Do you believe you can die in unrepentant sin (Such as lying etc) and still be saved?

[SeaBass]

will a hundred trillion do? you see my entering Heaven does not depend on what I do, it depends on what Jesus Christ does. He is my Saviour, not me. He has chosen me, made me His own, made me accounted as righteous before God, is sanctifying me, and will present me perfect before Him. He won't be hindered by a mere hundred trillion sins. He knew about those when He called me.

you see I sin all the time. How much I ought to love the Father, but I am conscious that my love is so small most of the time. I even sometimes grumble at His ways. Think of that! How much I ought to love Jesus Christ. But my love for Him, whilst genuine, comes far short of what it should be all the time. What chance do I have when I am so sinful all the time? The answer is JESUS. HE loves Me.



No sin can enter Heaven. That's why when I die Christ will finally purify me from all sin, just as He will the living at the rapture. He will present me perfect before Him CLOTHED IN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST (2 Cor 5.21).



That is two questions. Have I a license to sin? NO NO NO If I sin will it affect me entering Heaven? NO NO NO

You see wherever my list of sins may be when I enter Heaven, it will have written across it 'tetelestai' (it is finished, the price has been paid).

Thank you Lord Jesus Christ.

My point is if one can get one sin into heaven then why not get a trillion? That idea gives the Christian a license to sin when he has none.

Again, if the Christian does not have to repent of his sins in order to gain forgiveness/be cleansed of that sin by the blood of Christ (1 Jn 1:7), then what purpose did Christ die for?

One must be in Christ to be clothed in Christ's righteousness but one that does not repent of his sins will not unconditionally remain in Christ, he will fall from Christ and no longer be clothed by Christ's righteousness. No verse says one gets in Christ unconditionally or can remain in Christ unconditionally...that's another phantom verses of eternal security.


Unconditional versus conditional

Eternal Security falsely claims salvation is UNconditional, one cannot lose salvation under any condition.

The bible says the Christian must CONDITIONALLY repent in order to remain in Christ and have all his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.

So we have another thread with eternal securists trying to find a way to get the impenitent Christian saved while remaining in his unforgiven, uncleansed sins.

The man-made idea of unconditional eternal security clashes with the bible's teaching on the necessity of the Christian to conditionally repent of his sins in order to have his sins cleansed away by the blood of Christ.


Therefore the idea that salvation is unconditional leads to giving the Christian a licenses to unconditionally sin all he cares to and still be saved. You cannot have it both ways, you cannot on one hand claim salvation is unconditional yet on the other hand claim the Christian must conditionally live a certain way or conditional desire certain things.

So does the Christian have a license to unconditionally sin as he pleases as eternal security claims

or

must the Christian conditional behave a certain way to remain saved?

 

[SeaBass]

Not that I'm SeaBass' apologist or anything, but here is what he actually said:


He didn't say that God is not a God of love, but instead that God is not a God of love and nothing more. The and nothing more denotes that He believes that God is a God of love and he was apparently stating that God is a God of justice too. Personally, I see no distinction between the two in that I believe that love and justice work together just fine, but we really shouldn't twist peoples' words and apply to them meanings which they never intended.

I get accused of saying many things I have not ever said. Straw men thrive on this forum.

 

[dcontroversal]

The verses that teach lying and tempting God are sinful are the ones that teach those that do such things will be lost.

Where's the phantom verse that say those who unrepentantly lie and tempt God's Spirit are saved?

The bible teaches that God's grace OUTBOUNDS a believers sin......so when are you going to trust Jesus and come online as a true believer? Instead of trusting into your works, water and COC membership you should trust Jesus and his faith/work/blood.

 

[Bookends]

Yet the bible teaches the Christian must CONDITIONALLY repent of his sins or else perish. So eternal securists are now trying to find a way to get the Christian who sins a way to get around those sins WITHOUT CONDITIONALLY repenting of his sins.

No, it's a one time repentance and acknowledgment of our fallen state before a perfect and holy God. It's also having the faith that God sent His son to suffer and die for our sins, past, present and future. If a believer turns from Christ then I'd semi agree with you, but their not lost, not until they die without Christ. We have an ongoing attitude of repentance because we know sin hinders our relationship with God and our effectiveness in doing His will, mainly witnessing.

Just because a Christians slips up and sins doesn't mean they have turned from following Christ, doesn't mean they lost their salvation, it just means they stumbled. IMO, a true Christian will repent of this, if he/she is aware of it. It they don't repent, then perhaps they never had Christ to being with.

 

[purgedconscience]

I get accused of saying many things I have not ever said. Straw men thrive on this forum.

Don't sweat it. From now on, I'll research every claim that I hear on this forum to determine whether or not they're true. Ultimately, God knows what we've said and what we haven't said and we'll all give an account for every idle word which we have spoken. That alone ought to strike fear into our hearts, but some seem to have foolishly cast off the fear of the Lord altogether.

 

[dcontroversal]

I get accused of saying many things I have not ever said. Straw men thrive on this forum.

This is rich coming from you HAHAH WOW.......

 

[SeaBass]

It strikes me that what you are trying to say is God is a God of love but this includes just and righteousness.

The way you wrote it would imply you do not like the emphasis on love being above justice and righteousness, but for me it is actually inseparable. Righteousness or doing the right thing, is implicit on doing what is appropriate in every situation.
To stop murderers, those who abuse, missuse and are dangerous is part of showing love to those being attacked and the wider community.

It causes people problems if you word things the way you have, but I think that is your intention. I just wonder why you want to create this impression? You could so easily not do so, or is this a kind of trap, testing if people actually read carefully what you are writing?

Many places the bible says God is just. That means God cannot, does not ignore sin, even sin committed by Christians. Therefore God will punish sin regardless of who commit it. Christians are not immune from God's justice.

My point is some people put too much emphasis on the love of God thinking God's love will prevent Him from punishing those that sin. God's justice will not let that happen. A Christian who sins and will not repent of that sin will face God's justice on the day of judgment.

 

[purgedconscience]

No, it's a one time repentance and acknowledgment of our fallen state before a perfect and holy God. It's also having the faith that God sent His son to suffer and die for our sins, past, present and future. If a believer turns from Christ then I'd semi agree with you, but their not lost, not until they die without Christ. We have an ongoing attitude of repentance because we know sin hinders our relationship with God and our effectiveness in doing His will, mainly witnessing.

Just because a Christians slips up and sins doesn't mean they have turned from following Christ, doesn't mean they lost their salvation, it just means they stumbled. IMO, a true Christian will repent of this, if he/she is aware of it. It they don't repent, then perhaps they never had Christ to being with.

I'm sorry, but how does a one time repentance that you mentioned coincide with the ongoing attitude of repentance that you also just mentioned? It seems to me that you're actually agreeing with what SeaBass said while you're disagreeing with him.

 

[SeaBass]

. . . thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God . . . Acts 5:4

Does the scripture say they went to heaven or hell or are you assuming they went to hell?

Rev 21:8 liars will be in the lake of fire, so there is no assumption on my part. How many liars/lies will make it into heaven? None.

The error being made here is by those that are trying to get an impenitent Christian into heaven while carrying all of his uncleansed sins with him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

What attribute did they contribute to God that blasphemed his name? What was spoken "against the Holy Spirit"?
They lied to God . . . Period. That is what scripture says - They will be judged by God in the end - no need to read any more into it than is there.

Yes, we can "grieve" the Holy Spirit . . What is it to grieve someone? - Make them unhappy, make them disappointed . . I am sure that sometimes God is disappointed/unhappy with some of the things that we do - but still - nothing separates us from the love of God - no fault or failure stops God from loving us and encouraging us - just as we as earthly parents feel about our kids.

Well you gave verse 4 and I suggest you read the verse right before that if you believe the blasphemy was only against God by them lying;

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

Apostle Peter clearly said they lied to the Holy Spirit, which is a blasphemy to the Spirit.
If you want to have them still have salvation then you are saying they were forgiven of this blasphemy, which is completely against what the Lord Jesus said. They were struck dead by the Spirit because of their blasphemy against Him......

Grieving the Holy Spirit does mean you upset Him, because you denied His guidance and continue to do your own sinful things................You wandered from the truth, in which Apostle James 5:19-20 says that only if you return to the Lord will your soul be saved. Repenting of what you did is the only way to return.......

Apostle Paul says do not neglect the gifts of the Holy Spirit also, which those who say they don't exist are neglecting them.
For he shows only if you do not neglect the gifts and continue in all the doctrine teachings of Christ will you be saved, and also those who listen to you will be saved to for knowing and following the truth.

Lying to the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against Him !!!

 

[SeaBass]

The only condition I see is abiding in Christ. If you abide in Christ, you are eternally secure. Outside of Christ, well, no, there is no guarantee.

Eternal security says the Christian does NOT have to CONDITIONALLY abide in Christ yet still be saved. You agree with that?

 

[dcontroversal]

Rev 21:8 liars will be in the lake of fire, so there is no assumption on my part. How many liars/lies will make it into heaven? None.

The error being made here is by those that are trying to get an impenitent Christian into heaven while carrying all of his uncleansed sins with him.

There is no such thing...you are either in Christ and your life hid in Christ with the grace of God bounding ahead of your sin or your lost......someone who is found under the banner of a liar is unforgiven and has not had the blood applied....the child of God loses rewards...Not salvation...you really should pay more attention to the word.....

 

[purgedconscience]

Many places the bible says God is just. That means God cannot, does not ignore sin, even sin committed by Christians. Therefore God will punish sin regardless of who commit it. Christians are not immune from God's justice.

My point is some people put too much emphasis on the love of God thinking God's love will prevent Him from punishing those that sin. God's justice will not let that happen. A Christian who sins and will not repent of that sin will face God's justice on the day of judgment.

I would have worded your original comments a bit differently than you did, but I figured that this is what you were attempting to say and I personally agree with what you stated. Eternal life is in Christ and we need to truly abide in Him to maintain the same. If we depart from Christ Who is the source of eternal life, then we're not eternally secure, but eternally lost. This doesn't mean that I believe it's one slip up and you're lost, but I do believe that our hearts can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to the point where we can depart from the living God. We'd be wise to heed God's exhortation to harden not our hearts when we hear His voice on any day that is called today as we're admonished to in Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 and Psalm 95. Yes, we ought to be daily exhorting one another and all the more as we see the day of Christ's return approaching, but apparently some people here aren't too fond of such exhortations.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well you gave verse 4 and I suggest you read the verse right before that if you believe the blasphemy was only against God by them lying;

Acts 5:3
But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

Apostle Peter clearly said they lied to the Holy Spirit, which is a blasphemy to the Spirit.
If you want to have them still have salvation then you are saying they were forgiven of this blasphemy, which is completely against what the Lord Jesus said. They were struck dead by the Spirit because of their blasphemy against Him......

Grieving the Holy Spirit does mean you upset Him, because you denied His guidance and continue to do your own sinful things................You wandered from the truth, in which Apostle James 5:19-20 says that only if you return to the Lord will your soul be saved. Repenting of what you did is the only way to return.......

Apostle Paul says do not neglect the gifts of the Holy Spirit also, which those who say they don't exist are neglecting them.
For he shows only if you do not neglect the gifts and continue in all the doctrine teachings of Christ will you be saved, and also those who listen to you will be saved to for knowing and following the truth.

Lying to the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against Him !!!

Actually, blasphemy of the H.S. is attributing the work of Christ to the power of the devil and is a permanent state of UNBELIEF which is why it is unforgivable........!

 

[SeaBass]

There are NO verses which state that they went to hell....that is a man made false doctrine by all who are ignorant of eternal security.....In Ephesians the brothers are called SAINTS by Paul and he also tells them to not LIE to each other, steal from each other etc. and they are identified as the saved children of God....you can your other buddies can forget it....there are NO verses which state they ended up in hell period...and while I am at it....for the other one who believes you can lose salvation.....blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is UNBELIEF and while in unbelief the blood cannot be applied which is an unforgivable state!

What verse says they went to heaven?
What phantom verses teach one can lie and tempt the Spirit of God and be saved anyway?

Those saints in Ephesus, would they lose their salvation if they did lie to each other, if they did steal from each other? Eternal security says all Christians that lie and steal have their place in heaven. If the Christian cannot lose his salvation under any condition then it would not matter at all if they lied and stole from each other for the lying and stealing would not change a thing.

 

[SeaBass]

The bible teaches that God's grace OUTBOUNDS a believers sin......so when are you going to trust Jesus and come online as a true believer? Instead of trusting into your works, water and COC membership you should trust Jesus and his faith/work/blood.

God's grace did not automatically, unconditionally cover the sins of Ananias and Saffhira.

 

[dcontroversal]

I would have worded your original comments a bit differently than you did, but I figured that this is what you were attempting to say and I personally agree with what you stated. Eternal life is in Christ and we need to truly abide in Him to maintain the same. If we depart from Christ Who is the source of eternal life, then we're not eternally secure, but eternally lost. This doesn't mean that I believe it's one slip up and you're lost, but I do believe that our hearts can be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to the point where we can depart from the living God. We'd be wise to heed God's exhortation to harden not our hearts when we hear His voice on any day that is called today as we're admonished to in Hebrews chapters 3 and 4 and Psalm 95. Yes, we ought to be daily exhorting one another and all the more as we see the day of Christ's return approaching, but apparently some people here aren't too fond of such exhortations.

So then your definition of eternal is actually temporary? And you believe you are greater than God? I am in the Father's hand, in the hand of Christ, sealed with the spirit of promise and my bible teaches that WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL...not temporary.....

So, you believe that you keep yourself saved? Right?

 

[kennethcadwell]

No, it's a one time repentance and acknowledgment of our fallen state before a perfect and holy God. It's also having the faith that God sent His son to suffer and die for our sins, past, present and future. If a believer turns from Christ then I'd semi agree with you, but their not lost, not until they die without Christ. We have an ongoing attitude of repentance because we know sin hinders our relationship with God and our effectiveness in doing His will, mainly witnessing.

Just because a Christians slips up and sins doesn't mean they have turned from following Christ, doesn't mean they lost their salvation, it just means they stumbled. IMO, a true Christian will repent of this, if he/she is aware of it. It they don't repent, then perhaps they never had Christ to being with.

This is where people have been mislead in a false teaching as the bible does not teach a one time repentance to cover all sins........


Lord Jesus gives us an example of how repentance works in a standard easy for anybody to understand in Luke 17:3-4.
In this verse it shows that only when the person repents each time they have wronged are they to be forgiven. He does not say they are to be forgiven rather or not they repent, for He says if they have sinned 7 times in a day and came back and repented each time, then they are to be forgiven.

 

[posthuman]

God's grace did not automatically, unconditionally cover the sins of Ananias and Saffhira.

if physical punishment and death is evidence of eternal condemnation, no man has ever been saved, but Elijah & Enoch.

 

[SeaBass]

No, it's a one time repentance and acknowledgment of our fallen state before a perfect and holy God. It's also having the faith that God sent His son to suffer and die for our sins, past, present and future. If a believer turns from Christ then I'd semi agree with you, but their not lost, not until they die without Christ. We have an ongoing attitude of repentance because we know sin hinders our relationship with God and our effectiveness in doing His will, mainly witnessing.

Just because a Christians slips up and sins doesn't mean they have turned from following Christ, doesn't mean they lost their salvation, it just means they stumbled. IMO, a true Christian will repent of this, if he/she is aware of it. It they don't repent, then perhaps they never had Christ to being with.

What verse says the Christian must repent just one time for all times?

Lk 17:3,4 repentance is not a one time event no more than forgiveness is just a one time event.


Christians do on occasions commit sin but they must repent of that sin and not continue on as if nothing happen. God knows about the sin and will do something about it. Saffhira had a chance to repent, did not and God did something about it.