-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C
Therapron,
On page 57 of your e-book you said that the Holy Spirit revealed to John, 'the future state of the Church of Christ' and then mentioned that she was to be persecuted for 1260 days (1260 prophetic years), the body of Christ being Jewish and Gentile Christians. And, else where from your reckoning, 1948 is the end of that persecution.
From what I gather so far, I can accept 1948 as the end of the Jewish Christian's persecution, but how does the Gentile Christian's persecution fit into the return of the Jews to their homeland in order for us to be included in that 'future state of the Church of Christ' prophecy? Or are you saying that Rev 12:6-11 was specifically for the Jewish Christian?
On page 57 of your e-book you said that the Holy Spirit revealed to John, 'the future state of the Church of Christ' and then mentioned that she was to be persecuted for 1260 days (1260 prophetic years), the body of Christ being Jewish and Gentile Christians. And, else where from your reckoning, 1948 is the end of that persecution.
From what I gather so far, I can accept 1948 as the end of the Jewish Christian's persecution, but how does the Gentile Christian's persecution fit into the return of the Jews to their homeland in order for us to be included in that 'future state of the Church of Christ' prophecy? Or are you saying that Rev 12:6-11 was specifically for the Jewish Christian?
T
If we have the Holy Spirit who "will lead you into all truth," and we are deluded, then we are either not listening to Him or or it is a self-inflicted delusion. If we are humbly walking in the Lord and the enemy deceives us, the Lord will defend us. How can we know? . . .
Isaiah 59:19 (KJV) "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him."
But if we willfully delude ourselves, who then can defend us? While writing, I would occasionally get a tiny little check in my spirit from the Lord, that maybe I didn't really understand the verse I was so confidently writing about. Oh, I could have kept right on writing, nobody would've noticed and I'd have sounded real Orthodox, but the Holy Spirit would have stopped giving me those little checks and those seemingly insignificant little errors would have influenced everything I wrote from then on, error compounded upon error.
That's the way many of our sacred traditions have grown into the counter-scriptural monstrosities we so blindly rely on today. So in my opinion, it's not the enemy's delusions we need to worry about, the Lord will expose them by Scripture if we'll just listen; it's prideful self-delusion that we really need to fear.
Isaiah 59:19 (KJV) "When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him."
But if we willfully delude ourselves, who then can defend us? While writing, I would occasionally get a tiny little check in my spirit from the Lord, that maybe I didn't really understand the verse I was so confidently writing about. Oh, I could have kept right on writing, nobody would've noticed and I'd have sounded real Orthodox, but the Holy Spirit would have stopped giving me those little checks and those seemingly insignificant little errors would have influenced everything I wrote from then on, error compounded upon error.
That's the way many of our sacred traditions have grown into the counter-scriptural monstrosities we so blindly rely on today. So in my opinion, it's not the enemy's delusions we need to worry about, the Lord will expose them by Scripture if we'll just listen; it's prideful self-delusion that we really need to fear.
Last edited by a moderator:
T
If we stand back and look at the whole Christian era, we noticed that three momentous events (prophesied in Scripture to the exact year), have now taken place:
1) the building of the Islamic Dome of the Rock in 688 A.D..
2) the new nation of Israel established in 1948 A.D..
3) the freeing of Jerusalem of Jerusalem from Gentile control in 1967 A.D..
Throughout Revelation you'll see phrases like this: "song of Moses and the lamb," or "reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints."
Why do we see New Testament believers described as two different groups? Because during the Christian era, the Lord has Two Witnesses to His sovereignty, the Gentile church and the Jewish people. So in my opinion, most of Revelation is about both groups unless they are addressed separately as in chapter 7.
By the way, the quote on page 57 that you attribute to me, was actually written in 1659 A.D. by the Anabaptist theologian, Thielman van Bragh. It was so identified on page 59. As a result, we need to view his conclusions from his knowledge base at his time. Though I generally agree, if van Braght were to write his book today, there are a few things he might say a little differently. <smile>
1) the building of the Islamic Dome of the Rock in 688 A.D..
2) the new nation of Israel established in 1948 A.D..
3) the freeing of Jerusalem of Jerusalem from Gentile control in 1967 A.D..
Throughout Revelation you'll see phrases like this: "song of Moses and the lamb," or "reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints."
Why do we see New Testament believers described as two different groups? Because during the Christian era, the Lord has Two Witnesses to His sovereignty, the Gentile church and the Jewish people. So in my opinion, most of Revelation is about both groups unless they are addressed separately as in chapter 7.
By the way, the quote on page 57 that you attribute to me, was actually written in 1659 A.D. by the Anabaptist theologian, Thielman van Bragh. It was so identified on page 59. As a result, we need to view his conclusions from his knowledge base at his time. Though I generally agree, if van Braght were to write his book today, there are a few things he might say a little differently. <smile>
Last edited by a moderator:
T
I forgot to add, if you look at photographs of Islamic Jihadists today, you will notice that they all have a green and white band tied around their foreheads and another around their wrists that give praises to their god. Also notice that they are masked. The righteous have no need to hide their faces, only the wicked do.
C
Therapron,
Would you expound on the two witnesses in Rev 11:8-11. Specifically, the timing on the chart on page 123. I actually studied the chart and can say without a doubt that you are not predicting a date of Christ's return but a time frame, based on the return Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews.
What is your understanding of those 3 1/2 days?
Would you expound on the two witnesses in Rev 11:8-11. Specifically, the timing on the chart on page 123. I actually studied the chart and can say without a doubt that you are not predicting a date of Christ's return but a time frame, based on the return Israel and Jerusalem to the Jews.
What is your understanding of those 3 1/2 days?
T
First off, I don't believe the Bible gives the exact day or year of the Lord's return, at least I've not been able to find it in some 35 years of looking. What Bible prophecy does provably predict is 1) the return of the Jews to the holy land, 2) the restoration of Israel in 1948 A.D. and 3) the freeing of Jerusalem from Gentile control in 1967 A.D..
Revelation 11:3-4 states that the time of the Two Witnesses to the Gentile world would be 1260 days. the Jews were again in sovereign control of their homeland in 1948 A.D., so the time of the Two Witnesses should be over. Using the Ezekiel 4:6 definition that prophetic days should be understood as years, we look back from when the new nation of Israel was established in 1948 to see what happened 1260 years earlier.
In 688 A.D., the Arab Caliph Abd el Malik Ibn Marwan began construction of the Islamic Dome of the Rock, a Memorial to Muhammad, on the Temple mount of God most holy. God predicted both events to the exact year . . .
1948 A.D. -1260 = 688 A.D.! It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out, a first grader with his smart phone could do it with his eyes shut <smile>.
Revelation 11:8-13 you are questioning, is God's prediction about the future of Jerusalem from 688 A.D. until the return of the Lord Jesus. This is fully explained in the Hour, Day, Month and Year prophecy of Revelation 9:14-17, fully explained in a later segment of the Study Guide, but we've got to get there in logical order or the exegesis won't make any sense.
Revelation 11:3-4 states that the time of the Two Witnesses to the Gentile world would be 1260 days. the Jews were again in sovereign control of their homeland in 1948 A.D., so the time of the Two Witnesses should be over. Using the Ezekiel 4:6 definition that prophetic days should be understood as years, we look back from when the new nation of Israel was established in 1948 to see what happened 1260 years earlier.
In 688 A.D., the Arab Caliph Abd el Malik Ibn Marwan began construction of the Islamic Dome of the Rock, a Memorial to Muhammad, on the Temple mount of God most holy. God predicted both events to the exact year . . .
1948 A.D. -1260 = 688 A.D.! It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out, a first grader with his smart phone could do it with his eyes shut <smile>.
Revelation 11:8-13 you are questioning, is God's prediction about the future of Jerusalem from 688 A.D. until the return of the Lord Jesus. This is fully explained in the Hour, Day, Month and Year prophecy of Revelation 9:14-17, fully explained in a later segment of the Study Guide, but we've got to get there in logical order or the exegesis won't make any sense.
Last edited by a moderator:
M
SO True! Most local churches of today are run like corporations who have one eye on their biblical duties and the other eye on their reputation and pocketbook. Though I agree we are to be wise stewards of what God gives us, the local church is NOT the individual Christian so much as a ministry that is SUPPOSED to have empty pockets waiting to be filled by their faith. Without a test of faith there's no challenge to the congregation to follow the example of the church in charity and faith. It's not a wonder that so few people go to the local church for charity and provision rather than the government. They don't think that true riches are found there anymore.
T
Very few really understand what I'm trying to get across. As stated in the original post, there is absolutely no salvation apart from the shed blood of the Lord Jesus!!!
That's so important I'm going to say it again: There is absolutely no salvation apart from the shed blood of the Lord Jesus!!!
However, many believe that a head knowledge of the gospel is also necessary for salvation. I do not believe that to be true. I can give 100 verses to support the position, A couple should suffice . . .
1Samuel 16:7 "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."
I sometimes paraphrase that verse because I believe it could also be the Lord's underlying intent for the verse: "Man looketh upon the denomination or the doctrinal preference, but the Lord looketh upon the heart." Point being, I don't think doctrinal knowledge, right or wrong, has any bearing whatsoever upon a Christian's walk or his salvation. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth through God's word if we have a humble, contrite and heart hungry to walk in truth.
To prove it, just look at what Jesus said to a crowd of Jews . . .
Matthew 23:2-3 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Now there probably wasn't any worse doctrine on Earth than the doctrine of the Pharisees, but that wasn't the Lord's concern, was it? No, He was concerned that people humbly walk in whatever light they had, regardless of what that light might be.
That point is significant because on these forums we read endless debates about whatever the poster's traditional hot-button might happen to be, but precious little about what's really important, a humble and contrite walk before the Lord and how to get there. I'm 86 now. The closer I come to being with the Lord, the less concerned I get about my doctrine or anyone else's. I just want to walk in any way that is pleasing to my Lord.
That's so important I'm going to say it again: There is absolutely no salvation apart from the shed blood of the Lord Jesus!!!
However, many believe that a head knowledge of the gospel is also necessary for salvation. I do not believe that to be true. I can give 100 verses to support the position, A couple should suffice . . .
1Samuel 16:7 "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."
I sometimes paraphrase that verse because I believe it could also be the Lord's underlying intent for the verse: "Man looketh upon the denomination or the doctrinal preference, but the Lord looketh upon the heart." Point being, I don't think doctrinal knowledge, right or wrong, has any bearing whatsoever upon a Christian's walk or his salvation. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth through God's word if we have a humble, contrite and heart hungry to walk in truth.
To prove it, just look at what Jesus said to a crowd of Jews . . .
Matthew 23:2-3 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Now there probably wasn't any worse doctrine on Earth than the doctrine of the Pharisees, but that wasn't the Lord's concern, was it? No, He was concerned that people humbly walk in whatever light they had, regardless of what that light might be.
That point is significant because on these forums we read endless debates about whatever the poster's traditional hot-button might happen to be, but precious little about what's really important, a humble and contrite walk before the Lord and how to get there. I'm 86 now. The closer I come to being with the Lord, the less concerned I get about my doctrine or anyone else's. I just want to walk in any way that is pleasing to my Lord.
M
M
I have been called a Calvinist so many times the handle has become a bit tedious... because most today are only familiar with the type of Calvinism that breeds an apathy to love for God as opposed to acceptance of subservience. However, it is obvious to me that so work is done in the heart of carnal man without the workings of the Holy Spirit to do that thing that the Father has purposed. The world esteemed him stricken until it was time for them to behold His glory. Not all see it, though. Why not? Because the Father just hasn't sent the Spirit to MAKE a love and desire for Him happen. If a sovereign God can inspire and preserve a letter, why is it doubtful He can call and preserve a precious soul as His own?