Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[rogerg]

The simple truth is that calvinism totally fails to understand the simplicity of free will. You keep thinking that God decides what people do. Yes, He does permit man and angel to do many things. But the choice to do them comes from the man or angel. And you don't seem to understand that.

It is clear from Scripture that God created man with freedom to choose. The first example is found in the garden of Eden. A& E chose to eat the forbidden fruit. They were FREE to do it. That is free will.

Really? So how then do you and Live4Him2, understand these verses relative to the above? I don't hold out much hope
that you will be able to comprehend them, but I guess the old saying is true that hope springs eternal

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[rogerg]

his is just another fallacy of the calvinists. Free will is simply the freedom to choose between available options. But calvinists like to describe it like some sort of monster with the power to "usurp" God and His sovereignty.

Poppycock. Freedom to choose is what free will is. Nothing more. Man cannot choose what isn't available.

Oh wait -- these verses too. What do you think they mean? It sounds like the ones who walked away thought the same
way you guys do - they didn't like what Jesus told them

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Live4Him2]

Really? So how then do you and Live4Him2, understand these verses relative to the above? I don't hold out much hope
that you will be able to comprehend them, but I guess the old saying is true that hope springs eternal

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

How do I understand these verses?

I understand them in the exact manner that both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul interpreted them:

Matthew chapter 13

[10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Again:

Acts chapter 28

[23] And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
[24] And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
[25] And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
[26] Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
[27] For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[28] Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Why didn't these people "see" or "hear"?

"FOR" or because "their hearts were waxed gross" or had become stupid or callous:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3975/kjv/tr/0-1/

Furthermore, "their ears were dull of hearing", or, as we read elsewhere in scripture, they were uncircumcised in their ears (Jeremiah 6:10, Acts 7:31).

Further still, "their eyes HAVE THEY CLOSED".

God didn't close them.

THEY DID.

If they were willing to see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and be converted, then God would heal them or save them.

Salvation is a matter of whether or not anyone believes the gospel or the report which God has given in relation to his Son, Jesus Christ:

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? " (Romans 10:16)

Here, then, is that report:

Isaiah chapter 53

[1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned everyone to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Even as we just read, "ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned EVERYONE to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

What is it about the words "all" and "everyone" that you don't understand?

Jesus died for "the iniquity of us ALL", and now it is just a matter of who chooses to believe this report.

It's really that simple.

P.S.

Don't forget to leave your trademark red "x"...as if you're somehow going to "x" out the truth of God's word.

 

[rogerg]

How do I understand these verses?

I understand them in the exact manner that both Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul interpreted them:

No, apparently no you don't. FYI Jesus was God, He wrote the Bible. He didn't need to interpret it

Why didn't these people "see" or "hear"?

"FOR" or because "their hearts were waxed gross" or had become stupid or callous:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g3975/kjv/tr/0-1/

Furthermore, "their ears were dull of hearing", or, as we read elsewhere in scripture, they were uncircumcised in their ears (Jeremiah 6:10, Acts 7:31).

Further still, "their eyes HAVE THEY CLOSED".

God didn't close them.

THEY DID.

If they were willing to see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and be converted, then God would heal them or save them.

Oh my -you insert doctrines into scripture that scripture doesn't indicate nor can support. You know, if you make stuff up
as you go along, you can come up with any conclusion you want to, but that's not the way to read/interpret the Bible.

The reason they couldn't hear or see was because "he had blinded them", not because they were callous or for any other reason.
It had nothing at all to do with their willingness. For the disciples eyes to be opened or to hear they had to be so blessed
by God and given spiritual eyes that see and spiritual ears that hear - not by physical eyes or ears. Without that happening, no one
can hear or see spiritually.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Look, I'm not going to go through each and every absurd interpretation you've put forth to correct them or I'll be doing it all weekend.
I'm going to summarize my reply with what Jesus told them which is what made them walk away: no man can come to Christ unless it were given him of the father. Now, work with that and see if you can figure out how and where it applies. The rest of the Bible, pertaining the receiving of salvation, is based upon that.

 

[Live4Him2]

Oh my -you insert doctrines into scripture that scripture doesn't indicate nor can support. You know, if you make stuff up as you go along, you can come up with any conclusion you want to, but that's not the way to read/interpret the Bible.

Oh, the irony!

The reason they couldn't hear or see was because "he had blinded them", not because they were callous or for any other reason. It had nothing at all to do with their willingness.

So, you reject the words of both Jesus and Paul?

Why am I not surprised?

Grieved for your soul, but definitely not surprised.

Let's try this again:

Matthew chapter 13

[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

These people were "blinded" BECAUSE "THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED; LEST AT ANY TIME THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES".

Got it?

For the disciples eyes to be opened or to hear they had to be so blessed
by God and given spiritual eyes that see and spiritual ears that hear - not by physical eyes or ears. Without that happening, no one
can hear or see spiritually.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

No and yes.

For example, we read:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. " (Rev. 2:7)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." (Rev. 2:17)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev. 2:29)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev. 3:6)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev. 3:13)

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev. 3:22)

In all seven verses that I just cited, JESUS CHRIST was the one speaking.

Do you believe the words of JESUS CHRIST?

If you do, then you must recognize that there are TWO VARIABLES involved when it comes to "hearing":

1. He that hath an ear.
2. What the Spirit saith.

Got it?

Despite this TRUTH, you say:

For the disciples eyes to be opened or to hear they had to be so blessed by God and given spiritual eyes that see and spiritual ears that hear - not by physical eyes or ears. Without that happening, no one
can hear or see spiritually.

Contrary to your erroneous claim, God did NOT give them "spiritual ears that hear".

NO, instead, it was THEIR OWN EARS which were either going to "hear what the Spirit saith" or be STOPPED to the same.

So, which one of these two options did the people choose in the scenario that we're presently discussing?

There's no need to guess because JESUS CHRIST told us exactly which option they chose:

Matthew chapter 13

[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
[15] For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

It was THEIR EARS which were dull of hearing, and that is because they had for so long stopped them to what the Spirit of God was saying.

We see this CLEARLY here:

Acts chapter 7

[51] Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
[52] Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
[53] Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
[54] When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
[55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
[57] Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
[58] And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

This is where you apparently miss it. In other words, you stubbornly refuse to recognize that, throughout the ages, multitudes of people have WILLFULLY REJECTED the strivings of the Holy Spirt/Ghost, the one whom JESUS SAID would "reprove THE WORLD of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8).

Look, I'm not going to go through each and every absurd interpretation you've put forth to correct them or I'll be doing it all weekend.

There's nothing the least bit "absurd" in anything that I've shared here thus far.

At the same time, what is truly "absurd" in your belief in the ABDUCTING, RAPING, IMPRISONING SADISTIC MONSTER that you call "god". I refuse to even capitalize it because this "god" in whom you believe is a false "god".

I'm going to summarize my reply with what Jesus told them which is what made them walk away: no man can come to Christ unless it were given him of the father. Now, work with that and see if you can figure out how and where it applies. The rest of the Bible, pertaining the receiving of salvation, is based upon that.

Here's what Jesus said:

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65)

And...?

I have no problem whatsoever with what Jesus said.

It's your forced interpretation upon what he said that is the problem.

Let me ask you a question...

If I were to say to you, "No one can call me on the phone, except I give them my phone number", would you conclude that to mean that everyone I give my phone number to is going to call me?

Apparently, based upon your understanding of this verse in question, that is exactly how you would wrongly interpret it.

In reality, just because I give, let's say, 100 people my phone number, this does not mean that all 100 people are going to call me.

In the same manner, just because God gives 100 people the ability to come to him, this does not mean that all 100 people are necessarily going to come to him.

I mean, earlier, in this same exact exchange, Jesus said:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)

Does everyone who the Father draws come to Jesus?

NO, THEY DON'T.

How can I be so emphatically sure?

Well, because JESUS CHRIST himself told us so in this same exact gospel of John:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32)

Jesus said that ALL MEN, which you conveniently need to change to "all of the elect", would be drawn unto him when he was "lifted up" (John 3:14, 12:33) or crucified.

Is everybody saved?

Of course not.

Why not?

I mean, according to your faulty logic, everyone was drawn to Jesus, and no one can come to Jesus unless God draws them, so, therefore, everyone must be saved.

Do you see YOUR error?

Anyhow, no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws them, or "no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (I Cor. 12:3), AND PEOPLE CAN RESIST THE STRIVINGS OF THE HOLY GHOST...even as I've already documented.

Renounce Calvin's false "god".

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
The simple truth is that calvinism totally fails to understand the simplicity of free will. You keep thinking that God decides what people do. Yes, He does permit man and angel to do many things. But the choice to do them comes from the man or angel. And you don't seem to understand that.

It is clear from Scripture that God created man with freedom to choose. The first example is found in the garden of Eden. A& E chose to eat the forbidden fruit. They were FREE to do it. That is free will.

Really? So how then do you and Live4Him2, understand these verses relative to the above?

It is really shocking that a believer would argue against the obvious meaning of free will, that being simply the freedom to choose between available options.

I don't hold out much hope that you will be able to comprehend them, but I guess the old saying is true that hope springs eternal [Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]

Now to explain this paragraph to you.

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Right, Isa 10:9,10. Did you know this passage from the OT is quoted several times in the NT?

I think the passage where these verses are quoted show it the best:

Acts 28-
25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “ ‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’
28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

Red words describe the people's heart; become calloused. In the Greek, there are a number of words in which the voice can be either middle or passive, which is determined by context. So "become calloused" could be either middle (they did it to themselves) or passive (it was done to them).

Blue words: The context show that "hardly hearing" and "have closed their eyes" are both active voice, showing the people performed the actions. Therefore, the action of becoming calloused can be seen to be middle voice, which means they did it to themselves.

Green words refers to God's action IF they had opened their eyes/ears, understood with THEIR hearts and "turn" (repent): God would have healed them.

iow, when people listen, learn and respond, God acts.

We find the exact same principle in Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

This is a very clear verse about how God acts WHEN people "turn to the Lord": He will have MERCY on them, and FREELY PARDON.

To most calvinists, this would seem like God is somehow beholden to the choices of man. But that's because of their faulty understanding of free will and God's grace.

When people choose correctly, God responds in grace. That simple.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
his is just another fallacy of the calvinists. Free will is simply the freedom to choose between available options. But calvinists like to describe it like some sort of monster with the power to "usurp" God and His sovereignty.

Poppycock. Freedom to choose is what free will is. Nothing more. Man cannot choose what isn't available.

Oh wait -- these verses too.

It's like talking over your head. You respond to nothing at all. All you do is wait for your turn to talk more. Why don't you just slow down and address the definition of free will. Or would that be too challenging? Or revealing?

What do you think they mean?

I'd much rather see what you think of the definition of free will; not the calvinist mangled one but the one I have given you.

It sounds like the ones who walked away thought the same way you guys do - they didn't like what Jesus told them

[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

What do you think these verses show?

You need to address the definition of what free will really is, and stop all this dodging.

Read v.65 above. I know what you think; it proves calvinism. Hardly. It's directly related to the principle of John 6:44 and 45.

44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

See? Pretty close to 6:65, isn't it.

Now, most calvinists stop at v.44, but v.45 actually explains who will come to Jesus.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Same principle as in Isa 55:7. God has taught everyone. But it's ONLY those who listened and learned (PAID ATTENTIO) who will come to Jesus.

Real simple.

 

[Live4Him2]

Right, Isa 10:9,10. Did you know this passage from the OT is quoted several times in the NT?

I'm sure that it was just a typo, but that is actually Isaiah 6:9-10.

I'm not mentioning this to be petty, but, rather, just in case anyone wants to look up that portion of scripture for themselves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm sure that it was just a typo, but that is actually Isaiah 6:9-10.

Yep. It sure was. Thanks for pointing that out. My bad all the way.

I'm not mentioning this to be petty, but, rather, just in case anyone wants to look up that portion of scripture for themselves.

Absolutely!! And thanks for doing so. I'd hate for someone to look up my typo and conclude accordingly.

 

[rogerg]

So, you reject the words of both Jesus and Paul?

Of course it's not the words of Jesus and Paul -- it's the conclusions and interpretations you impose on them

 

[Live4Him2]

Of course it's not the words of Jesus and Paul -- it's the conclusions and interpretations you impose on them

Nope.

No "impositions" whatsoever on my part.

I merely pointed out to you what they actually said in regard to people closing their own eyes.

You know, just like you refuse to see what's right before your very own eyes yourself.

 

[ChristianTonyB]

All who are saved by the Lamb of God are brought together with the Israel of God, and we await New Jerusalem.

All those born again of the Spirit of God, are members of the Israel of God. There is no longer any differentiation between Jew or Gentile, we are all made one in Christ Jesus, and that 'oneness' represents the new Israel of God.

 

[Duckybill]

he could have.

But then what would creation say about God?

would it not say God made them

Satan is not a man. Satan's sin did not cause the fall of mankind and the fall of the earth.

Nice try though

Amen! He could have if He wanted to. God didn't make even one mistake. He made everyone EXACTLY as He chose.

Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You are defending man's free will - (Which is not free, by the way, because man is not the ultimate determining factor, God is) - to the point that you would usurp God's Sovereignty.

You can elevate man's will all you want and I will continue to elevate God's Sovereignty. We shall see in the end which Glorifies God the most. However, I don't think one has to wait till the end to see the results, it is obvious which is Glorifying God in all things.

Yeah I am,

And I am defending Gods integrity and love.

You make it sound like mans free will is some powerful thing that Denys Gods sovereignty. its not. It is just mad as the ability to say yes God, I want what you paid for in your own blood. Or No God. I will do it my way, Keep you gift.

Niether destroys Gods sovereignty, Yet both prove Gods perfect love, in that he died even for those who will not recieve him.

Remember, As many as have recieved him he gave the power to be sons..

Not the other way around.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Amen! He could have if He wanted to. God didn't make even one mistake. He made everyone EXACTLY as He chose.

Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Yep
He made them with the ability to recieve his love.

He will nto force anyone to do so however. He made us in his image..

Thats why we keep searching for the thing that can fill that hole left when mankind left God. And never finding it. Because Only God can fill that hole.

Thankfully he left enough clues (romans 1) left enough people. And even sent the HS himself to show us that gospel truth. Or we would have no hope.. They have hope also. They just have a limited time to see their need and recieve it. Because once they die. Its too late.

 

[awelight]

This is just another fallacy of the calvinists. Free will is simply the freedom to choose between available options. But calvinists like to describe it like some sort of monster with the power to "usurp" God and His sovereignty.

Poppycock. Freedom to choose is what free will is. Nothing more. Man cannot choose what isn't available.

You are robotically answering my posts and taking no time to think the points through. Your answers follow not my responses but continue the same old tired nonsense.

Nice wasting time with you. Perhaps the Lord will enlighten you one day but for now I am done with this conversation. Feel free to get in the last word as you usually do,

 

[rogerg]

You make it sound like mans free will is some powerful thing that Denys Gods sovereignty. its not. It is just mad as the ability to say yes God, I want what you paid for in your own blood. Or No God. I will do it my way, Keep you gift.

Niether destroys Gods sovereignty, Yet both prove Gods perfect love, in that he died even for those who will not recieve him.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.


[Jhn 6:64-66 KJV]
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[awelight]

Again, the "god" that you're peddling here is SATAN.

I'll grant you that I could have/should have left off the word "friggin'", but you're straining at the proverbial gnat while simultaneously swallowing the proverbial camel.

Renounce your false "god".

No?

Then I'll continue to expose him for the false "god" that he is.

Yes I too could quote Scriptures from here to eternity to prove what is the Truth of Scripture. BUT apart from the New Birth it would and cannot be discerned by those who still meddle in spiritual things but only possess the spirit of this world.

Let's take this one point. You said: "You, in your heretical, Satanically-inspired belief system, need to change those words to “COULD NOT come”, but those of us who revere the words of Christ, and who have been born of the Spirit of truth, will not be fooled by your deceptive means."

First, I would never change the meaning of an obvious "black and white" text as it is written in the Koine Greek. However, I do compare Scripture with Scripture and study the whole Council of God not just what I like. You seem to be in LOVE with the Parable in Matthew 22 in an imbalanced kind of way.

What about the Parable in John 10: (Given here in part)

John 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.
John 10:12 He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them:
John 10:13 he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
John 10:15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.
John 10:17 Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
John 10:18 No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.
John 10:19 There arose a division again among the Jews because of these words.
John 10:20 And many of them said, He hath a demon, and is mad; why hear ye him?

I included verses 19 and 20 because what the people were saying about Jesus seems to be what you are saying about me.

In this parable we have Particular Redemption. Christ laid down His life for the "sheep". (V. 11, 15 and 17). A particular people are symbolized here by the term "sheep" In Scripture there are "Sheep" and "Goats", often used in contrast with one another. (Mat. 25:32 & 33; along with the "scape goat" of the Old Testament which was driven out of the camp. Does the "scape goat" driven from the camp sound familiar in Mat. 22:13?

Additionally, this Parable indicates that Christ "KNOWS" His own, (V. 14 and 16) and "IS KNOWN" by His Sheep. (V. 14). Looking at verses 14 and 15... we see that Christ's knowing of his own, is given the same weight as His knowing the Father and being known by His Father. Verses 14 and 15 are tied together with the Greek word: καθως, which carries the meaning of: "even as", "in the same way" or "inasmuch".

Secondly, as to your statement saying: "... need to change those words to “COULD NOT come”,

As mentioned earlier, I would not change what is clearly stated. However, I leave these verses, which I am sure you know because they are hated by all "free willist" and Arminians. These verses speak to man's inability to choose Jesus Christ.

1). Do too condition:
Rom 3:10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Rom 3:12 They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:

2). Because the Lord said it:
John_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John_6:65 And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

--- These are companion verses to what our Lord said above:
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

3). Because of Election, by God's good pleasure from all Eternity:
John_6:37 All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John_6:70 Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil?
John_10:29 My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
John 17:2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.

All these verses, just from the Book of John, saying the same thing. Satanically inspired?
Your problem with this and other Doctrines can be summed up in this verse:

John_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

 

[awelight]

Yeah I am,

And I am defending Gods integrity and love.

You make it sound like mans free will is some powerful thing that Denys Gods sovereignty. its not. It is just mad as the ability to say yes God, I want what you paid for in your own blood. Or No God. I will do it my way, Keep you gift.

Niether destroys Gods sovereignty, Yet both prove Gods perfect love, in that he died even for those who will not recieve him.

Remember, As many as have recieved him he gave the power to be sons..

Not the other way around.

In short, you are imbalanced in your view of God's Love. Love is just one of the many Attributes of God.

You said: "Remember, As many as have recieved him he gave the power to be sons." The verse actually says: But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12). Examining the Greek text, will show, that "as many as Received" are the ones God "gave" the right to become sons and are the same as the ones "believing"

The following verses show this with more clarity:

John 17:2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts_13:48 And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[awelight]

I guess where we disagree on this particular subject, awelight, is that the verses above do not identify which Israel is to be the kingdom since the Bible describes two Israels: one being of the flesh (earthy); one being of the spirit(heavenly). So, by looking only at those verses, I don't think we can make that determination. However, here are some other verses which may help to provide clarification

[1Co 10:18 KJV]
18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

[Jhn 3:3 KJV]
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV]
36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[1Co 15:50 KJV] 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[2Ti 4:18 KJV]
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

[Rev 3:12 KJV]
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.

[Rev 21:2 KJV]
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Well, Roger my friend, this is what I was getting at.

The Amillennial view tends to blur the distinction of the Kingdom with the subject of Salvation. Desiring to make Salvation and the Kingdom one and the same. It is not but it is tightly interwoven. Sometimes being called the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Salvation however, is required to "ENTER" into the Kingdom in it's final state. (John 3:5). For flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Flesh and blood means in our present state of being. To enter into the final state of the Kingdom one must not only be saved but must also possess the Glorified body, which is said to be flesh and bone because this body derives not it's life giving power from "blood" but from God Himself. This body is free of sin.

The Kingdom, as mentioned before, is not Salvation itself. Salvation has been and is and will be carried out in the same way. The Kingdom refers to Government. Israel was the one and only Theocratic Kingdom on earth. Their government was that of a Theocracy and the future Kingdom will also be a Theocracy. We know from the Old Testament, that Israel rejected the Theocracy and wanted to have a human King like all the other nations. God permitted this but retained the right to appoint the King. He also continued to Guide and Warn Israel through appointed Prophets.

In the last 400 years are so, before Christ's first advent, Israel was totally devoid of this Theocracy and had no Prophets. Because of this they had a non appointed King ruling over them, (Which is not to say that God gave up control), to punish them for their rejection of His government and to allow the Religionist to run wild with their heresies.

However, the Amillennial view takes verses like these and says that the Kingdom of God was now with man and is present on earth and in the church.

Mat_12:28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
Luke_10:9 and heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

While the local aspect of the Church is run on the basis of a Theocracy, the local aspect is not the Kingdom. Jesus said on many occasions, that the Kingdom had come near or was in their midst. How did He mean this? The miracles, of the above passages, are a sign of the Kingdom and the fact that the King was standing among them, meant the Kingdom was near, in the person of Jesus Christ. Where ever the King is, the Kingdom is with Him. For a Kingdom cannot exist without a sitting King and a King cannot be a King without a Kingdom. At present, the Kingdom is with the King in the Heavens. However, there will come a day when the King will return and bring the Kingdom with Him and sit upon an earthly Throne and establish a True Theocracy on the earth. It's center will be Jerusalem.

It is this Kingdom, that the disciples were asking about. If the Amillennial view was correct, then they would have known the Kingdom was now with them and it was a spiritual Kingdom, not a physical Kingdom. However, it is obvious from their question, before the Lord ascended, they knew of no such Kingdom. They knew of the King and His Salvation but of no establishment of a Kingdom. They looked forward to the physical restoration of the Kingdom. Why? Because they believed what God had said in the OT passages and knew that He would accomplish it.

The question was given to the King of Kings and He gave answer. An answer about the unknowable times of it's restoration. What is of the MOST INTEREST is: The King did not correct them about their desire for this restoration and surly, He would have, if they were wrong in their understanding of the Kingdom. After all, He was leaving them and they were responsible for the inerrant proclamation of the Gospel.