DOES GOD CHOOSE, OR DOES MAN CHOOSE?

[posthuman]

Where did I say anything about fear?

i guess i'm reading that into what you said here:

I don't see why you would want to reject His sweating blood
having directly to do with Him facing the torture of the cross.

what do people feel when they are anticipating facing torture?

Who was sweating blood in the garden at the thought of what He was facing? Clearly when Jesus was praying for God's will to be done and NOT His own, He was speaking from His humanity.

His will was that the cup should pass from Him, and the Father's will is that He should take it - that's clear. whether that will was purely human nature or not, i'm not clear about.

the prayer in Gethsemane is very interesting, and one interesting thing about it is that He went off by Himself to pray, a stone's throw, and those He brought with Him kept falling asleep. so you wonder how it is they knew what He was praying? did He mean for them to hear this - for it to be written for us to read it? i think, obviously, yes. so even if it is human will that wishes the cup to pass, it may be that this is a purposeful illustration to us. moreso than an example of Him wavering in devotion to the will of God, especially since there isn't quite evidence of Him seeking 'human will' in anything else He does -- which to me, makes this much more than praying against self-will. in fact, he is God enfleshed - He never needed to pray out loud ((is He praying to Himself?? ppl who deny His deity always ask)) - so isn't it always for our benefit, in a way as a demonstration to us of how Man should pray, when He does this?

hopefully i make some sense lol

---

---

by the way you're doing BDF wrong:

But I still love you

iirc you're supposed to accuse me of heresy, rejecting Christ, contradicting scripture, willful sin, preaching wickedness and generally being a demon disguised as a human whenever you disagree with and/or misunderstand/fail-to-understand me.

but i love you too

 

[posthuman]

But it seems you are missing a very important Biblical Fact about the Bible itself.

see this guy gets it.

even though i refer to Jonah as an example he accuses me of failing to understand that the scripture is given for our example, because i referred to scripture as our example.

 

[Nehemiah6]

it's as though the God-man dying on the cross is the inescapable conclusion of human free agency. the price of our "free will" is the existence of evil and the blood of the Messiah. . ?

One has to look beyond that to God's eternal purposes in bringing about the establishment of the Church through Christ. God will be eternally glorified in and through the Church and Christ will be glorified in His saints. That is the message in the first three chapters of Ephesians.

Human beings would have remained merely human without the finished work of Christ. But the children of God will be perfected, transformed and glorified at the Resurrection/Rapture to resemble Christ, and the Church will then become the Wife of the Lamb. The saints have already been declared as kings and priests eternally, so they will have rulership throughout the universe. We know very little about this, but the saints will judge the world and also judge angels.

 

[Studyman]

if He knows what it will take to make me freely choose Him and He freely chooses brings those circumstances about that will certainly cause me to do so -- who chose who?

& like you say, some will not choose Him, regardless of circumstance - if that were not so, then one could accuse Him of evil for not bringing about the circumstances that would necessarily constrain them to turn to Him and believe.

this goes back to the random food-preparation vs. following a recipe question i posed yesterday: He created both those who reject Him and those who embrace Him. did He not create our hearts and minds too? in John 8, he tells a group of pharisees that they cannot hear His words, and cannot believe because they do not belong to God. how did that come about if He is sovereign over all?


when you give someone keys to a car, you give them power to go "zero to dead in under ten seconds" ((as a friend likes to say)) - even faster in certain cars. we've all been given such keys -- and that does not and cannot make God evil. God is good, always good, perfectly good. so if He's not doing evil by giving us agency to destroy ourselves, even those who will certainly, willingly destroy themselves, in fact He's doing perfect good - what is He doing? is He proving something to us? and not only to us, but to the angels, who are watching us with great wonder? what is He proving?

And what did Jesus prove?

That even though the Mainstream Preachers of His time who had killed the Prophets and twisted and corrupted God's Word into "another gospel", killed Him, death couldn't hold Him because the wages of sin is death, and He never sinned.

He proved that God will raise anyone who lives to glorify God with honor and respect. And even though the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet had created their own instructions, their own Sabbaths, their own images of God, it meant nothing.

Jesus didn't follow their High Days and their Sabbaths or their Laws. "We have a law, and by OUR Law He should die" they said.

But He didn't die, did He. He "spoiled" the principalities and powers that had Him and His Prophets of Old murdered. He made a show of "THEM" openly. He triumphed over "THEM" in it (His Lifestyle) when God raised him from the dead.

Therefore those who are in Him, also refuse to follow man made doctrines and traditions of religious man. Those who are in Him honor Him with respect and obedience. They don't create images of God after the likeness of man. They don't create "Feasts unto the Lord" or create their Sabbaths as did the "principalities and powers" He made a show of openly.

Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

With man's traditions this is impossible, but with God's Word, Grace and Mercy, all is possible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no one can give themselves to God you said - so what exactly do we think we are 'choosing' to do?

at the big tent revivals what do they tell the crowd to come to the front and do?
"give your life to Jesus!" right? but who already owns us?

it's the same thing, 'He chose the ones who choose Him' vs. 'the ones He chose, choose Him'
chicken & egg, absolute human autonomy vs. absolute divine sovereignty. is there middle ground that preserves both? or does it have to be one of these poles?

I do not buy into the give yourself to Jesus stuff. That sounds like religion to me. I buy into seeing you are guilty. Seeing you are lost with no hope. And coming to the end of yourself in repentance in trusting God in the gospel and receiving it.

IOW, I buy into receiving Jesus.

 

[hardsell]

Jesus didn't follow their High Days and their Sabbaths or their Laws. "We have a law, and by OUR Law He should die" they said.

Gal 4:4-5

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

If Jesus did not obey every part of the Law they could have killed him for disobeying the law. He celebrated Passover, why are you saying he never followed the law?

 

[notuptome]

I do not buy into the give yourself to Jesus stuff. That sounds like religion to me. I buy into seeing you are guilty. Seeing you are lost with no hope. And coming to the end of yourself in repentance in trusting God in the gospel and receiving it.

IOW, I buy into receiving Jesus.

Now that works for me and gibes with the scriptures.

John 16:8-11

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

one can argue that in a sense Satan's lie is that we aren't truly free unless we reject our Creator - that our autonomy must be proven by sin, else it doesn't exist

That would be a weak argument to me, Adam was truly free. Freeer than any man who ever lived up to christ, and since, Because he was totally free unstained by sin. He was free to say yes to God and say no to god. After he sinned, He learned right from wrong, that is correct. But he was less free. His nature demanded he take care of self first. Because the line of blessings which God created you to recieve was severed. So now. Instead of being free to say yes or no. Your freedom would not come unless God could convince you of your utter sinfulness, and need of a savior ie, he had to break you down to total brokeness.

Many people come to this, and they react in different ways,

Some turn to sin, they get that momentary light of pleasure, and it takes reality away for a bit, but they have to keep on doing it, because that momentary pleasure4 ends up crashing, That is how addictions are formed

Some, after trying the worlds way, just give up and commit suicide

Some, are able to be led to christ, because in their brokenness God can speak to them, and share his goodness. But pride has to be broken.

Satans lie to me was God does not really love you, He wants you to do his will. Whatever he says goes. He has you tied to a leash, and if you go outside of that leash, the wrath of God will be brought forth and you will be severely punished, and beaten back into submission.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well, like you said here:



did God know that they would sin, when He put the man & the woman and the tree in the garden - and the Serpent?

Jonah - did He know Jonah would reject and flee from His will to the point of death? IMO Jonah is a much stronger case for 'irresistible election' than free will! the man didn't choose to obey until he was dead, in the belly of a fish!

Yes he did know. Thats why he made the plan of salvation BEFORE he created man. It was not a last minute decision, It did not happen that Adam sinned, GHod was surprised, and had to make a way to redeem mankind. He already had the plan brought up.

And again, Of course God knew he would flee. And knew he would have to bring Jonah to the point of death, and to me it is a much WEAKER case for irresistible election. That free will. Because of man did not have free will. God would have said do not eat, And they would NEVER have eaten. God would have told Jonah, Go to ninevah, and Jonah would have said yes lord. On my way.

The reason God had to go to extremes with Jonah is because he had free will. Jonah could have continued to resist, and died in the fish, and we would never have known. Or God would let us know. And then ask us a fact, Was it worthy dying to not bring the gospel to Ninevah?

Here is what we know. In spite of free will. God still got the job done. As he always does. Mans free will does not appose God. If anything it compliments God. Because it shows us how much God loves us, that he is still willing to use us even after we are hard headed and do not do his will.

 

[Studyman]

see this guy gets it.

even though i refer to Jonah as an example he accuses me of failing to understand that the scripture is given for our example, because i referred to scripture as our example.

The point is Jonah did what He did as an example for us so we could learn from it. You asked the question

"did He know Jonah would reject and flee from His will to the point of death?

Jesus created his circumstance and the outcome to teach us that even though we really, really believe something, we are still only men and are no match for the wisdom and foresight of God.

That through God's Mercy not only was Jonah preserved, but also those of Nineveh.

What evidence do you have from this example that Noah never obeyed God until God killed him?

 

[BillG]

I have no idea.

What worries me is that if we say yes God chooses then we could think "No point witnessing cause they ain't gonna listen"

Jesus came against the Pharisees and spoke to them.
Yet we know the story of Nicodemus and Paul.

 

[posthuman]

What evidence do you have from this example that Noah never obeyed God until God killed him?

i didn't say he never obeyed God - but he didn't exactly go straight to Ninevah, did he? Jonah 'chose' something different, but God didn't just sit and let Jonah's choice settle the matter.
the 'mainstream' position is of course that he was alive the whole time in the belly of the fish for 3 days - but you put Matthew 12:40 together with Jonah 2:2 and you get the view that Jonah died, and was resurrected.

 

[Studyman]

Gal 4:4-5

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, [SUP]5 [/SUP]so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

If Jesus did not obey every part of the Law they could have killed him for disobeying the law. He celebrated Passover, why are you saying he never followed the law?

The Pharisees had created their own Law. This is an important Biblical fact to understand. They claimed they followed the "Law of Moses" but Jesus said they did not. They were liars.

The teaching from todays mainstream preachers that the Pharisees were trying to obey God is a false teaching.

Jesus followed God's Laws, not the Mainstream religion that had been preached for centuries by those who killed the Prophets.

Stephen knew this truth.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

The mainstream preachers of His time, had created their own Sabbaths where it was a sin to help a brother in need, or a sin to walk and eat a blackberry on the Sabbath. You couldn't eat without washing your hands a certain way.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matt. 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


Jesus followed God's Commandments perfectly. He did not follow the Laws created by the Mainstream Church of His time, that Jesus rejected them for.

We are being taught by "MANY" who come in Christ's name, that the Pharisees were trying to get to heaven by follow God's Laws. This is a hideous lie that corrupts the true message of Christ. Jesus warned us of such preaching.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So to recap, the Bible says the Jews killed Jesus for not following their Law, not God's.

"We have a law, and by our law He must die".

What Law of God condemned Jesus? What Law of God said I can't help a Brother on His Sabbath? What Law of God condemned people in sin for not washing their hands before eating.

Paul said of the Jews:

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We need look no further than Jesus to find God's Righteousness. Did Jesus ever follow man made High Days? Did Jesus ever create images of God in the likeness of man?

Did Jesus ever "transgress the Commandments of God by observing man made traditions or doctrines.

No, He never did, and neither did any other righteous example of man in the bible.

But the Mainstream Preachers of His time did. And the Mainstream Preachers of our time do as well.

 

[Studyman]

i didn't say he never obeyed God - but he didn't exactly go straight to Ninevah, did he? Jonah 'chose' something different, but God didn't just sit and let Jonah's choice settle the matter.
the 'mainstream' position is of course that he was alive the whole time in the belly of the fish for 3 days - but you put Matthew 12:40 together with Jonah 2:2 and you get the view that Jonah died, and was resurrected.

I don't disagree at all, Jonah did as do we all when we blatantly reject God's Words.

Isn't this the same theme throughout the Bible?

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Was it not the Grace of God that raised Jonah, and Paul too? And did the Commandment change after Jonah was raised? Or did God give him the same commandment after "saving" him, as he rejected which caused his death in the first place?

Ex. 24:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Wasn't it God's longsuffering and patience that allowed Jonah the time to come around and repent.

Rom. 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Jon. 2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying,2 Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

What do you preach the significance is of God giving the same commandment after it was broken, as before it was broken? And how does this jive with todays preaching that God gave different commands in the new covenant, that we broke in the old?

 

[justpassinthrough]

Is biblical truth determined by how we feel about it?

Most here believe that those who are lost will suffer eternal torment, and that it involves burning forever.

Some of those who experience this fate are your mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, cousins, etcetera. Some of them took care of you as a child. They are your friends and your neighbors.

They were not axe murderers or Adolf Hitler. Yet, they failed to place their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

They will be thrown in the lake of fire, and will suffer everlasting torment, according to the doctrine the vast majority hold.

And, I don't have a problem with this doctrine. I find it credible, and it definitely has Scriptural support. Despite what annihilationists and universalists claim, their views are not irrefutable. There are clear Scriptures in Revelation that indicate eternal torment.

Have you watched the video of the Jordanian pilot dying? He flails in the flames a bit, then just kneels down as his face melts off. Dying by flames is not fun...and what does it mean for this to go on eternally? I don't know.

So, there are distasteful doctrines that the majority of us believe. Yet, somehow we don't don the robes of a judge and decide that God cannot be like that, and that the doctrine is false. Somehow, we know that wouldn't be a right approach concerning eternal punishment; God has a prerogative to do what he wants with the lost.

Yet, when it comes to election, we decide God CANNOT have the prerogative to choose. The Bible CANNOT mean that God chooses regarding salvation.

Somehow, we devise a way to twist the doctrine so that WE CHOOSE. Make no mistake about it. That is what those who reject particular redemption claim. They claim that one's salvation is a result of THEIR CHOICE, and not GOD'S CHOICE. FREE WILL is their idol, and he rules the day.

Be honest with yourself. The view of foreknowledge that Arminians have is simply an attempt to deny that God chooses, and that man chooses. In this view, the person is simply saying, I choose, yet I want to couch it with language that suggest God chooses.

So, are we basically trying to mold God into our own image, defining the parameters of his activity?

By the way, I see the same thing with regards to original sin. There are MANY who claim that original sin cannot be true, or they re-define it to narrow down the effects of Adam's sin. They will NOT accept that Adam's sin is imputed to mankind, even though Romans 5 is clear in mentioning BOTH death AND condemnation came through Adam, and mentions original sin in the SAME CONTEXT as Christ and his righteousness being imputed to the believer (see Romans 5:17-19).

No..it can't be true..because it doesn't align with my god-idol. He thinks just like me, and that is unfair according to my standards. This is the essence of the problem..making a god-idol in our own image. It isn't a lack of theological clarity; it's a matter of the affront that is presented to their god-idol.

Same with God punishing corporate entities for the sin of an individual..for example, when David numbered Israel, God killed 23,000..and was in the process of killing more, and David begs him to stop, because it was HIS sin that caused the death of these people...somehow those who worship the god-idol clasp their hands over their face and say, God cannot be like that...it doesn't align with my expectations of God and his fairness.

I can acknowledge that some things are distasteful and offensive to me as a human, while at the same time acknowledging that God's word is TRUE and that I am NOT God's judge, and I totally trust Him, regardless if his actions attack my human sensitivities. I am not an unfeeling man who doesn't care what happens to those who don't believe. All of God's judgments are righteous, whether I agree with them or not. He didn't ask my opinion on the issue, and he owns all things. He can do what he wants with his things.

What's my major point with this thread? I am not God and I don't judge God. Nor do I create a god-idol that has the same exact judgment that I have on things, so I can avoid him offending me. I think that's what many do..their god-idol determines what can be the meaning of the text, and they cannot read the text for what it says on those topics. They turn Ray Charles on those texts.

Here are those who will receive eternal life on that Day when He Judges each man according to his deeds.



[FONT=&quot]God [/FONT][FONT=&quot]who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]

and again


Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

• you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14



6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen[a] you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

We are all saved, born again, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.


Once we are born again, and transferred out of the domain of darkness, we are given dominion over sin that desires to bring us back into bondage, so that we become a slave again to sin.


The Spirit within us desires for us to live our life according to righteousness of His life within so that we practice righteousness.



There are two ways for the born again, Spirit empowered person to live out there life of earth.

1. According to the flesh
2. According to the Spirit with in us

If you have been born again and filled with God's Spirit, then you have the ability to reign and rule in dominion over the sin that dwells in your flesh, as well as the devil who seeks to entice you into destructive plan of sin and defeat.


Living life according to the Spirit, is the way of victory and blessing, and peace.


Living life according to the dictates of the flesh, seeking to gratify it's lustful desires of sin, whereby we become enslaved again to sin and the devil, once we have been set free, is the way of defeat, depression, and bondage, and leads to death; eternal death.




12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will
live.Romans 8:12-13




justpassinthrough


[/FONT]

 

[hardsell]

The Pharisees had created their own Law. This is an important Biblical fact to understand. They claimed they followed the "Law of Moses" but Jesus said they did not. They were liars.

The teaching from todays mainstream preachers that the Pharisees were trying to obey God is a false teaching.

Jesus followed God's Laws, not the Mainstream religion that had been preached for centuries by those who killed the Prophets.

Stephen knew this truth.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

The mainstream preachers of His time, had created their own Sabbaths where it was a sin to help a brother in need, or a sin to walk and eat a blackberry on the Sabbath. You couldn't eat without washing your hands a certain way.

Matt. 23:4 For they (Not God)bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Matt. 15:9
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


Jesus followed God's Commandments perfectly. He did not follow the Laws created by the Mainstream Church of His time, that Jesus rejected them for.

We are being taught by "MANY" who come in Christ's name, that the Pharisees were trying to get to heaven by follow God's Laws. This is a hideous lie that corrupts the true message of Christ. Jesus warned us of such preaching.

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

So to recap, the Bible says the Jews killed Jesus for not following their Law, not God's.

"We have a law, and by our law He must die".

What Law of God condemned Jesus? What Law of God said I can't help a Brother on His Sabbath? What Law of God condemned people in sin for not washing their hands before eating.

Paul said of the Jews:

Rom. 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

We need look no further than Jesus to find God's Righteousness. Did Jesus ever follow man made High Days? Did Jesus ever create images of God in the likeness of man?

Did Jesus ever "transgress the Commandments of God by observing man made traditions or doctrines.

No, He never did, and neither did any other righteous example of man in the bible.

But the Mainstream Preachers of His time did. And the Mainstream Preachers of our time do as well.

I see where you are going and do not totally disagree. Your road is rocky getting to the destination you are trying to teach others to reach. I would recommend making it clear that Jesus followed every aspect of God's Law, including keeping the feats. If you are pushing that Passover was a man made tradition and Jesus never followed it, then I cannot agree, since Passover was set up by God for them to remember their deliverance from Egypt.

 

[MarcR]

While I firmly believe that mankind does indeed have freewill there is NO WAY man's will can override God's will.

Jesus said: Jn 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
KJV

So we are clearly told that God chooses.

However that does NOT imply limited Atonement!

2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

is an equally true statement.

But we know that NOT ALL WILL BE SAVED.


This raises the question: What could possibly thwart God's will?

Certainly NOT man's will!

I believe that God created mankind because He wanted a creature who was able to receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it can not be programmed. The capacity to love implies the capacity to reject love.

God knew before He created Adam that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit.

God planned for Jesus to redeem humanity from the consequences of Adam's sin before Adam was created.

God indeed is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

However He desires more that man have the capacity to love.

God has made it possible for all to be redeemed; but only those who choose to receive and return God's love, by exercising the faith God has given them, can be redeemed.

God is certainly not obliged to choose His elect on the basis of their response to Jesus; but I believe that He chooses to do so.

 

[shrume]

While I firmly believe that mankind does indeed have freewill there is NO WAY man's will can override God's will.

Jesus said: Jn 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
KJV

So we are clearly told that God chooses.

We are clearly told that Jesus chose his 12 disciples.

However that does NOT imply limited Atonement!

2 Pe 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
KJV

is an equally true statement.

But we know that NOT ALL WILL BE SAVED.

This raises the question: What could possibly thwart God's will?

Certainly NOT man's will!

I believe that God created mankind because He wanted a creature who was able to receive and return His love.

The nature of love is such that it can not be programmed. The capacity to love implies the capacity to reject love.

God knew before He created Adam that Adam would eat the forbidden fruit.

God planned for Jesus to redeem humanity from the consequences of Adam's sin before Adam was created.

God indeed is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

However He desires more that man have the capacity to love.

God has made it possible for all to be redeemed; but only those who choose to receive and return God's love, by exercising the faith God has given them, can be redeemed.

God is certainly not obliged to choose His elect on the basis of their response to Jesus; but I believe that He chooses to do so.

It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself here. You state:

This raises the question: What could possibly thwart God's will?

Certainly NOT man's will!

But then you understand (rightfully, IMO) that God wants all men to be saved, and that He gave man free will, the ability to decide. It is by a man's will that he determines whether to believe or not.

So since God wants all men to be saved, and man can decide not to believe, then man certainly can thwart God's will (in the case of salvation).

 

[MarcR]

We are clearly told that Jesus chose his 12 disciples.


It seems to me that you're contradicting yourself here. You state:


But then you understand (rightfully, IMO) that God wants all men to be saved, and that He gave man free will, the ability to decide. It is by a man's will that he determines whether to believe or not.

So since God wants all men to be saved, and man can decide not to believe, then man certainly can thwart God's will (in the case of salvation).

You are correct of course---there is an inherent contradiction; but it is not mine.

God desires that mankind has the capacity to love; and therefore the capacity to sin.
God desires that none should perish

ONLY God's conflicting desires can thwart God's will. All else is within His control.

 

[shrume]

You are correct of course---there is an inherent contradiction; but it is not mine.

God desires that mankind has the capacity to love; and therefore the capacity to sin.
God desires that none should perish

ONLY God's conflicting desires can thwart God's will. All else is within His control.

I don't see how God's desires are conflicting.

To me, the simple, reasonable thing to conclude is that man can indeed thwart God's will (again, wrt salvation).

I don't see the need to suggest that God has conflicting desires. "A house divided against itself cannot stand", and "a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways".

Not meaning to single you out, but sometimes it seems people have to come up with creative ways ("God has conflicting desires") to maintain the view that "God is sovereign". There are obviously many areas that God is certainly sovereign. He is God, after all. He created everything, including His plan to provide a way of salvation through sending His Son, Jesus Christ. But He gave us free will. God wants all men to be saved. I believe that truly is His will. Because we have free will, we can thwart the will of God by not accepting the salvation offered by the work of Jesus Christ.