You know me well enough that strawman arguments don't fly. No one is blaming God either.
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E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
God could have made it so you did not hurt your knee, But he allowed things to happen.. Guess it was not his will to intervine in your situation (which means since it was not his will to intervine, he must have willed it)
don't look at it as a calvine issue, your being blinded by your hate of a certain doctrine, and not looking at it correctly.
Heb 12:5-11
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
KJV
Heb 13:3
3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
KJV
1 Pe 1:6-7
6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
ESV
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
KJV
Heb 13:3
3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
KJV
1 Pe 1:6-7
6 In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
ESV
U
Ugly
Guest
I have seen a lot of post lately that would suggest that some believe God wants believers to be poor and sick....Now I know some are trying to counter what they believe is false teaching, but you cant throw away the blessings and promises of God, just because you believe someone is misusing the truth.
"The blessing of the Lord maketh rich and adds no sorrow".... Its absolute biblical truth that can be defended point by point.
"by His stripes, we are healed" ..is absolute biblical truth that can be defended point by point.
Now if anyone wants to be sick and poor, I will pray for you
If anyone wants to discuss these issue in a godly and respectful way? I will be glad to have that discussion
(about to go to work) so it might be later
Reading these two scriptures in context..
The first, if you read the verses around it, are not speaking literally. "The lips of the righteous feed many" clearly does not mean physical food as is further explained with the rest of the verse "but fools die for want of wisdom".
Trying to use verse 22 as an isolated verse makes it easy to twist it into something that it is not meant to say. Really that entire chapter refers a lot to spiritual wisdom and righteous living. Are we to assume God suddenly threw in 'oh yeah, and i'll make you rich too'?
Isaiah suffers the same fate. Context changes the meaning. We start with 'our transgressions', then to 'our iniquities', these are not our physical issues, but our spiritual ones. Then we suddenly jump from how our spiritual shortcomings... our sins... have been the basis for his death, and the next thing he promises is physical healing? No. Context doesn't allow that jump.
Using these verses to support the idea we are promised financial and physical well being is to make up a promise that sounds good to our ears, but in reality is not supported by the whole of the writing.
P
psychomom
Guest
an interesting study is 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says'.
not for nothin', y'all, but the Most High seems to consider Himself Sovereign Ruler of everything.
not for nothin', y'all, but the Most High seems to consider Himself Sovereign Ruler of everything.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
to add. the verse he used "by his stripes we are healed" speak of our spiritual soul being healed and raised to life (salvation), it has nothing to do with physical or financial healing
A
atwhatcost
Guest
Oh ye of little faith. lol
Who do you think does most of the feeding of the poor? The poor! I learned a while ago to never ask the rich for help. If they do help, which is rare, they give pittance. There is a reason those charlatans beg for money to the poor. The poor know what it is to be in need, so give more than they can knowing God will provide.
If you don't believe me, sit outside the delivery docks of your local food banks and check out who is dropping stuff off. Once in a while you'll see a delivery van from a local grocery store. More often than not, you'll see old beat up cars, or an old person with a beat up shopping cart.
And if you show up at dinner time, the poor will give you a better meal.
Just to be clear, I am talking about Christians.
Let's go a bit further into Hebrews 13 there............
[h=1]Hebrews
13[/h]
1 .) Let brotherly love continue.
2 .) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
3 .) Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
4 .) Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
[h=1]Hebrews
13[/h]
1 .) Let brotherly love continue.
2 .) Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
3 .) Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
4 .) Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
5 .) Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
6 .) So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
STUFF HAPPENS in a fallen creation that is not God punishing us. You said stuff doesn't just happen. That is not a strawman argument............MY KNEE IS STILL STINGING.
Was it God who WILLED it upon me? Yes or no.
As for "no one" blaming God...........how else, exactly can one define those who say "IT'S GODS WILL"
Jas 2:1-6
2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
KJV
2 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
KJV
People need to understand the difference between "God willed it" and "God allowed it" would clear up much of the confusion in my opinion.
And for the narrow sighted who believe I am blaming the poor for being poor............well, yes and no. There are actually SOME people in this world who choose/chose to be poor. Mother Theresa come to mind first off. While others are victims of circumstances not of their own choosing. Yet others are poor because of bad choices made.
Many different things come into play in determining the state one lives here on earth. To simply say "God's will" is blaming God in my opinion.
Some will figure it out, others wont'...........but, hey, IT'S GODS WILL!
And for the narrow sighted who believe I am blaming the poor for being poor............well, yes and no. There are actually SOME people in this world who choose/chose to be poor. Mother Theresa come to mind first off. While others are victims of circumstances not of their own choosing. Yet others are poor because of bad choices made.
Many different things come into play in determining the state one lives here on earth. To simply say "God's will" is blaming God in my opinion.
Some will figure it out, others wont'...........but, hey, IT'S GODS WILL!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
No, People need to understand that if your a christian and sick, it is not always your fault. that God does not promise anyone health, nor does he promise anyone financial security. The only thing he promises, is that no matter what situation we are in (whether it be is the area of wealth or health) that is grace is sufficient, and he has given us rest.
P
psychomom
Guest
for me, it's not about blaming God.
it's about doing my best to follow Him, and accepting His will.
i do believe Him when He declares He is Sovereign.
Oh also, you have now a red herring. I placed the idea of things just happening as Deism not a strawman.
To say that everything that happens in this world, to man is God's will, is to deny man's free will. To do that is to buy into the Calvinist ideology. Which, in and of itself, absolves all men from any personal responsibility for their actions/choices.
I will not buy into that ideology.
This "victimization of man" by God's will thinking is something I will not buy into. And there is no other way to explain it than the "victimization of man" by God's will going by the comments I have read here.
Just earlier this morning, when I awoke, I got up from bed, and CHOSE not to put on my glasses, started out of my bedroom towards the kitchen for that first cup of coffee which I could smell the wonderful aroma of. The hall door was only PARTIALLY open, rather than push it all the way open, I just tried to slide through, banged my knee on the door jamb AND NOW I got a "boo-boo" on my knee that "ouches" me.Hey................GOD WILLED IT! IT'S ALL HIS FAULT........HE WANTED TO SEE ME HOPPING AROUND GASPING FROM THE PAIN AND now in no mood to enjoy that first cup of coffee. YUP! GOD DID IT! Not me, I'M JUST A VICTIM OF HIS WILL!
(all of this sounds somewhat like the Calvinist ideology of man being a "victim" of God)
Crossnote: You know me well enough that strawman arguments don't fly. No one is blaming God either.
Another strawman. Where in my quote did I say, "Everything that happens to man is God's will"?
I hope we can say everything that happens to man is allowed by God.
A
atwhatcost
Guest
(Real question, not cockiness. Just thought I learned something else, and I might have learned from a bad teacher... or worse yet. Imagined it. lol) I thought the early church was more like a kibbutz. All the Jews were shunned from their friends, family and community for the obvious reason ("you believe who is God?"), so they had to develop their own community. And in joining that community you sold whatever you used to have and give the profits to the new community, and then kept on working for the benefits of all, instead of personal profit. And that's why God killed that couple for not giving all their profit. (I can never remember their names, except I think the guy's name starts with a C and the wife's name starts with an A. Might be wrong even with that.)