DOES HUMAN NATURE VANISH AS SOON AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN?

[john832]

In CHRIST is no sin.

If we could be sinless, we would no longer need Gods grace love and forgiveness. We would no longer need God period!

So, do you sin?

 

[Michael50]

In CHRIST is no sin.

If we could be sinless, we would no longer need Gods grace love and forgiveness. We would no longer need God period!

A most foolish statement on your behalf. You take up the same arguments that satan used when convincing Angels to rebel with him.

Was Lucifer and every Angel that God had Created Sinless? They most certainly were!!!!

And here you sit and claim they had no need of God?

That is the same argument that satan presented before the sinless Angels that sided with him and were kicked out of Heaven:

What need have we of God? We are holy and able to set our own courses. God is only keeping us from reaching our full potential......That was one of Satan suggestions to the other angels.

Angels are immortal as long as they are obedient to God. As would have been Adam & Eve,, but,, they disobeyed. Sqandering the promise of God to live forever.

 

[Grandpa]

And then others believe that the Spirit comes to us through the Word. So we say that the Mosaic Law defines our human nature that is at odds with the Spirit of God. We see this tool as instruction to identify ourselves, and see we are not to react to what feels good or bad, but what is revealed to us in what we read, being understood via the Holy Spirit.
With human nature we always get the cart before the horse. Funny thing is, that when we deny parts of the Word of God, in what they were originally intended for, we think that this nature is God’s when it’s really our own. When we purposefully reject certain parts of the Old Testament, as a thing of the past, how can we say the Spirit leads us? There is a Law called the law of liberty. Is that law a different law that liberates human nature, giving us the comfort that we are saved without looking into it?

James 1:23-26 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

I don't think there is a formula given for how the Holy Spirit is given. Except having faith to come to Christ and know that He is and is a rewarder of those that come to Him.

For me, reading the bible was like learning God's language. Even though it was written in English I didn't understand a lot of it the first few times I read it.

And then I started praying. This unlocked everything, for me. I asked the Lord for so much. Much of which I didn't even understand what I was asking for or how anything worked. I didn't even really understand the answers I was receiving, I was so ignorant and without understanding. But He gives us exceedingly, abundantly more than we can ask or think.

When we purposefully reject certain parts of the Old Testament, as a thing of the past, how can we say the Spirit leads us?

That's kind of vague. Do you reject animal sacrifice? Do you build a tent and sit on your mercy seat? If you don't deny the physical aspects of the OT can you say the Spirit leads you?

Now if you mean that there is a spiritual aspect to the Old Testament that can only be seen by the Wisdom and Knowledge that the Lord Jesus gives us, I would agree with that.

There is a Law called the law of liberty. Is that law a different law that liberates human nature, giving us the comfort that we are saved without looking into it?

The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. The Law of Liberty.

Can we have comfort that we are saved without a complete knowledge of what this Law of Liberty is? Yes. We are saved and given comfort before we understand. The Holy Spirit is who teaches us and shows us what it all means and how to walk.

What are you saying that the Law of Liberty is? Maybe we are talking about two different things...

 

[just-me]

I suppose this will add a little gasoline to the fire, but human nature does vanish when we are born again. The situation is that we are not born again until the resurrection and we are changed from flesh to spirit...

Up until now I have agreed and basically defended the things that you have endorsed even on other threads. This comment of yours (unless I have misunderstood) makes me question how you think salvation really works. Being born again, to me, means being given a brand new life outside of the previous life of corruption. The following verse clearly indicates a present state, not a situation that will come in the future.

1 Peter 1:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I'm certainly not against searching the scriptures of the Mosaic law. I know that you observe the law with great sincerity. Maybe it is terminology, but one who is not born again doesn't have the indwelling Spirit. I think you do, so I would say being born again is a prerequisite to the receiving of the Holy Spirit. If you do not confess that you have the Holy Spirit, then I would say that you also cannot claim that the temple made by the hands of men has been changed to the temple that God has made from those who believe in Him by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Then one would also have to say that their human nature takes precedence over the will of our Father in heaven.

I do hope that you can see the logic that I endorse to all that read this.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I believe that being born again is the beginning of a brand new life called salvation through Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
[SUP]2 [/SUP](For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

 

[starfield]

I suppose this will add a little gasoline to the fire, but human nature does vanish when we are born again. The situation is that we are not born again until the resurrection and we are changed from flesh to spirit...

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus is describing somethin quite different than humna here. Paul did like wise...

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God, we must be changed.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul shows here that that total change occurs at the last trump, the return of Christ.

This is why John said this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now there is also another condition called being begotten...

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Peter assents to this condition...

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

We are botten to a lively hope but when does that occur? At the resurrection of the dead. When is that?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

When are teh dead made alive? At His coming.

So you’re saying regeneration does not occur until the resurrection? Wow. Never heard of that one before!

How do you reconcile that with these verses:
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life. "Hath" suggests presently having everlasting life rather than a future occurrence.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. "He saved us" suggests something that has already happened, not a future occurrence. So one is born again the moment they repent and believe the Lord Jesus.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, do you sin?

of course. Do you?

I would be fooling myself if I claimed I did not. and there would be no truth in me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A most foolish statement on your behalf. You take up the same arguments that satan used when convincing Angels to rebel with him.

Was Lucifer and every Angel that God had Created Sinless? They most certainly were!!!!

And here you sit and claim they had no need of God?

That is the same argument that satan presented before the sinless Angels that sided with him and were kicked out of Heaven:

What need have we of God? We are holy and able to set our own courses. God is only keeping us from reaching our full potential......That was one of Satan suggestions to the other angels.

Angels are immortal as long as they are obedient to God. As would have been Adam & Eve,, but,, they disobeyed. Sqandering the promise of God to live forever.

. Ad hominem, faulty argument which does not speak to the question being spoken of.

Did Angels who had not sin need a savior? No
Did they need grace? No
Did they need mercy? Mo
Did they need to grow in mercy and grace? No
Did they need to rely on a savior who would fulfill his promise to them? No

Try listening to what is being said before you make remarks which do not speak to the topic in question.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Up until now I have agreed and basically defended the things that you have endorsed even on other threads. This comment of yours (unless I have misunderstood) makes me question how you think salvation really works. Being born again, to me, means being given a brand new life outside of the previous life of corruption. The following verse clearly indicates a present state, not a situation that will come in the future.

1 Peter 1:22-23 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I'm certainly not against searching the scriptures of the Mosaic law. I know that you observe the law with great sincerity. Maybe it is terminology, but one who is not born again doesn't have the indwelling Spirit. I think you do, so I would say being born again is a prerequisite to the receiving of the Holy Spirit. If you do not confess that you have the Holy Spirit, then I would say that you also cannot claim that the temple made by the hands of men has been changed to the temple that God has made from those who believe in Him by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Then one would also have to say that their human nature takes precedence over the will of our Father in heaven.

I do hope that you can see the logic that I endorse to all that read this.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I believe that being born again is the beginning of a brand new life called salvation through Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
[SUP]2 [/SUP](For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

'

Now your starting to see what we have been saying.

 

[Beckon]

[h=2]

DOES HUMAN NATURE VANISH AS SOON AS WE ARE BORN AGAIN?[/h] (YOU WRITE)
Revelation 7:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Couldn’t get to sleep last night, so I went outside to pray. What was haunting me was that I felt deep inside that the love I had for our Savior was lacking. Knowing that I was confronted with something that I couldn’t accomplish by myself, and questioned God why, and then dropped it, because I already knew. I have prayed many times for help in certain areas of my life, knowing that what I was lacking could never be accomplished by anything that was of myself.

I woke up this morning, after praying, with this song on my mind. Over and over I was singing it to myself, and then I started to understand what God was saying to me.
Nothing But the Blood

(BECKON;s Response)
Is it not parable said; The life is in the blood? If so then the blood (nature & character) Jesus lived & taught is the only way home, there is but the one door/way home & that is in totally trust from Genesis 1:26 through 1:27 back to 1:26...

 

[john832]

of course. Do you?

I would be fooling myself if I claimed I did not. and there would be no truth in me.

But you do not go to the throne daily and seek forgiveness for them?

 

[just-me]

I don't think there is a formula given for how the Holy Spirit is given. Except having faith to come to Christ and know that He is and is a rewarder of those that come to Him.

I think there is. I use the formula God has given because I use the Mosaic Law do identify human nature so I can repent and die daily.

For me, reading the bible was like learning God's language. Even though it was written in English I didn't understand a lot of it the first few times I read it.

And then I started praying. This unlocked everything, for me. I asked the Lord for so much. Much of which I didn't even understand what I was asking for or how anything worked. I didn't even really understand the answers I was receiving, I was so ignorant and without understanding. But He gives us exceedingly, abundantly more than we can ask or think.

Same here. And the answer I got was to go BACK to the Mosaic Law that I used to be under, and find out the gravity of what salvation really meant. The Law showed me that all previous temple worship was finalized through our Lord Jesus Christ. The precedence has always been the same, but what is brand new is that Christ took three things from the past and carried them to the cross (brazen altar) and completed it all. One thing is that He is the High Priest that will never die. The second thing is that He was the final sacrifice because He lives, and third, we come to God through Christ Jesus the high Priest to offer ourselves as a living sacrifice, acceptable in the sight of God.

That's kind of vague. Do you reject animal sacrifice? Do you build a tent and sit on your mercy seat? If you don't deny the physical aspects of the OT can you say the Spirit leads you?

So now you see by my previous explanations that the questions you pose to me are vain. Even if I were a non-believing Jew, I still wouldn't sit on God's mercy seat. That's His chair and always has been. I say that with a smile.

Now if you mean that there is a spiritual aspect to the Old Testament that can only be seen by the Wisdom and Knowledge that the Lord Jesus gives us, I would agree with that.

You've got it!!! Ya! Praise God for that!

The Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. The Law of Liberty.

Can we have comfort that we are saved without a complete knowledge of what this Law of Liberty is? Yes. We are saved and given comfort before we understand. The Holy Spirit is who teaches us and shows us what it all means and how to walk.

What are you saying that the Law of Liberty is? Maybe we are talking about two different things...

Looking in the mirror of the schoolmaster and identifying yourself as God sees you is the beginning of the law of liberty. It's called the Old Testament combined with the New Testament showing a completion in Christ, and His work in us, past, present, and future. Keep in mind all that read this. James, and all the writers of the New Testament, as we call it, was inspired by God, and they had the Old Testament writings to present the New Testament as the completed works of God. If a person looks at the truth of the matter, the New Testament didn't take effect until Jesus died, so the teachings of Christ Jesus were still under the old covenant.

James 1:23-25 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

Hebrews 9:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But you do not go to the throne daily and seek forgiveness for them?

I go to God and thank him for his forgiveness. Then I ask him to help me be better prepaired next time so that I may have victory over the temptation. and learn from my mistake.

why should I ask for what I already have received? If I do this, I disagree with God and place myself under law, not under grace.

 

[just-me]

Is it not parable said; The life is in the blood? If so then the blood (nature & character) Jesus lived & taught is the only way home, there is but the one door/way home & that is in totally trust from Genesis 1:26 through 1:27 back to 1:26...

Yes, the blood is the life of the flesh and the shedding of it kills the flesh - the natural man. Not hard to understand.

 

[just-me]

To all here: I refuse to take sides with or against anyone!

2 Timothy 2:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

When there are disputes and arguments about what Almighty God has inspired, then were just dividing the Word of Truth instead of obeying these verses. If all we want to do is get our viewpoint across, then you are prohibiting yourself from being properly edified by the Spirit of God. Then it is obvious that the human nature prevails.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To all here: I refuse to take sides with or against anyone!

2 Timothy 2:15-16 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

When there are disputes and arguments about what Almighty God has inspired, then were just dividing the Word of Truth instead of obeying these verses. If all we want to do is get our viewpoint across, then you are prohibiting yourself from being properly edified by the Spirit of God. Then it is obvious that the human nature prevails.

when we are in disputes about things not related to eternal life, I agree 100 %

however, when we are in disputes about how someone is saved, then I must disagree. allowing someone to continue to believe in a gospel which will lead them, and those who follow them, to hell is not loving them, it is feeding into their soon to be seen doom if they do not repent.

 

[Shiloah]

If you are saying that human nature is actually a sin nature I would agree. I think the Bible calls that iniquity, being the natural state of the human race. Job describes that nature in these verses I think.


Job 15:12-16 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Why doth thine heart carry thee away? and what do thy eyes wink at,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]That thou turnest thy spirit against God, and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Well, I suppose so. lol. Or something even worse than our fallen human nature. As for human nature, surely there's our fallen human nature as well as the seed planted within us by Christ which we're to feed so it will grow and eventually choke out the fallen one?

I was told that in church when I was a child. I was told we have a fallen nature and a spiritual nature within us. We have to feed the spiritual with prayer and studying the scriptures so that it will grow. We obviously want to starve out that fallen nature within us, though that obviously isn't as easy as it sounds. That thing just doesn't wanna die. lol.

 

[Shiloah]

when we are in disputes about things not related to eternal life, I agree 100 %

however, when we are in disputes about how someone is saved, then I must disagree. allowing someone to continue to believe in a gospel which will lead them, and those who follow them, to hell is not loving them, it is feeding into their soon to be seen doom if they do not repent.

But I thought we were saved by grace alone.

 

[Michael50]

. Ad hominem, faulty argument which does not speak to the question being spoken of.

Did Angels who had not sin need a savior? No
Did they need grace? No
Did they need mercy? Mo
Did they need to grow in mercy and grace? No
Did they need to rely on a savior who would fulfill his promise to them? No

Try listening to what is being said before you make remarks which do not speak to the topic in question.

You said: "We would no longer need God period."

I realize it is hard for you to face your own error. You said it. You don't have to admit it,, but you said it. And you are as wrong as you can be.

Here is somthing, that I believe the Lord wants me to relate to you:

Many who teach that the law of God is not binding upon man urge that it is impossible for him to obey it's precepts. But, if this were true, why did Adam suffer the penalty of Transgression? The sin of our first parents brought guilt and sorrow upon the world, and had it not been for the goodness and mercy of God, would have plunged the race into hopeless despair. Let none decieve themselves. "The wages of sin is death." The law of God can no more be transgressed with impunity now than when sentence was pronounced upon the father of mankind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But I thought we were saved by grace alone.

we are. but some people in here claim to believe it, but do not teach it. they are headed in a wrong direction. Unless something is done, they will be those who stand before christ proclaiming all the works in his name, and he will say depart, for he never knew them.

non of us want anyone to go through this do we?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You said: "We would no longer need God period."

I realize it is hard for you to face your own error. You said it. You don't have to admit it,, but you said it. And you are as wrong as you can be.

Here is somthing, that I believe the Lord wants me to relate to you:

Many who teach that the law of God is not binding upon man urge that it is impossible for him to obey it's precepts. But, if this were true, why did Adam suffer the penalty of Transgression? The sin of our first parents brought guilt and sorrow upon the world, and had it not been for the goodness and mercy of God, would have plunged the race into hopeless despair. Let none decieve themselves. "The wages of sin is death." The law of God can no more be transgressed with impunity now than when sentence was pronounced upon the father of mankind.

well. That is not from God. it is from some other father which wants you to think this.

the law was given to prove we need God., because we can not fulfill its precepts. It continues to condemn us, unless we somehow think our sin is not worthy of condemnation, or we are sinless. in which case we are deceived ourselves.