Does man have a libertarian free will?
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I addressed John 3:16 already with you. There is nothing inconsistent with Reformed theology and John 3:16.
Perhaps you heard some reading of John 3:16 by some free-willer theologian who bellows out WHOSOEVER at a higher volume in order to make his free-willer claim.
Here's the verse:
John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV Strong's)
Of course I know that everyone who believes will have eternal life.
The real issue is, what causes belief?
The answer is: regeneration.
God causes the person to believe by giving them spiritual life through regeneration.
Additionally, have you ever read John 3:16 in context? It proves my point.
Note the preceding verses. Nicodemus comes to Christ and Christ tells him that he needs to be born again to see the kingdom of God. The man who is not born again cannot even see the kingdom of God.
It is obvious that Nicodemus wasn't born again. He could not even understand what Jesus was saying. He needed a heart of flesh to replace his heart of stone. Spiritual truth was not penetrating his thinking.
Sometimes I feel that way with you free-willers by the way. I suspect some of you are in the same position as Nicodemus. You claim I am confused, but in reality I think some of you may still be in spiritual blindness. Just because I don't accept your humanistic, philosophical positions like libertarian free will doesn't mean I am blind. I openly and knowingly reject them, because Scripture teaches that the natural man is enslaved to his fallen nature and Satan, and he needs to be freed. The Bible fundamentally denies libertarian free will, and any free-willer who believes libertarian free will is operating from humanistic, pagan presuppositions.
Anyways, John 3:16 is in light of this context.
By the way, I responded to you on this verse, so your claim that I did not is disingenuous. In fact, it is really a very easy verse to address.
And, the translation in English Bibles is influenced by free-willer presuppositions.
For instance, it could be rendered:
John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV Strong's)
The word for "whosoever" is actually more like "all" or "every". All believing ones will not perish, but what causes belief? Regeneration.
The person needs this heart of flesh to believe.
It is not insignificant that Jesus is alluding to the need to be born again in the context of John 3:16, which involves receiving this new heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. The man in Adam needs to have Christ as his federal head to experience new life (see Romans 5).
John 3:1-15 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
(ESV Strong's)
Notice that Nicodemus could not understand spiritual things. Why? He needed to be born again in order to understand these things.
Yet, the free-willer thinks that being born again results from understanding these things, and responding to them.
They have it all backwards, yet they claim they are the ones who have true spiritual insight.
By the way, what does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit?
This, too, is speaking about regeneration.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (ESV Strong's)
Yet, a lot of free-willers will claim this is talking about baptism or amniotic fluid or some other nonsense. Jesus was making clear allusion to regeneration, which is required both for salvation and understanding spiritual truths.
To get back to John 3:16, though, there is nothing inconsistent with Reformed theology and John 3:16, and it is typical free-willer rhetoric to claim this.
Everyone who believes will in fact receive eternal life. But, the issue is, what causes belief (faith) and repentance? It is God who causes it, through regeneration. It is a gift of God, and that is why boasting about one's salvation is silly.
As I have mentioned, free-willer Sunday School teachers are far more likely to praise little Johnny for being gracious enough to accept Jesus into his heart than to praise God for saving him. Or, they might even praise themselves for being the one who led him to salvation. But, I doubt very many of them would think to praise God for saving little Johnny.
There is a fundamental glory issue involved in this discussion. And, to be honest, free-willers are much more likely to be glory-hogs, robbing glory from God for his work of salvation.
And, it is brought out by Paul in Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV Strong's)
And..by the way..before you say this, it is the entire package of salvation, including grace and faith, that is the gift. It is not only the faith, but my point is that it is all from God and man can take no credit for it.
Perhaps you heard some reading of John 3:16 by some free-willer theologian who bellows out WHOSOEVER at a higher volume in order to make his free-willer claim.
Here's the verse:
John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV Strong's)
Of course I know that everyone who believes will have eternal life.
The real issue is, what causes belief?
The answer is: regeneration.
God causes the person to believe by giving them spiritual life through regeneration.
Additionally, have you ever read John 3:16 in context? It proves my point.
Note the preceding verses. Nicodemus comes to Christ and Christ tells him that he needs to be born again to see the kingdom of God. The man who is not born again cannot even see the kingdom of God.
It is obvious that Nicodemus wasn't born again. He could not even understand what Jesus was saying. He needed a heart of flesh to replace his heart of stone. Spiritual truth was not penetrating his thinking.
Sometimes I feel that way with you free-willers by the way. I suspect some of you are in the same position as Nicodemus. You claim I am confused, but in reality I think some of you may still be in spiritual blindness. Just because I don't accept your humanistic, philosophical positions like libertarian free will doesn't mean I am blind. I openly and knowingly reject them, because Scripture teaches that the natural man is enslaved to his fallen nature and Satan, and he needs to be freed. The Bible fundamentally denies libertarian free will, and any free-willer who believes libertarian free will is operating from humanistic, pagan presuppositions.
Anyways, John 3:16 is in light of this context.
By the way, I responded to you on this verse, so your claim that I did not is disingenuous. In fact, it is really a very easy verse to address.
And, the translation in English Bibles is influenced by free-willer presuppositions.
For instance, it could be rendered:
John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. (ESV Strong's)
The word for "whosoever" is actually more like "all" or "every". All believing ones will not perish, but what causes belief? Regeneration.
The person needs this heart of flesh to believe.
It is not insignificant that Jesus is alluding to the need to be born again in the context of John 3:16, which involves receiving this new heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. The man in Adam needs to have Christ as his federal head to experience new life (see Romans 5).
John 3:1-15 1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
(ESV Strong's)
Notice that Nicodemus could not understand spiritual things. Why? He needed to be born again in order to understand these things.
Yet, the free-willer thinks that being born again results from understanding these things, and responding to them.
They have it all backwards, yet they claim they are the ones who have true spiritual insight.
By the way, what does it mean to be born of water and the Spirit?
This, too, is speaking about regeneration.
Ezekiel 36:25-27 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. (ESV Strong's)
Yet, a lot of free-willers will claim this is talking about baptism or amniotic fluid or some other nonsense. Jesus was making clear allusion to regeneration, which is required both for salvation and understanding spiritual truths.
To get back to John 3:16, though, there is nothing inconsistent with Reformed theology and John 3:16, and it is typical free-willer rhetoric to claim this.
Everyone who believes will in fact receive eternal life. But, the issue is, what causes belief (faith) and repentance? It is God who causes it, through regeneration. It is a gift of God, and that is why boasting about one's salvation is silly.
As I have mentioned, free-willer Sunday School teachers are far more likely to praise little Johnny for being gracious enough to accept Jesus into his heart than to praise God for saving him. Or, they might even praise themselves for being the one who led him to salvation. But, I doubt very many of them would think to praise God for saving little Johnny.
There is a fundamental glory issue involved in this discussion. And, to be honest, free-willers are much more likely to be glory-hogs, robbing glory from God for his work of salvation.
And, it is brought out by Paul in Ephesians 2:
Ephesians 2:1-10 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(ESV Strong's)
And..by the way..before you say this, it is the entire package of salvation, including grace and faith, that is the gift. It is not only the faith, but my point is that it is all from God and man can take no credit for it.
LOL
Funny thing is I haven't even read anything more than quotes from Calvin, yet these guys think that "Calvinists" sit in a corner reading his books like they are the Bible.
This sort of thing is just typical ignorant free-willer propaganda.
The reality is that I noticed the biblical teachings regarding predestination and election and asked my free-willer pastor about them. He told me "that's Calvinism". At that point I hadn't even heard Calvin's name yet I believed the essential teaching simply from reading the Bible.
So, my advice would be, if you don't want to be a "Calvinist" then you'd better not read the Bible closely, because that is actually how I became "Calvinist".
Better go listen to your free-willer pastors and mark out the places in your Bible that discuss election and predestination, and the fallen state of man.
By the way, I hate the word "Calvinist" and only use the word "Reformed" in general. You can use this term if you want, but I think in most cases, it opens up the opportunity for them to claim that you are following a man rather than Scripture. Some of them have been indoctrinated by haters like Dave Hunt, and they are always looking to make that claim.
Funny thing is I haven't even read anything more than quotes from Calvin, yet these guys think that "Calvinists" sit in a corner reading his books like they are the Bible.
This sort of thing is just typical ignorant free-willer propaganda.
The reality is that I noticed the biblical teachings regarding predestination and election and asked my free-willer pastor about them. He told me "that's Calvinism". At that point I hadn't even heard Calvin's name yet I believed the essential teaching simply from reading the Bible.
So, my advice would be, if you don't want to be a "Calvinist" then you'd better not read the Bible closely, because that is actually how I became "Calvinist".
Better go listen to your free-willer pastors and mark out the places in your Bible that discuss election and predestination, and the fallen state of man.
By the way, I hate the word "Calvinist" and only use the word "Reformed" in general. You can use this term if you want, but I think in most cases, it opens up the opportunity for them to claim that you are following a man rather than Scripture. Some of them have been indoctrinated by haters like Dave Hunt, and they are always looking to make that claim.
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Oh I see it's okay for you to go about and belittle folks as "free-willers" but when they identify you as a Calvinist you are distressed. Reformed or Calvinist are the same but does not stroke your ego.
The TULIP is scriptural just not the way that the Calvinist Reformed adherents teach them.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The TULIP is scriptural just not the way that the Calvinist Reformed adherents teach them.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
By the way, pisteuo doesn't mean "spiritual persuasion".
Pisteuo means faith.
Additionally, God doesn't need to sit around waiting for some virtuous person to come along. He regenerates the elect and uses them. They have NO virtue of their own.
Your assertion is like Leignton Flowers claiming that the elect are "choice meats" worthy of being chosen and that is full-on denial of how God works and diminshes the greatness of his salvation.
Here's the state of ALL MEN:
Romans 3:9-18 9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(ESV)
This use of men by God is not "robotic" like you claim we believe. This is a typical free-willer strawman. God changes the nature of the person and decisions flow from nature. Christ used the analogy of healthy and diseased trees in this regard. The fallen man is a diseased tree.
Matthew 12:33-37 33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
(ESV)
God accomplishes his decrees without doing violence to the man's creaturely free will, and this involves regeneration which is a change of nature. The man with a stony heart is given a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:25-28 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your Go
(ESV)
The reality is that the fallen man has no facility for responding positively to God, as much as libertarian free willers claim otherwise.
By the way, I really shouldn't have to quote these Scriptures, but simply allude to them, if someone is biblically literate. But I am going to have to start providing them apparently. It's not the most efficient way to communicate.
Pisteuo means faith.
Additionally, God doesn't need to sit around waiting for some virtuous person to come along. He regenerates the elect and uses them. They have NO virtue of their own.
Your assertion is like Leignton Flowers claiming that the elect are "choice meats" worthy of being chosen and that is full-on denial of how God works and diminshes the greatness of his salvation.
Here's the state of ALL MEN:
Romans 3:9-18 9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
(ESV)
This use of men by God is not "robotic" like you claim we believe. This is a typical free-willer strawman. God changes the nature of the person and decisions flow from nature. Christ used the analogy of healthy and diseased trees in this regard. The fallen man is a diseased tree.
Matthew 12:33-37 33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good person out of his good treasure brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure brings forth evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, 37 for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
(ESV)
God accomplishes his decrees without doing violence to the man's creaturely free will, and this involves regeneration which is a change of nature. The man with a stony heart is given a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36:25-28 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your Go
(ESV)
The reality is that the fallen man has no facility for responding positively to God, as much as libertarian free willers claim otherwise.
By the way, I really shouldn't have to quote these Scriptures, but simply allude to them, if someone is biblically literate. But I am going to have to start providing them apparently. It's not the most efficient way to communicate.
I'm fully convinced that man doesn't have a free will, when it comes to choosing to believe the Gospel or reject it.
Some of my highly educated and religious friends, reject the gospel. They're 'nominal Christians' who attend Church on special occasions, live clean and respectable lives but they're marching straight to hell.
I know that I had nothing to do with my salvation, God did it all. I was a God hating wicked sinner, who committed many heinous unspeakable sins and crimes. I went back into the world many times after I was saved, to get another fill of sin and stayed there for different periods of time ranging from months to several years.
It amazing how gracious God is, to keep on forgiving us and receiving us back into His Church. I gave up hope many time, but God always drew me back to himself so I have to conclude that salvation is the work of the Lord, just as He said it was. I know this Biblical doctrine is not very well received by the majority of Christians, as it robs them of their pride and glory and gives it to God.
Some of my highly educated and religious friends, reject the gospel. They're 'nominal Christians' who attend Church on special occasions, live clean and respectable lives but they're marching straight to hell.
I know that I had nothing to do with my salvation, God did it all. I was a God hating wicked sinner, who committed many heinous unspeakable sins and crimes. I went back into the world many times after I was saved, to get another fill of sin and stayed there for different periods of time ranging from months to several years.
It amazing how gracious God is, to keep on forgiving us and receiving us back into His Church. I gave up hope many time, but God always drew me back to himself so I have to conclude that salvation is the work of the Lord, just as He said it was. I know this Biblical doctrine is not very well received by the majority of Christians, as it robs them of their pride and glory and gives it to God.
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Exactly but what makes pisteuo differ from pistis?
Then what in the world are we talking for? I agree. God changes people by spiritual persuasion. As for decisions flowing from nature that just sounds like your attempt to admit free will.
Please explain John 3:16.
Who said? God isnt powerful enough to work in free will? Just because you cannot understand it doesn't limit God. Here this verse explains it.
Romans 8:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
I'm just simply pointing out the conclusive thoughts when you follow your theology. But this more we speak, your more free will thinking than most who speak against it. Probably again why this feels useless.
As for Romans 3 yep very true as to why God in some form or fashion makes where all are without excuse. He draws all mankind
John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Then ultimately if this was the only verse we read, we would assume all are saved but we know scripture calls for belief also.
Total depravity is just more Calvinist propaganda.
Try posting the scriptures opposite of your theology also.
Then what in the world are we talking for? I agree. God changes people by spiritual persuasion. As for decisions flowing from nature that just sounds like your attempt to admit free will.
Please explain John 3:16.
Who said? God isnt powerful enough to work in free will? Just because you cannot understand it doesn't limit God. Here this verse explains it.
Romans 8:29 New International Version (NIV)
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
I'm just simply pointing out the conclusive thoughts when you follow your theology. But this more we speak, your more free will thinking than most who speak against it. Probably again why this feels useless.
As for Romans 3 yep very true as to why God in some form or fashion makes where all are without excuse. He draws all mankind
John 12:32 New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
Then ultimately if this was the only verse we read, we would assume all are saved but we know scripture calls for belief also.
Total depravity is just more Calvinist propaganda.
Try posting the scriptures opposite of your theology also.
You can't deny Scripture.
Or I guess you can..
Because that is what you are doing.
Election is CLEARLY BIBLICAL and re-defining terms does not help your case. For instance, claiming that only a class was elected, and by being added to this class, you are elect.
If you are looking for Scriptures, I provided them at the beginning of this thread:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/
Or I guess you can..
Because that is what you are doing.
Election is CLEARLY BIBLICAL and re-defining terms does not help your case. For instance, claiming that only a class was elected, and by being added to this class, you are elect.
If you are looking for Scriptures, I provided them at the beginning of this thread:
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/is-unconditional-election-biblical.187730/
What does Romans 9-11 teach?
All of your guy's claims are addressed in Romans 9.
And the objections to them.
It's really God that you have the issue with. I simply fully acknowledge Scripture.
And, yes, I have been elected. God has regenerated me, giving me spiritual life and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This caused my faith and repentance response.
As much as it irks you, that is exactly what happens in salvation. A heart of stone does not choose God. God provides the means to respond to him. This is what grace is.
By the way, perhaps you have a defective understanding of grace. Grace is not only unmerited favor. It is also empowerment to fulfill God's commands. These commands include the command to repent and to place ones' faith in Christ.
God does indeed command what the person cannot perform. He provides both the command and the means to obey it.
And, those who are appointed to salvation will obey.
Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)
All of your guy's claims are addressed in Romans 9.
And the objections to them.
It's really God that you have the issue with. I simply fully acknowledge Scripture.
And, yes, I have been elected. God has regenerated me, giving me spiritual life and a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone. This caused my faith and repentance response.
As much as it irks you, that is exactly what happens in salvation. A heart of stone does not choose God. God provides the means to respond to him. This is what grace is.
By the way, perhaps you have a defective understanding of grace. Grace is not only unmerited favor. It is also empowerment to fulfill God's commands. These commands include the command to repent and to place ones' faith in Christ.
God does indeed command what the person cannot perform. He provides both the command and the means to obey it.
And, those who are appointed to salvation will obey.
Acts 13:48 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)
I don't believe in equal ultimacy, if that is what you are expressing.
If you mean that God saves the elect while allowing the rest to pursue eternal destruction, that's exactly what I believe.
Again, read Romans 9-11.
It's no different than saving eight people from destruction in the flood. Eight is exactly the number that God intended to save. It is the number of new beginnings, and that is what he determined to save from the pre-flood world.
By the way, in your free-willer view, you CANNOT explain the tons of shadows and types of the Old Testament that point toward Christ. I am wondering if you are some kind of dispensationalist who denies these shadows and types. Anyone who understands them should be able to see that autonomous (libertarian) free will is nonsense. God was actively orchestrating events to point toward Jesus as the fulfillment of these shadows and types, whether the participants knew that they were being used in this manner.
Additionally, those believing in libertarian free will have no justification for believe Scripture, period. The problem is that if God does not control his instruments in authoring Scripture in a complementarian manner, you have absolutely no basis for believing in the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture.
Libertarian free will is simply a defective theology. It is laughable in fact for a conservative Christian to hold this position. I can see some liberal Christian holding that view, but no conservative evangelical.
Anyways, I don't have any real problem with God deciding who he is going to save. Some have issues with that and deny it. Some have issues with eternal punishment and deny it too. I don't have issues with it. God is Creator and he can do what he wants with anyone. He is sovereign and NO MAN can argue with him on this. That is exactly the answer of the apostle Paul in Romans 9...WHO ARE YOU OH MAN?
Romans 9:10-25 ” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Good luck with trying to reason your way out of that. Scripture is clear in this regard. And, while it is using national heads as examples, it is clear that it is also talking about all mankind.
And, before you criticize my ability to reason, I will remind you that I don't care about your opinion of me and my ability to reason. My position concerning you is that you simply don't take Scripture seriously. I don't see how you can take Scripture seriously and hold onto libertarian free will. Well, it is possible that you can't reason typologically and that's why you think that LFW is credible...that's possible.
If you mean that God saves the elect while allowing the rest to pursue eternal destruction, that's exactly what I believe.
Again, read Romans 9-11.
It's no different than saving eight people from destruction in the flood. Eight is exactly the number that God intended to save. It is the number of new beginnings, and that is what he determined to save from the pre-flood world.
By the way, in your free-willer view, you CANNOT explain the tons of shadows and types of the Old Testament that point toward Christ. I am wondering if you are some kind of dispensationalist who denies these shadows and types. Anyone who understands them should be able to see that autonomous (libertarian) free will is nonsense. God was actively orchestrating events to point toward Jesus as the fulfillment of these shadows and types, whether the participants knew that they were being used in this manner.
Additionally, those believing in libertarian free will have no justification for believe Scripture, period. The problem is that if God does not control his instruments in authoring Scripture in a complementarian manner, you have absolutely no basis for believing in the inerrancy and inspiration of Scripture.
Libertarian free will is simply a defective theology. It is laughable in fact for a conservative Christian to hold this position. I can see some liberal Christian holding that view, but no conservative evangelical.
Anyways, I don't have any real problem with God deciding who he is going to save. Some have issues with that and deny it. Some have issues with eternal punishment and deny it too. I don't have issues with it. God is Creator and he can do what he wants with anyone. He is sovereign and NO MAN can argue with him on this. That is exactly the answer of the apostle Paul in Romans 9...WHO ARE YOU OH MAN?
Romans 9:10-25 ” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Good luck with trying to reason your way out of that. Scripture is clear in this regard. And, while it is using national heads as examples, it is clear that it is also talking about all mankind.
And, before you criticize my ability to reason, I will remind you that I don't care about your opinion of me and my ability to reason. My position concerning you is that you simply don't take Scripture seriously. I don't see how you can take Scripture seriously and hold onto libertarian free will. Well, it is possible that you can't reason typologically and that's why you think that LFW is credible...that's possible.
The question you should ask yourself is whether God is obligated to save ANYONE.
It seems to me as if the built-in assumption of free-willers is that God is obligated to save everyone.
I don't hold that assumption.
I don't think that God tried to save every man since the beginning of creation. In fact, I don't think he tried to save anyone that he didn't save. I don't see a God with exhaustive foreknowledge engaging in meaningless behavior.
Additionally, it appears to me like you guys don't take Adam's sin seriously. All mankind is held guilty of Adam's sin and is condemned because of it. This condemnation is not mere physical death alone; it is spiritual death.
Rather than blaming God for creating men who will be lost, perhaps you should put the guilt where it belongs: Adam. That is exactly what Paul does in Romans 5. This section clearly teaches that Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all men. There was no personal libertarian free will decision required to cause this condemnation. It is true that all men have ratified Adam's decision, but the condemnation occurred through his one sin.
Adam acted as a corporate head for all mankind. He rebelled against God. God can rightly condemn all his descendants to eternal punishment due to this sin.
Adam could have obeyed God but he did not. So, you can blame Adam for condemning all mankind. That's what Scripture does.
And, the fact that God saves any is an act of mercy.
As I have said before, though, folks really just don't believe the doctrine of original sin and what it teaches. Their logic is this: if original sin is true, God isn't fair. I'm only responsible for my own sin. I cannot be held accountable for anything outside of my control. Therefore, the doctrine of original sin isn't correct.
However, the problem is that God doesn't reason like fallen men. In fact, you will find numerous cases in the OT where God condemns whole groups of people for the sin of one man. For instance, the entire families of Korah, Dathan and Abiram were destroyed for the sins of the head of the household. Same thing with Achan. David's sin of numbering Israel was punished by killing a bunch of Israelites. God does in fact hold entire groups of people guilty for the sin of an individual. And, he holds the descendants of Adam guilty for Adam's sin.
I don't think many humanistic thinkers will accept this, though, because it's against their "philosophy". Their standard is their "philosophy" and not Scripture.
It seems to me as if the built-in assumption of free-willers is that God is obligated to save everyone.
I don't hold that assumption.
I don't think that God tried to save every man since the beginning of creation. In fact, I don't think he tried to save anyone that he didn't save. I don't see a God with exhaustive foreknowledge engaging in meaningless behavior.
Additionally, it appears to me like you guys don't take Adam's sin seriously. All mankind is held guilty of Adam's sin and is condemned because of it. This condemnation is not mere physical death alone; it is spiritual death.
Rather than blaming God for creating men who will be lost, perhaps you should put the guilt where it belongs: Adam. That is exactly what Paul does in Romans 5. This section clearly teaches that Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all men. There was no personal libertarian free will decision required to cause this condemnation. It is true that all men have ratified Adam's decision, but the condemnation occurred through his one sin.
Adam acted as a corporate head for all mankind. He rebelled against God. God can rightly condemn all his descendants to eternal punishment due to this sin.
Adam could have obeyed God but he did not. So, you can blame Adam for condemning all mankind. That's what Scripture does.
And, the fact that God saves any is an act of mercy.
As I have said before, though, folks really just don't believe the doctrine of original sin and what it teaches. Their logic is this: if original sin is true, God isn't fair. I'm only responsible for my own sin. I cannot be held accountable for anything outside of my control. Therefore, the doctrine of original sin isn't correct.
However, the problem is that God doesn't reason like fallen men. In fact, you will find numerous cases in the OT where God condemns whole groups of people for the sin of one man. For instance, the entire families of Korah, Dathan and Abiram were destroyed for the sins of the head of the household. Same thing with Achan. David's sin of numbering Israel was punished by killing a bunch of Israelites. God does in fact hold entire groups of people guilty for the sin of an individual. And, he holds the descendants of Adam guilty for Adam's sin.
I don't think many humanistic thinkers will accept this, though, because it's against their "philosophy". Their standard is their "philosophy" and not Scripture.
I dont need more of scriptures I have read and studied the book. Your only posting the same scriptures but your interpretation. Before even moving forward please address my post in 690. Dont ignore or deflect with more walls of words in order to try and not address the info in the post.
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