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jaybird88
Guest
does anyone think Jesus may have done away with the oral law? how many times do we see Him fighting with the pharisees over their traditions which were based on oral law. just a thought.
Done Away?
- Thread starter Hizikyah
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you should know the word of GOD
it shoukd have moved inwardly where it belonged from the beginning (Jeremiah 31)
Anyone here wishing to discuss the Bible should know the Word of HPD
if they don't they shouldn't be offering "vague ideas". They simply should not speak at all.
these "vague ideas" which you have accused me of are not vague ideas
is Matthew 22 a vague idea?
was the white robes mentioned in Revelation just a "vague idea"?
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Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"
Mark 7:5-9, "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of YHWH, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of YHWH, so that you may keep your own tradition!"
Mark 7:13, "Making the Laws of YHWH of no effect through your tradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do."
Most will never know, but rather apply all the pitfalls of man made oral law to the perfect Law of the Creator of everything that is... sad.
Isayah 53, "Who has believed our report? To whom is the arm of Yahweh revealed? For He will grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground. He has no form nor comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. He is despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by Yahweh, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on Him the iniquity o us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth. He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut of from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; but He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet His bruises; willful sacrifice, pleased Yahweh; for He was put to much grief. Now He has brought the offering for sin. He will see His seed, He will prolong days, and the pleasure of Yahweh will succeed in His hands. He will see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied; by His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, for He will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the plunder with the strong; because He poured out His soul to death, and He was numbered with the transgressors; and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
New International Version
Mt 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."
King James Bible
Mt 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."
Takanot: reforms or enactments that (falsely) "change or add" to YHWH's Law.
Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.
Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud.
Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"
Mat 15:1 Then there came to יהושע scribes and Pharisees from Yerushalayim, saying,
Mat 15:2 “Why do Your taught ones transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
Mat 15:3 But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of Ylohim because of your tradition?
Matthew 15 English Standard Version
7You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
8“‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
9in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
Isaiah 29 English Standard Version
12And when they give the book to one who cannot read, saying, “Read this,” he says, “I cannot read.”
13And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
14therefore, behold, I will again do wonderful things with this people, with wonder upon wonder; and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.”
15Ah, you who hide deep from the Lord your counsel, whose deeds are in the dark, and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”
Mat 15:7 “Hypocrites! Yeshayahu rightly prophesied about you, saying,
Mat 15:8 ‘This people draw near to Me with their mouth, and respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
Mat 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’ ”
Isaiah 29:12 And the book is given to one who does not know books, saying, “Read this, please.” And he said, “I have not known books.”
Isaiah 29:13 And יהוה says, “Because this people has drawn near with its mouth, and with its lips they have esteemed Me, and it has kept its heart far from Me, and their fear of Me has become a command of men that is taught!
Isaiah 29:14 “Therefore, see, I am again doing a marvellous work among this people, a marvellous work and a wonder. And the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their clever men shall be hidden.”
Isaiah 29:15 Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from יהוה, and their works are in the dark; they say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?”
Isaiah 29:16 How perverse of you! Should the potter be reckoned as the clay? Should what is made say of its Maker, “He did not make me”? And what is formed say of Him who formed it, “He did not understand”?
So all prostitutes go to heaven...
Stop acting like obedience is evil.
We have been given mercy, now its time to be obedient.
Acts 26:20 English Standard Version
"but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God (YHWH), performing deeds in keeping with their repentance."
Acts 26:20 King James Bible
"But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God (YHWH), and do works meet for repentance."
Acts 3:19 Parallel Verses
"Repent therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out; that times of refreshing may come from the presence of YHWH."
New International Version
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
New Living Translation
Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away.
English Standard Version
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,
New American Standard Bible
"Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
(John) 5:14, Afterward, Yahshua found him in the sacred precincts and said to him: Behold, you are healed. Sin no more, or a worse thing will come upon you.
I believe what the Messiah says.
Rev 22:12 “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.
Rev 22:13 “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.
Rev 22:14 “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 “But outside are the dogs and those who enchant with drugs, and those who whore, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and all who love and do falsehood.
That's a good thought.
Except that you don't really know what obedience is. You just think you do. Just like the Pharisees before you.
Isaiah 55:6-9
[FONT="]6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
That includes the way of righteousness. Which is by faith, by the way.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Is that what you are trying to be obedient to? Is the law? There is a reason why trying to obey it can't give life.
Galatians 5:4-5
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[FONT="]4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
Except that you don't really know what obedience is. You just think you do. Just like the Pharisees before you.
Isaiah 55:6-9
[FONT="]6 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
That includes the way of righteousness. Which is by faith, by the way.
Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Is that what you are trying to be obedient to? Is the law? There is a reason why trying to obey it can't give life.
Galatians 5:4-5
[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
Grandpa... what did the Pharisees obey? lets see what our Savior says ok:Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
question: do you think the doctrines of men in this text are in the bible?
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
are these traditions of man in the bible? you see the obedience of the Pharisees was to their own tradition , it was not written in the biblical text, this is a common mistake, to count all these false commands as the ones contained in the law of Moses, which by the way NONE are.
and as a result you call one who is obedient as one who doesn't know what it is...
Allow me to ask you this: when was 1 john written? After our Savior returned to his father right? so please explain why John would define sin in these terms if all the law was done away... 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
seems rather strange doesn't it? just because you do not agree with another's beliefs and how they walk with our Savior, doesn't give you the right to judge them as unrighteous or wicked....
hers another text you might want to consider: Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
question: do you think the doctrines of men in this text are in the bible?
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
are these traditions of man in the bible? you see the obedience of the Pharisees was to their own tradition , it was not written in the biblical text, this is a common mistake, to count all these false commands as the ones contained in the law of Moses, which by the way NONE are.
and as a result you call one who is obedient as one who doesn't know what it is...
Allow me to ask you this: when was 1 john written? After our Savior returned to his father right? so please explain why John would define sin in these terms if all the law was done away... 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
seems rather strange doesn't it? just because you do not agree with another's beliefs and how they walk with our Savior, doesn't give you the right to judge them as unrighteous or wicked....
hers another text you might want to consider: Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Its pretty easy to spot your error.
You are looking to the law. You pridefully think you understand it and can obey it.
Just like all the pharisees before you. But the Law is Spiritual. It is not obeyed by carnal men.
The Lord shows you in Matthew 5 that you can't follow the law. You don't have the ability. You need the Lord to even understand that you can't obey the law. Then you need the Lord to be made righteous. Because you sure aren't righteous by your works or your own understanding.
So you can call the people who think they obey the law righteous and obedient but I sure know the silliness of that statement.
There really is no difference, at all, between the Pharisees in the bible, and people who think they are obedient to the Law. They are both deluded in thinking they are following the true way of righteousness.
So is it mean to tell the blind that they are blind? I don't think so. What's funny is the arguing. Its like Monty Python and the black knight.
The bible tells you over and over the error of Israel.
Romans 9:31-32
[FONT="]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT="]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Oh really? How ironic that we have this same conversation 2000 yrs later. And the ones that follow the error of Israel still don't get it.
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jaybird88
Guest
Matthew 5:19 (KJV)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great
yes most people will post verse 17 and 18 and say it is finished at the cross.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass,
one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
but verse 19 should leave no question that the commandents still stand.
curious have you ever heard anyone even try and explain verse 19?
anyone out there care to comment and to explain Matthew 5:19 for us ?
yes and the bible says it was Sabbath
God pleaded with them over and over to not follow there fathers traditions,
this is why He deforced them , both houses went into capitive for Sabbaths breaking.
Gods statues judgements and laws vs. there for fathers traditions and practises.
But nothing has changed even to this day, world follows mans not Gods ways.
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jaybird88
Guest
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jaybird88
Guest
another thing few consider. if the law was done away because Jesus fulfilled, it makes little sense when inserting "done away" into the Mathew passage.
I did not come to do away but to do away.
does that make any sense to anyone?
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FreeNChrist
Guest
You're going to love this. Those who will be called least in the kingdom of heaven are those who have discounted, devalued, and denigrated the law by reducing its demands for perfection, slicing and dicing it, retaining only what they feel is manageable and discarding the rest…..and who have taught others to do the same. These same folks also have disconnected the law from the perfect activity of God, which annuls the law by setting it loose from its moorings in God.
The only ones who keep the law, the only ones who can keep the law, are those in whom Jesus Christ lives to manifest the character of God in and through.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
of course it is not done away.
As long as there are unsaved people on earth, the law has a purpose. To lead people to Christ, To shut peoples mouths (no excuse for all have sinned)
Christ took th epenalty of the law away, thats why after one is saved, there is no longer a need for a tutor.
Isaiah 2:3
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem
Micah 4:2
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and
to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord fromJerusalem.
And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem
Micah 4:2
And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and
to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the Lord fromJerusalem.