Eastern Orthodoxy is not Talmud Pharisaism (Mishnaism).

[Strangelove]

Strangelove, I do not worship icons.

your liturgy says ya do!

 

[Strangelove]

I said:

This is a bald faced LIE. You ask BASIL for his prayers!

Then you say:

Dear strangelove.
You are falsely accusing me of lying. It is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor. I ask the saints to pray for me.

What is the false witness?

You have made a very serious accusation on this point and we need you to clarify otherwise YOU are bearing false witness.

I said you ask basil for his prayers AND YOU ADMIT YOU DO!

So what gives Scotty?

 

[Scotth1960]

your liturgy says ya do!

Your photo says you pretend to be Peter Sellers.

 

[Scotth1960]

What does his choice of user name have to do with anything?
Why do you keep bringing that up?
Why can't you defend your faith without resorting to childish tactics like criticizing his choice of username?
When you give away information like you have it makes it very easy for people to find out a lot more, and that is not a good idea.

Friend, I just note your argument is ad hominem and therefore invalid. You say I "resort to childish tactics", and make this about what I'm doing, and not what Strangelove did by choosing his arbitrary username with no valid logic behind it. Using one's own real name or a synonym for it is not arbitrary.
Using some Hollywood movie reference doesn't make much sense in most cases. Perhaps in all cases.
God bless you.
Orthodoxy: what is it? A temple cult?
Here's a a reference on what Orthodoxy says on cults:
"Destructive Cults A text by Panhellenic Parents Union for the Protection of the Greek-Orthodox Culture, the Family and the Individual
Destructive Cults
God save us all from our sins and our errors. God make us better and whole in Christ Jesus. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[NitzWalsh]

Friend, I just note your argument is ad hominem and therefore invalid. You say I "resort to childish tactics", and make this about what I'm doing, and not what Strangelove did by choosing his arbitrary username with no valid logic behind it. Using one's own real name or a synonym for it is not arbitrary.
Using some Hollywood movie reference doesn't make much sense in most cases. Perhaps in all cases.
God bless you.
Orthodoxy: what is it? A temple cult?
Here's a a reference on what Orthodoxy says on cults:
"Destructive Cults A text by Panhellenic Parents Union for the Protection of the Greek-Orthodox Culture, the Family and the Individual
Destructive Cults
God save us all from our sins and our errors. God make us better and whole in Christ Jesus. Amen.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

It's a perfectly valid point, you can't defend your beliefs so you attack user names and avatars.

 

[Fencepost]

Dear Scott,
WHich I have already proved Martin Luther did not even

believe in the interpretation of james.

How can you say these words?

He nailed the letter to the church door didn't he?

 

[Scotth1960]

How can you say these words?

He nailed the letter to the church door didn't he?

He was a heretic nailing the letter to the door of a heretical group. Luther's heretical schism within/against another heretical schism, papism. With Luther as a luthero-papist, with himself as his own pope over himself. Luther did indeed say words (I don't remember the exact words, but I do remember the words), Luther said, "I have a pope, Self, which I fear more than the pope [of Rome and all of his legates]."
Go figure.

 

[Strangelove]

I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove
This is a bald faced LIE. You ask BASIL for his prayers!

Then you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
Dear strangelove.
You are falsely accusing me of lying. It is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor. I ask the saints to pray for me.

What is the false witness?

You have made a very serious accusation on this point and we need you to clarify otherwise YOU are bearing false witness.

I said you ask basil for his prayers AND YOU ADMIT YOU DO!

So what gives Scotty?

 

[Strangelove]

Just notice this pearl on another thread Scotty:

Dear friend, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I am tired of the ad hominem attacks against me, and being falsely accused of lying. I don't call others names, use personal attacks against anyone, or say they are lying. If they bear false witness, though, I point that out. It's wrong to bear false witness. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

So can you explain your false witness against me? Will you apologise?

 

[Scotth1960]

Just notice this pearl on another thread Scotty:



So can you explain your false witness against me? Will you apologise?

You said I lied. It's not nice to falsely accuse someone of that.

When will you reveal your true national flag?
I am not being dishonest.
You keep switching national flags? Why?
I have nothing to apologize to you for.
I have much to apologize to God only for my many sins.
I have not done anything wrong against you.
I have treated you fairly.
Why not switch your national flag to USA?

 

[Strangelove]

You said I lied. It's not nice to falsely accuse someone of that.

Scott.....answer this post and stop being silly.

I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove
This is a bald faced LIE. You ask BASIL for his prayers!

Then you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
Dear strangelove.
You are falsely accusing me of lying. It is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor. I ask the saints to pray for me.

What is the false witness?

You have made a very serious accusation on this point and we need you to clarify otherwise YOU are bearing false witness.

I said you ask basil for his prayers AND YOU ADMIT YOU DO!

So what gives Scotty?

 

[Scotth1960]

Scott.....answer this post and stop being silly.

I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Strangelove
This is a bald faced LIE. You ask BASIL for his prayers!

Then you say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
Dear strangelove.
You are falsely accusing me of lying. It is wrong to bear false witness against your neighbor. I ask the saints to pray for me.

What is the false witness?

You have made a very serious accusation on this point and we need you to clarify otherwise YOU are bearing false witness.

I said you ask basil for his prayers AND YOU ADMIT YOU DO!

So what gives Scotty?

Dear friend;
You said I worship icons. I said the truth: I do not.
You are bearing false witness against the truth.
Am I bearing false witness when I say you chose to use Peter Sellers' photo as an image for yourself?
Why is it permissible to use an image of Peter Sellers for oneself, but it's not permissible to make images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mother, the Saints of God, scenes from the life of Christ? The Bible gives verbal images of scenes from the life of Christ. If the story of Christ can be told in words, why can't the story of Christ be told in pictures? What about those who can't read? Don't icons preaches the Biblical Christ to the illiterate?
Didn't God command images of cherubim be made on the Ark of the Covenant.
If God forbids the making of all images, why did God then command images on the Ark?
If such images can be made in the OT, why can't NT images be made in the NT?
I venerate icons. I don't say they are God or pray to them. I pray to God while I sometimes look at icons when I am praying.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[1still_waters]

Venerate...
: to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2
: to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

This is the typical semantic game these types play.

If you say they worship it, they'll deny the charge by saying they do something else. That something else is usually some hair difference between what you're charging them with and what they are doing.

It's like they go an inch away from the thing you're charging them with, and say...."see i'm an inch away. I'm not doing it."

It may not be 'worship', but you're still giving reverence and honor to an image. Sure it's not 'worship' but it's pretty much still something you shouldn't be doing to an icon.

 

[1still_waters]

What is...

intercessions of the holy Theotokos

?

 

[SantoSubito]

What is...

intercessions of the holy Theotokos

?

It's the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, The God-Bearer, The Virgin Mary, etc.

 

[1still_waters]

It's the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, The God-Bearer, The Virgin Mary, etc.

Part of your liturgy says...

Holy God, You dwell among Your saints. You are praised by the Seraphim with the thrice holy hymn and glorified by the Cherubim and worshiped by all the heavenly powers. You have brought all things out of nothing into being. You have created man and woman in Your image and likeness and adorned them with all the gifts of Your grace. You give wisdom and understanding to the supplicant and do not overlook the sinner but have established repentance as the way of salvation. You have enabled us, Your lowly and unworthy servants, to stand at this hour before the glory of Your holy altar and to offer to You due worship and praise. Master, accept the thrice holy hymn also from the lips of us sinners and visit us in Your goodness. Forgive our voluntary and involuntary transgressions, sanctify our souls and bodies, and grant that we may worship and serve You in holiness all the days of our lives, by the intercessions of the holy Theotokos and of all the saints who have pleased You throughout the ages.

Why does your liturgy appeal to the intercession of the virgin Mary?

 

[SantoSubito]

Part of your liturgy says...

Holy God, You dwell among Your saints. You are praised by the Seraphim with the thrice holy hymn and glorified by the Cherubim and worshiped by all the heavenly powers. You have brought all things out of nothing into being. You have created man and woman in Your image and likeness and adorned them with all the gifts of Your grace. You give wisdom and understanding to the supplicant and do not overlook the sinner but have established repentance as the way of salvation. You have enabled us, Your lowly and unworthy servants, to stand at this hour before the glory of Your holy altar and to offer to You due worship and praise. Master, accept the thrice holy hymn also from the lips of us sinners and visit us in Your goodness. Forgive our voluntary and involuntary transgressions, sanctify our souls and bodies, and grant that we may worship and serve You in holiness all the days of our lives, by the intercessions of the holy Theotokos and of all the saints who have pleased You throughout the ages.

Why does your liturgy appeal to the intercession of the virgin Mary?

That is actually a Eastern Orthodox liturgy, and I'm a Latin Rite Catholic. But to answer the question, it appeals to Mary's intercession because like all the Saints she is in Heaven, and can pray for us. Other Saints are invoked in various other liturgies, and in this particular liturgy all the Saints are invoked.

 

[Strangelove]

Dear friend;
You said I worship icons. I said the truth: I do not.

Why does your liturgy say you worship icons then?

Why can your liturgy say it but I cant?

And aslo..

Why do you ask basil for his prayers when you could be talking to a dead guy and commiting an abomination against God?

And also..

Why did you lie when you said you dont talk to the saints?

 

[NitzWalsh]

Why does your liturgy say you worship icons then?

Why can your liturgy say it but I cant?

And aslo..

Why do you ask basil for his prayers when you could be talking to a dead guy and commiting an abomination against God?

And also..

Why did you lie when you said you dont talk to the saints?

I think it has to do with how you define worship. You take worship to mean that the icons used are worshipped in place of God, where I think the Orthodox church takes worshipping icons to mean an act of veneration, at least that's what I get from Scott and others.


And I think about the praying to saints is him petitioning them to pray with him on his behalf, so he has some other voices working for him, not that he's praying to them in place of God. So not actually talking to them, but calling upon them.

I see a difference there anyway.

 

[Scotth1960]

Venerate...
: to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2
: to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

This is the typical semantic game these types play.

If you say they worship it, they'll deny the charge by saying they do something else. That something else is usually some hair difference between what you're charging them with and what they are doing.

It's like they go an inch away from the thing you're charging them with, and say...."see i'm an inch away. I'm not doing it."

It may not be 'worship', but you're still giving reverence and honor to an image. Sure it's not 'worship' but it's pretty much still something you shouldn't be doing to an icon.

Friend:
Yes. It is not worship.
Consider how the word worship can be used.
It doesn't always mean revere as God.
The Anglican (Protestant) marriage ceremony:
"With my body I thee worship, and to thee all my worldly gifts endow."
Scott Harrington Erie PA

Dear friend:
Exodus 25:9 SAAS OSB page 97: "According to all I show you, that is, the pattern of the tabernacle and the patters of all its furnishings, so you shall make it." 25:9 The use of icons in the Church is not idol worship, for God commanded the use of icons in their worship. These icons were "the pattern of the tabernacle and the pattern of all its furnishings." The honor given the icons in the Church passes over to the prototype (John of Damascus; Basil the Great)."
Read these chapters in Exodus and see how God commanded icons (images) of cherubim, etc. to be made in the ark of the covenant and the furnishings of the OT tabernacle. If there are furnishings in the OT, there are furnishings in the NT, because God's law does not change, unless God makes a change, as He did through Christ in the dietary regulations and the cessation of animal sacrifices due to the coming of the One Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross and His shed blood as the atonement (forgiveness) of sins.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington