Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

[mailmandan]

Saved by grace...

Saved by grace through faith...

Yes, saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

 

[mailmandan]

We are a new creation designed for good works.

We are only saved by the grace of Jesus Christ from start to finish.

We stand in grace.

Yes. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[mailmandan]

What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean trusting in Jesus' sacrifice alone for salvation? Because if we do that then we are ignoring what Jesus said about how we should live.

Are you trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) or are you also trusting in your performance/works for salvation? In regard to how we live, we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10) We are saved FOR good works and not by good works. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:22-26) No supplements needed.

In Romans 4 Paul is explaining that salvation is not only to workers of the law: that's the context of works in this passage (this is made clear if you start at the end of Romans 3). He goes on to say:

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Works are not merely limited to specific works of the law.

Abraham followed through on the words of God. His faith was imputed to him for righteousness, because he was fully persuaded that what God promised he was also able to perform. Paul says "now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead". I think what Paul is saying here is that Jesus was given words to speak by God and that we are to believe God's words. Jesus taught us explicitly how we should live, I think it's vital to follow through on Jesus' words if we are to have eternal life. The "faith alone" message is void of the necessity of living out Jesus' commands. Someone can believe totally in Jesus' sacrifice for their sins, but they're still not living in accordance with what Jesus taught if they stop short there.

Romans 4:1 - What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

You seem to have more faith in your best efforts to live in accordance with what Jesus taught then you do in His death, burial and resurrection as the means of your salvation. Living in accordance with what Jesus taught is the result of becoming a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) after being saved through faith. We don't simply conjure up obedience from an unregenerate heart. Many people who are "religious, but not right with God" will find that out the hard way. (Matthew 7:22-23)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

This is problematic. You really don't understand what this means? What exactly are you trusting in for salvation?

If you mean trusts in his words, then yes I think I might agree with you. If you mean trusts alone in his sacrifice, then I think you're missing out on what he taught, which I believe is a necessity to understand.

By trusting in His words, it sounds to me like you are trusting in your best efforts to obey everything that Jesus taught as the means of your salvation (works salvation) instead of trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer? *The answer to this question will demonstrate exactly what you are trusting in for salvation.

 

[Nedsk]

We are a new creation designed for good works.

We are only saved by the grace of Jesus Christ from start to finish.

We stand in grace.

Do we have a choice to those good works?

You know works are necessary but you want to claim it's faith that saves but that faith is completed by works.

Everything we have is given to use by God's grace. Life itself is possible only because of God's grace.

 

[Nedsk]

No. We are saved only by the completed works of Christ not by our works. For man, our good works come as the result of salvation, they are not its cause.

[Tit 3:4-7 KJV]
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

No has claimed anything you said here

 

[rogerg]

No has claimed anything you said here

Okay, for clarity, who's completed works do you think are necessary for salvation and what do you think @Inquisitor doesn't like, as stated in your post of #845?

 

[Nedsk]

Okay, for clarity, who's completed works do you think are necessary for salvation and what do you think @Inquisitor doesn't like, as stated in your post of #845?

What do you mean whose works? Does Scripture not say, "Thus, you can see that his (Abraham's) faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works." ? How is this unclear? Faith is completed by works therefore faith alone can't be sufficient for salvation otherwise it wouldn't need completion. How do you complete with works something that is already complete?

 

[rogerg]

What do you mean whose works? Does Scripture not say, "Thus, you can see that his (Abraham's) faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works." ? How is this unclear? Faith is completed by works therefore faith alone can't be sufficient for salvation otherwise it wouldn't need completion. How do you complete with works something that is already complete?

Thanks, and that's what I thought you meant, and no, his works were not a requirement for his salvation. I am not saying that it is unclear - I'm saying you are incorrect. In fact, by anyone believing there is such a requirement, it means they are under God's wrath. Apparently, you don't believe that Jesus alone is THE Savior - as scripture clearly states that He is - which means that man isn't and therefore can't contribute to his own salvation. It is by Christ's faith, Christ's works, and Christ's righteousness, through the Father's exceeding mercy and grace, that brings salvation to those whom He had chosen for it. It is not by man in any sense.

 

[mailmandan]

In James 2:21, James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Hence, complete by works. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

 

[Nedsk]

Thanks, and that's what I thought you meant, and no, his works were not a requirement for his salvation. I am not saying that it is unclear - I'm saying you are incorrect. In fact, by anyone believing there is such a requirement, it means they are under God's wrath. Apparently, you don't believe that Jesus alone is THE Savior - as scripture clearly states that He is - which means that man isn't and therefore can't contribute to his own salvation. It is by Christ's faith, Christ's works, and Christ's righteousness, through the Father's exceeding mercy and grace, that brings salvation to those whom He had chosen for it. It is not by man in any sense.

Not what Scripture says so I can believe you or I can believe what scripture says. I'd refer you to Jesus who said, "Not everyone who says to Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father.", but why?

Maybe Paul who said, "For each of us must appear before th judgment seat of Christ so that each on may receive suitable recompense for his conduct in the body, whether good or bad". Nah they're "incorrect" too, right?

 

[Nedsk]

In James 2:21, James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Hence, complete by works. Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

His faith was brought to completion by his works. It's there in black and white but you ignore it. Good for you.

 

[mailmandan]

His faith was brought to completion by his works. It's there in black and white but you ignore it. Good for you.

I already explained what "complete" means in post #869 but you ignored it. Now let's hear your explanation without your sarcasm.

 

[mailmandan]

What do you mean whose works? Does Scripture not say, "Thus, you can see that his (Abraham's) faith and his works were active together; his faith was brought to completion by works." ? How is this unclear? Faith is completed by works therefore faith alone can't be sufficient for salvation otherwise it wouldn't need completion. How do you complete with works something that is already complete?

Translation: Salvation by faith AND works.

 

[Nedsk]

Translation: Salvation by faith AND works.

It has to be a cognitive issue with you. It's saved by faith that is completed by works. I never realized how I've always taken for for granted the ability bto read with comprehension.

 

[mailmandan]

It has to be a cognitive issue with you. It's saved by faith that is completed by works. I never realized how I've always taken for for granted the ability bto read with comprehension.

Was Abraham saved by faith when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and God accounted it to him for righteousness or was his faith incomplete to save him until many years later, after he accomplished the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22?

 

[Nedsk]

Was Abraham saved by faith when he believed in the Lord in Genesis 15:6 and God accounted it to him for righteousness or was his faith incomplete to save him until many years later, after he accomplished the work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22?

I'm just telling you what Scripture says. You're argument isn't with me friend. Do you need me to show it to you AGAIN? Maybe seeing it for the 1 millionth time will allow you to answer your own question.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm just telling you what Scripture says. You're argument isn't with me friend. Do you need me to show it to you AGAIN? Maybe seeing it for the 1 millionth time will allow you to answer your own question.

That is not an answer to my simple straight forward questions.

 

[Nedsk]

That is not an answer to my simple straight forward questions.

Im not interested in your questions as they have nothing to do with Scripture. Had Abraham not brought his son to be sacrificed his faith would not have been complete just like James teaches. I'll ask you a simple straight forward question

Why would faith need completion if faith alone (by itself) is sufficient for salvation?

The fact is you know works are necessary but you couch it in the silliness of:

Works are a result of faith
Works flow from Faith
Works are a product of faith
We're built for works (that's a favorite of mine)
We want to do works because of the holy spirit

You people twist yourselves into a pretzel to avoid acknowledging works are necessary for salvation as faith alone won't cut it. Matt 7:21

 

[legion]

Once again. That's their problem. It has nothing to do with being justified as Abraham, by works of faith toward God, not by works in the flesh by law.



You mean the quoted Scripture? Or, the teaching from the quoted Scriptures?

Neither Scriptures nor teaching of Scriptures are trash, except to them that disbelieve and obey not the truth:

Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report…For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written,





And so, whether SDA or Protestant Christianity, if they preach justification by works of law, or justification by no works at all, both are false gospels of another christ:

Gal 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.






It's because of Jesus' death for sins on the cross, and by His resurrection from the dead, that He can grant repentance unto salvation from sinning, and justification with righteous works of God.

Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Justifiers by faith-alone without works are denying repentance from sinning against Him, that died for our sins.




And denying what exactly the Bible is saying elsewhere.

Mar 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Of all people, Christians ought know from the unbelieving Jews that crucified Jesus Christ, that traditions of men are not necessarily Scripture of God.

Christian traditions today still teach people sinning against God, and crucifying Jesus to themselves daily.

If you don't see this by being educated as a Protestant Christian, Scripture is just now telling you and trying to wake you up.

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.



It certainly isn't saying you disagree, having found no way to disagree.



Correct. I'm not looking at works as a Protestant Christian sinner.

I only look at works in Scripture of a Christian holy saint:

1 Peter{1:14}
As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

3 John{1:11}
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that is doing good is of God: but he that is doing evil hath not seen God.



And therefore anyone can only conclude that you are not a holy Christian saint, and that's your problem. You can stick with whatever you want to believe while sinning against God, but you cannot get away with it. And God will not let you get away with trying to insert your sinful gospel into established Scriptures, that are believed and obeyed by all the church and body of Jesus Christ, since His death, burial, and resurrection unto life.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Gal 6:7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man is sowing, that shall he also reap. For he that is sowing to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sowing to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting…For there is no respect of persons with God.

The main problem with faith-alone justification without works, is you believe eternal life is just about doctrine, and not about works we do. While doctrine of Christ is all about works we do:

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done. Whether they be good or bad.

1 Peter {1:15}
Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

It's our works that are judged, not our doctrine alone.

Obviously. Preaching a gospel of justification by faith alone with continued sinning, misleads many people into continued sinning by their faith alone.

How can preaching doing righteousness at all times by faith toward God, mislead anyone into continued sinning?

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

Scripture does not mislead anyone into continued sinning, whether with or without faith.


Works of unrighteousness only reward us condemnation.

2Ti 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

2Pe 2:13
And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.

Works of righteousness inherits resurrection from the dead.

Collosians{3:23}
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Works of ministry in righteousness receives cities of reward, to rule during Jesus Christ's Millennium on earth.

Luk 19:16
Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

You obviously don't understand how this conflict just arising Apparently both of us read the Bible And we take A different truth from it You're simply saying your truth Is true and my truth is not

That's why I say It's just trash I know what the truth is You have no way of proving me otherwise And I have history on my side anyway Not to mention That the basic edicts of Protestant Christianity rely on the works of Christ on the cross not our works Because it is by faith alone that we are saved.

If you deal disagree with that fine What you're disagreeing with is Protestant Christianity not me.

I understand the different views and I would argue I understand your view better than you do. And yet I still have a different conclusion the reason is I didn't just stop where you've stopped I continue to fight for the truth and to find the synchronicity within the Bible as it relates to the theology that I have adapted to.

I will say this if you believe that works as part of the Salvation and you did and you are doing works then don't worry about it go on about your happy day if you want to persist in attacking my understanding of scripture rather than find better defense of yours I'm not sure I can help you

And show the further clarify my position with two points and then in a conclusion. 1. I do not believe works is a part of how you get saved I do believe that once you are saved you will show works 2. I will also note as a side subject and example that I do not believe that baptism is required for salvation however I have been baptized.

So by your definition of Works being necessary I have them and by those people who believe that salvation requires baptism I've met those conditions too so if that's the case then you have nothing to tell me I'm already fulfilling what you're assuming I'm not doing. Is there anything else I can help you with

 

[Inquisitor]

Everything we have is given to use by God's grace. Life itself is possible only because of God's grace.

You have just confirmed that we are only saved by Christ alone and by His grace.

Life is merely Christ first and Christ last in everything throughout life, history, and the scripture.

Based on the depth of your understanding of Christ's sovereignty over reality itself.

You will better conceive of the depth and height of that love of Jesus Christ for us.

We have no where else to go as an unbeliever or a believer, there is not an alternate reality.

Saved by grace through that trust in Jesus and you played no part in that.

Your ability to trust Jesus and conduct works is designed into reality.

All we can do is to not resist the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

We are led by the Holy Spirit, ultimately.