Because you won't, walk the walk, in Jesus unless you really believe in Jesus.
Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.
- Thread starter ATG
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Even if you complete a good work your still standing in the Lord's grace to save you.
Nothing changed because Jesus alone has saved us.
It is more accurate to see that a good work is God's grace working through you.
Rather than a good work that is a necessary work you must perform.
God is all about love and there is no greater work than a work performed in that deeper love of Jesus.
You are not interested in answering my questions because your answers would have exposed you. If Abraham would have refused to bring his son to be sacrificed then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.
Complete does not mean complete in finally able to save. Again, Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before he offered up his son Isaac on the altar and faith was made complete.
Necessary evidence of faith for all to see/we show our faith by our works (James 2:18) but not the necessary means by which we obtain salvation. Now man up and admit that you teach works salvation.
Amen!
Thank you for admitting that you teach works salvation. It was obvious! Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation cuts it (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works does not cut it. The latter is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
True in Romans 4.
In James 2 God justifies a man by works for Him.
And so, you can continue in Rom 4 and never be justified by any of your works. But if you do not go on to James 2 and be justified by doing works for God, then you will also never be justified by God.
Justification is only by God's grace to do works through Jesus Christ our Lord. (See James 2 above.)
The "pertaining to the flesh" of Rom 4:2 means that Abraham's works pertaining to the flesh not justify him. Such as circumcision of the flesh.
The "justified by works" in James 2 is Abraham was justified with God by doing works for Him.
Faith-alone justifiers without works, change Rom 4 to say what it does not say, that man cannot be justified by any works at all. And then take away what James 2 does say, that a man can be justified by works for God.
Deu 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Why does God command not to change His words? That we may keep His commandments. Why do sinners change His words,
No, it is you who is incorrect.
lol - did you actually read AND understand the verse you quoted? Here, look at it again below. Do you see in it the "judgment seat of Christ"? It doesn't say the judgment seat of works that judgment is to be rendered to everyone relative to their works because there is no judgment seat of works and so no one can be saved by their works. Instead, it says "judgment seat of Christ" - that judgment will be rendered to everyone relative to Christ and all He represents as THE Savior - whether their sins have been forgiven by/through Him by God's grace - the good - or be judged by a trust in their works - the evil- which will be the cause of their judgment, not an escape from it.
[2Co 5:10 ESV] 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
And here is the judgment:
[Heb 10:29 ESV] 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
By the verse you've chosen, you've managed to disprove your own point.
True. Which accounting was fulfilled in Gen 22 with Abraham being justified by works.
James{2:21}
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Abraham was not called the Friend of God until doing the work of offering up Isaac for God.
Jhn 15:14
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Which is why Jesus says the same for all them that do His will, and not believe only.
At least you acknowledge offering up Isaac was a work. One faith-alone justifier tries to say Abraham wasn't justified by his work, because he didn't sacrifice Isaac.
I see. So being justified is not always being 'justified', but rather sometimes being justified is something more mysterious, that can only be revealed by higher knowledge.
So, is being justified by faith-alone without works being justified? Or, rather is it also like the mysterious justification by works, that does not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.
Only being justified by faith-alone without works is being justified. Being justified by faith with works is not being justified, but instead does not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.
Do you insert the mystery justification revelation into James 2, in order to clarify the difference?
2Co 1:12
For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward…But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Anyway back to the simplicity of Scripture: Abraham was justified by the work of offering up Isaac.
James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
And a man is not justified by faith only.
Since you're going to interchange justification with salvation in James 2, then Scripture reveals that Abraham was saved by works, when he offered up Isaac. And by works is a man saved, not by faith only.
I'm simply saying the Scriptures I quote and teach is true. You simply say not.
I have nothing to say about your stuff, since it's only what you say without quoting Scripture.
I choose the Scriptures instead.
Mar 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Exactly. You really just do not understand what's happening here.
Mat 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
You really just do not understand what's happening here.
Jhn 1:5
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Mat 6:23
But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Mat 7:26
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
So, let's cut to the quick:
Once you are saved, when you show unrighteous works, are you saved and justified by your faith-alone?
No one in the flesh can be justified by their works. Works for righteousness's sake demeans and nullifies Christ as Savior because the Father sent Him forth specifically to be put to death to be an offering and sacrifice to fully justify those He came to save. In essence, what you're saying would mean that Christ did not achieve what the Father sent Him here to achieve, and which the Father and Christ specifically told us that He did perfectly achieve.
I don't understand your point, but if you're saying that grace leads to works and by those works, we become saved, then that isn't grace, it's works, and works can't save but actually brings forth God's wrath because it would negate Christ's perfect offering and sacrifice. Through Christ, grace, in itself, saves for those to whom was intended. Nothing besides God's grace through Jesus Christ for salvation is either required or permitted.
No. Everyone is justified in exactly the same way which is that salvation is solely given by God's grace through Jesus Christ THE Savior as a completely free gift, which also included Abraham. It is why God told us that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness, not that Abraham earned righteousness by his works,
[Rom 4:9 KJV] 9 [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Deu 4:2 is from the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. The terms of New Covenant are completely different then the terms of the Old Covenant for those whom God had chosen to place under the New Covenant.
Righteous Works flow from, are a product and result of righteous faith
Evil Works flow from, are a product and result of evil faith.
Faith-alone justification manifesto:
We're built for good works, and but we still do evil works.
We want to do good works because of the holy spirit, but we still do evil works because of the devil.
But, by grace-alone through faith-alone apart from our works, we are saved and justified forever and ever and ever, unconditionally...
Jesus Christ the righteous justifies righteous works. The unrighteous Christ justifies unrighteous works.
Accounting was accomplished in Genesis 15:6 when Abraham believed in the Lord. In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Justified by works does not mean saved by works.
When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.
Are you implying that Abraham remained a lost man when his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 until many years later, after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? Abraham was called a friend of God, in contrast to those who have no genuine acts of obedience to demonstrate their faith and are therefore seen to be friends of the world. (James 4:4)
Believing in Jesus is God's will for us to become saved. (John 6:40) Not to be confused with doing God's will after we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18)
Offering up Isaac was a work (James 2:21) and he was shown to be righteous by it.
Justified does not always mean "accounted as righteous."
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
dikaioō
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
This is not a mystery, and you are making this out to be much more complicated than it really is.
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
Abraham was justified (shown to be righteous) by the work of offering up Isaac. Abraham was not justified (accounted as righteous) by works, which is clear in (Romans 4:2-3). I am not interchanging justification (accounted as righteous) with salvation. You are taking the word "justified" and painting it with a broad-brushed definition of "accounted as righteous" then applying it to James 2:24, which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness in contradiction to Romans 4:23, which is a "different" gospel.
*You need to keep in mind that James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Well that's fine and dandy that you have been down that long road but that doesn't mean that you actually learned anything as evidence by your continuous support that works that Jesus did did not cover you and instead you still need to do something to be saved you are denying the work of Jesus Christ on the cross on behalf of you it's a pretty simple thing
I am saved
Okay first if you actually knew what the Bible said you would understand that I am using the scripture in the text of my sentences I'm not breaking out dropping the chapter in verse because I've read about and I know what they say
The fact is what it really appears to me is you just like attacking my position and you don't understand it cuz I've said it several times but I'll say it again yes I am saved by faith alone because God gave me the grace to have the faith and it was through his works that I'm safe he did it all we had nothing to do with our Salvation except for to choose to follow Jesus Christ and believe he is who he is
If you can't see that in Scripture then nobody can tell you and I am not going to hand you the fish you're going to be forced to learn how to fish because I don't want jerks with an attitude in the fold it's called protecting the flock
Now having said that I do recall posting quite a lengthy response with five or six versus completely point of that that you just dismissed so obviously you are the definition of stupid which actually for all intents and purposes means you are unable to learn.
, I even gave you an out by suggesting hey if you believe that works are required and hey that's what you're doing them great and thus as for me my faith was enough for my salvation yet I do produce fruit and works so even by your definition I'm doing works but you didn't take that step out what you did is decide to try to trash me yet again and I'm getting kind of tired of it you either accept it or you don't you don't keep badgering people that they're wrong and slandering because in face to face would get you punched
We should take into account that the scripture has been edited, twisted, as Peter said would happen, 2 Peter 3:15-16.
The words of Paul have been edited, in Ephesians 2:8 the edit is denoted by italics in many Bibles.
"it is" should be "the Holy Spirit is". Context makes clear that the Holy Spirit is the free gift. Luke 11:13 Galatians 3:2 Acts 2:38
Paul is not saying that entering heaven is a free gift. ( Ephesians 5:5 )
The full context of Paul's words makes clear that the gift is freedom from sin via the Spirit, not sinless perfection, but freedom from the personal sin that enslaves us, as the Spirit leads us to realize the slavery and empowers is to break free from it.
The Lord is the Spirit 2 Corinthians 3:17
now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life
Romans 6:22 Galatians 6:7-8
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
Romans 8:13-14
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of having life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19
The words of Paul have been edited, in Ephesians 2:8 the edit is denoted by italics in many Bibles.
"it is" should be "the Holy Spirit is". Context makes clear that the Holy Spirit is the free gift. Luke 11:13 Galatians 3:2 Acts 2:38
Paul is not saying that entering heaven is a free gift. ( Ephesians 5:5 )
The full context of Paul's words makes clear that the gift is freedom from sin via the Spirit, not sinless perfection, but freedom from the personal sin that enslaves us, as the Spirit leads us to realize the slavery and empowers is to break free from it.
The Lord is the Spirit 2 Corinthians 3:17
now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life
Romans 6:22 Galatians 6:7-8
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
Romans 8:13-14
Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of having life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Romans 5:18-19
Fulfilled does not mean finally accounted as righteous or saved by works in Genesis 22. In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
You keep saying Abraham was not a friend of God until he offered up Isaac on the altar, which implies he was an enemy of God, prior to that. Even after his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6. Is that what you are implying? It's not about intellectually believing something only then never acting on that belief. Genuine belief results in actions appropriate to the belief, as we see in Genesis 22. Had Abraham refused to offer up Isaac on the altar, then he would have demonstrated a lack of belief.
James 2:21 clearly states: Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? So, it was obviously a work, and the only question left is, "what sense was Abraham justified by works?" Faith-alone justification pertains to being accounted as righteous (Romans 4:2-6) and does not imply that works will not follow. (James 2:14)
Do you still not understand that there is more than one definition of justified?
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
dikaioō
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - James 2:24.
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*
God gave us a sin nature but he doesn't have one. God gave man a finite nature, but he doesn't have one. This list could be multiplied on and on but what more do we need than what has already been said.
You need to look at the Greek text and understand Greek grammar to resolve this. The modifier to "saved" is neither Grace or Faith.
There are plenty of scholars who have written volumes on the Subjective Genitive, and the Objective Genitive. Your responses above would indicate that you are not familiar with these scholars' works. English wont help you in this discussion.
How could God give us a sin nature? He does not have a sin nature so how can He give it to us? The sin nature came about by man's disobedience.
We are saved by christ alone but that's not the same as faith alone. You folks just can't pay attention
If faith alone is sufficient for salvation then why bother saying Abraham's faith was completed by works?You are not interested in answering my questions because your answers would have exposed you. If Abraham would have refused to bring his son to be sacrificed then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but of course, that was not the case.
Complete does not mean complete in finally able to save. Again, Abraham's faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before he offered up his son Isaac on the altar and faith was made complete.
Necessary evidence of faith for all to see/we show our faith by our works (James 2:18) but not the necessary means by which we obtain salvation. Now man up and admit that you teach works salvation.
Amen!
Thank you for admitting that you teach works salvation. It was obvious! Faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation cuts it (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) yet an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works does not cut it. The latter is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith.
Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
