Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

[LeeLoving]

Not rude at all.

So, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you have sufficiently followed ALL of His teachings and now the Lord will be able to save you based on the merits of your performance? Is that salvation through faith or salvation by works? You seem to be trusting in your obedience/works (follow his teachings in the sermon on the mount) for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

You must not confuse 'descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture. Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. You seem to be confusing God's will for us to BECOME saved (believing in Jesus for salvation) with God's will for us AFTER we have been saved. (following His teachings)

As soon as you "add" trusting in your performance/works for salvation you are no longer trusting in Jesus alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Ah, yeah. Unless I'm mistaken, we take believing in Jesus to mean two different things. When I see John 6:40 for instance I agree with it, but I don't take it to mean that we are to believe the gospel for example and that's the end of it, but we are to believe in the full revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah), and the gospel according to John was written that people might believe Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31).

John 8:24-32 King James Version
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If you consider these words from John 8, Jesus is saying that people will die in their sins unless they believe that he is the Christ (the Messiah). He goes on to say that they will know that he is the Christ when they lift him up, and that he does nothing of himself, but that he was speaking the words of God his Father. Many Jews believed on him for these words and he tells them "if you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed". I think this is a pivotal passage in understanding just what it means to "believe in Jesus".

From what Jesus says in John 8 one interpretation is to believe that he is the Christ (Messiah) with the implication being he was given words by God to speak. These words include his teaching on how we should live. To be a disciple of Jesus is to continue in his words. Therefore I believe the message "believe in Jesus to have eternal life" really means to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that he was given words by God to speak and that we are to follow his teachings for eternal life. I believe that is what believing in him is. To believe in him for who he is and to believe his words.

Jesus commands us to be perfect in the sermon on the mount, so I honestly believe it takes a constant effort. We are to enter in through the strait (narrow) gate that leads to life.

Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[mailmandan]

Ah, yeah. Unless I'm mistaken, we take believing in Jesus to mean two different things. When I see John 6:40 for instance I agree with it, but I don't take it to mean that we are to believe the gospel for example and that's the end of it, but we are to believe in the full revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah), and the gospel according to John was written that people might believe Jesus was the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31).
John 8:24-32 King James Version
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

If you consider these words from John 8, Jesus is saying that people will die in their sins unless they believe that he is the Christ (the Messiah). He goes on to say that they will know that he is the Christ when they lift him up, and that he does nothing of himself, but that he was speaking the words of God his Father. Many Jews believed on him for these words and he tells them "if you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed". I think this is a pivotal passage in understanding just what it means to "believe in Jesus".

Believing in Jesus includes that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) the Son of God. Matthew 16:13 - When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” 14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Believing this is not the end of it. We must also believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

From what Jesus says in John 8 one interpretation is to believe that he is the Christ (Messiah) with the implication being he was given words by God to speak. These words include his teaching on how we should live. To be a disciple of Jesus is to continue in his words. Therefore I believe the message "believe in Jesus to have eternal life" really means to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and that he was given words by God to speak and that we are to follow his teachings for eternal life. I believe that is what believing in him is. To believe in him for who he is and to believe his words.

You turn believe in His words into believe in your best efforts to follow his teachings as the basis or means of receiving eternal life. That culminates in salvation by works and involves believing in self for salvation and not exclusively in Him.

Jesus commands us to be perfect in the sermon on the mount, so I honestly believe it takes a constant effort. We are to enter in through the strait (narrow) gate that leads to life.

Matthew 7:13-14 King James Version
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So, you believe that entering in through the strait (narrow) gate means live a sinless, perfect life and merit eternal life? I believe that entering in through the strait (narrow) gate is through faith in Jesus Christ, trusting exclusively in Him for salvation.

 

[legion]

Yeah I totally agree that it really is Faith through Grace and that Christ did everything that we would normally have been required to do whether as a gentile or as a Israelite

I believe that the Christian doctrine as we understand it for salvation through faith alone is evident throughout the New Testament and it's teachings

I've spent literally decades trying to knock over this premise and I see people arguing only at the surface level of this based on not actually considering the text as it is written or even as it was intended in the Greek

I often spot that when people want to deviate from the basic teachings in the New Testament as presented they often will go to a particular word choose a first, second or tertiary meaning and alter the context with no support from any other text in the Bible

Those who understand the big picture and overarching story from Genesis to revelation and have a cohesive storyline that results from this can easily spot when people jump in The Fray and start pointing out some teaching that is false as if it were the truth

Well there can be a lot of complexity especially at the theological level of the Bible the narrative is pretty clear and can be understood reading it in English only or whatever language you choose I do not believe that there is any significant corruption or error in our current King James nasb ESV and a few other translations that have very solid translations occurring

These fluff teachings that creep up seem to all be rehashes perhaps with a new twist on heresies already resolved hundreds if not thousands of years ago but it is enough for those who are not well discipled to go on a rabbit Trail and shipwreck their faith

 

[LeeLoving]

Believing in Jesus includes that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) the Son of God. Matthew 16:13 - When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” 14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Believing this is not the end of it. We must also believe the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

You turn believe in His words into believe in your best efforts to follow his teachings as the basis or means of receiving eternal life. That culminates in salvation by works and involves believing in self for salvation and not exclusively in Him.

So, you believe that entering in through the strait (narrow) gate means live a sinless, perfect life and merit eternal life? I believe that entering in through the strait (narrow) gate is through faith in Jesus Christ, trusting exclusively in Him for salvation.

Well, that's the thing. Jesus predicates salvation on living a certain way in his sermon on the mount (I tried to show you this but you rejected it and interjected John 6:40 into his words in Matthew 7:21 saying this is what he meant by doing the will of the Father, when he specifically means doing his sayings which can be seen in Matthew 7:24).

In the sermon on the mount Jesus teaches us to live a certain way and predicates our eternal destiny on following his teachings.

My salvation is through faith in Jesus, that he told the truth (and that he is who he says he is), and also that he died for my sins. If I didn't believe in Jesus I would have no reason to follow his teachings, but I do believe in Jesus and therefore it is an imperative to follow his teachings. I'm justified by my works, like James writes. If I were to just believe in Jesus and not follow through, my faith would be dead, but I'm putting in my best effort to follow through, so I am justified by my works. I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus; I didn't conjure this up on my own, it is the words of Jesus I am following and the faith is a gift from God. But I am created in Christ Jesus unto good works, like Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10.

Jesus died for my sins and took the full consequence for them, but I personally don't think it's God's intention that someone just believe the gospel and be saved, regardless of how they live their life. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus did come to teach righteousness while he was on the earth. He lays it out in simple terms in his sermon on the mount and says those who put his sayings into practice he will consider wise, that they've built their house upon a rock.

I think entering in through the strait (narrow) gate is just that, to examine things and to enter in through the strait gate. This seems to be the immediate context of his words. I don't take it to exclusively mean believing in him, because the immediate context is not that of believing in him.

So I don't believe that someone can believe the gospel and just be sealed as saved, they have to live righteously according to Jesus' teachings too. I think that is a part of what believing in Jesus is, to believe his words. The thief on the cross is an interesting example where I think there is practicality in this. He believed in Jesus and was saved, but I think he also repented in his conversion, though he may not have known Jesus' exact words in order to follow them. This would be enough, he would be being perfect as Jesus commanded us if he were to only repent and place his faith in Jesus, given that's all that was possible for him.

 

[ATG]

No one in the flesh can be justified by their works.

No one walking after the flesh can be justified by their works, because they are unrighteous works of the flesh.

You are purposely conflating walking in natural flesh and blood, with walking after the flesh in unrighteousness.

Jesus walked in the flesh on earth, but not after the flesh in unrighteousness. So also do them that walk as He walked in the flesh.

1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Works for righteousness's sake demeans and nullifies Christ as Savior

It certainly offends your unrighteous Christ, but certainty not Jesus Christ the righteous.

because the Father sent Him forth specifically to be put to death to be an offering and sacrifice to fully justify those He came to save. In essence, what you're saying would mean that Christ did not achieve what the Father sent Him here to achieve, and which the Father and Christ specifically told us that He did perfectly achieve.

Typical convoluted faith-alone justification

Rom 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Jesus Christ succeeds in justifying everyone that repents, by their new righteous works in Him.

Yet, it's not Jesus that fails, when others are not justified by their unrighteous works, because it's they who fail to repent.

Rom 2:3
Despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: For there is no respect of persons with God.

I don't understand your point,

I know, for the 2nd or 3rd time now:

Mat 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

but if you're saying that grace leads to works and by those works, we become saved,

Such gross misstatement only proves that the point is understood all too well.

Through Christ, grace, in itself, saves for those to whom was intended.

Calvin predeterminism now? Are you one of the prechosen before creation?

When man sinned, salvation is now intended for every man that repents: All men that sin are called to repentance, but not all men repent.

Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Nothing besides God's grace through Jesus Christ for salvation is either required or permitted.

Not once any man repents of dead works for Jesus' sake.

At repentance salvation, sanctification, and justification is immediate by the Spirit's circumcision of Christ.

No. Everyone is justified in exactly the same way which is that salvation is solely given by God's grace through Jesus Christ THE Savior as a completely free gift,

Unrepented sinners that want their own salvation for free, are freeloaders that refuse to do their part and repent of unjustly shedding Jesus Christ's innocent blood on a cross.


Act 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

which also included Abraham.

Which did not include Abraham, who was justified by works, not by faith only.

James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only…Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Your faith-alone justification book is not the Bible.

Tit 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

 

[mailmandan]

Well, that's the thing. Jesus predicates salvation on living a certain way in his sermon on the mount (I tried to show you this but you rejected it and interjected John 6:40 into his words in Matthew 7:21 saying this is what he meant by doing the will of the Father, when he specifically means doing his sayings which can be seen in Matthew 7:24).

I did not reject the words of Jesus in His sermon on the mount. Who was his audience? John 6:40 fits perfectly with Matthew 7:21. You seem to conflate doing the will of the Father IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED (John 6:40) with doing the will of the Father AFTER we have been saved. (Matthew 7:24) The end result is salvation by works/works righteousness.

We also see the will of God for believers AFTER they have been saved in 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

In the sermon on the mount Jesus teaches us to live a certain way and predicates our eternal destiny on following his teachings.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus teaches the law by shifting focus from eternal rule following to internal transformation and the spirit of the law. You seem hung up on the letter of the law. So, who follows the teachings of Jesus? Believers or unbelievers? Are you trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? (salvation through faith) OR are you trusting in your best efforts to follow His teachings in order to save yourself? (salvation by works)

My salvation is through faith in Jesus, that he told the truth (and that he is who he says he is), and also that he died for my sins. If I didn't believe in Jesus I would have no reason to follow his teachings, but I do believe in Jesus and therefore it is an imperative to follow his teachings. I'm justified by my works, like James writes. If I were to just believe in Jesus and not follow through, my faith would be dead, but I'm putting in my best effort to follow through, so I am justified by my works. I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus; I didn't conjure this up on my own, it is the words of Jesus I am following and the faith is a gift from God. But I am created in Christ Jesus unto good works, like Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10.

Justified by works does not mean saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

James 2:24 (Living Bible) states: "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone." This verse emphasizes that true faith is demonstrated through actions and deeds, rather than just intellectual belief in God.

Jesus died for my sins and took the full consequence for them, but I personally don't think it's God's intention that someone just believe the gospel and be saved, regardless of how they live their life. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus did come to teach righteousness while he was on the earth. He lays it out in simple terms in his sermon on the mount and says those who put his sayings into practice he will consider wise, that they've built their house upon a rock.

Don't confuse the unrighteousness (children of the devil) in (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) who practice sin (Galatians 5:19-21) with the righteous (children of God) who practice righteousness and not sin. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

I think entering in through the strait (narrow) gate is just that, to examine things and to enter in through the strait gate. This seems to be the immediate context of his words. I don't take it to exclusively mean believing in him, because the immediate context is not that of believing in him.

So, believing in yourself and not exclusively in Him is the strait gate? As read past verses 13 and 14, we see that Jesus is contrasting false prophets/bad trees that bear bad fruit/those who practice lawlessness with believers/good trees that bear good fruit/ those who do the will of the Father/those who hear the words of Jesus and puts them into practice. The latter is descriptive of believers.

So, I don't believe that someone can believe the gospel and just be sealed as saved, they have to live righteously according to Jesus' teachings too. I think that is a part of what believing in Jesus is, to believe his words.

So, according to you, faith + works = salvation? Should we disregard Ephesians 2:8,9?

The thief on the cross is an interesting example where I think there is practicality in this. He believed in Jesus and was saved, but I think he also repented in his conversion, though he may not have known Jesus' exact words in order to follow them. This would be enough, he would be being perfect as Jesus commanded us if he were to only repent and place his faith in Jesus, given that's all that was possible for him.

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING.

Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) Of course, he died while still hanging on the cross before having the opportunity to accomplish good works.

 

[rogerg]

No one walking after the flesh can be justified by their works, because they are unrighteous works of the flesh.

You are purposely conflating walking in natural flesh and blood, with walking after the flesh in unrighteousness.

Jesus walked in the flesh on earth, but not after the flesh in unrighteousness. So also do them that walk as He walked in the flesh.

1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


It certainly offends your unrighteous Christ, but certainty not Jesus Christ the righteous.



Typical convoluted faith-alone justification

Rom 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Jesus Christ succeeds in justifying everyone that repents, by their new righteous works in Him.

Yet, it's not Jesus that fails, when others are not justified by their unrighteous works, because it's they who fail to repent.

Rom 2:3
Despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: For there is no respect of persons with God.



I know, for the 2nd or 3rd time now:

Mat 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.



Such gross misstatement only proves that the point is understood all too well.



Calvin predeterminism now? Are you one of the prechosen before creation?

When man sinned, salvation is now intended for every man that repents: All men that sin are called to repentance, but not all men repent.

Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.



Not once any man repents of dead works for Jesus' sake.

At repentance salvation, sanctification, and justification is immediate by the Spirit's circumcision of Christ.


Unrepented sinners that want their own salvation for free, are freeloaders that refuse to do their part and repent of unjustly shedding Jesus Christ's innocent blood on a cross.


Act 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?...Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;



Which did not include Abraham, who was justified by works, not by faith only.

James{2:21}
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only…Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Your faith-alone justification book is not the Bible.

Tit 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

I would demean the gospel and Christ if I replied to the false doctrine and lies of your heretical post.

BTW Tit 3:10 is speaking about YOU!

 

[legion]

Well, that's the thing. Jesus predicates salvation on living a certain way in his sermon on the mount (I tried to show you this but you rejected it and interjected John 6:40 into his words in Matthew 7:21 saying this is what he meant by doing the will of the Father, when he specifically means doing his sayings which can be seen in Matthew 7:24).

In the sermon on the mount Jesus teaches us to live a certain way and predicates our eternal destiny on following his teachings.

My salvation is through faith in Jesus, that he told the truth (and that he is who he says he is), and also that he died for my sins. If I didn't believe in Jesus I would have no reason to follow his teachings, but I do believe in Jesus and therefore it is an imperative to follow his teachings. I'm justified by my works, like James writes. If I were to just believe in Jesus and not follow through, my faith would be dead, but I'm putting in my best effort to follow through, so I am justified by my works. I am saved by grace through faith in Jesus; I didn't conjure this up on my own, it is the words of Jesus I am following and the faith is a gift from God. But I am created in Christ Jesus unto good works, like Paul writes in Ephesians 2:10.

Jesus died for my sins and took the full consequence for them, but I personally don't think it's God's intention that someone just believe the gospel and be saved, regardless of how they live their life. Paul said the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, and Jesus did come to teach righteousness while he was on the earth. He lays it out in simple terms in his sermon on the mount and says those who put his sayings into practice he will consider wise, that they've built their house upon a rock.

I think entering in through the strait (narrow) gate is just that, to examine things and to enter in through the strait gate. This seems to be the immediate context of his words. I don't take it to exclusively mean believing in him, because the immediate context is not that of believing in him.

So I don't believe that someone can believe the gospel and just be sealed as saved, they have to live righteously according to Jesus' teachings too. I think that is a part of what believing in Jesus is, to believe his words. The thief on the cross is an interesting example where I think there is practicality in this. He believed in Jesus and was saved, but I think he also repented in his conversion, though he may not have known Jesus' exact words in order to follow them. This would be enough, he would be being perfect as Jesus commanded us if he were to only repent and place his faith in Jesus, given that's all that was possible for him.

I'm going to post this one more time and then I'm out of the conversation you're being ignorant to stick on your point and your arguments don't hold water because your interpretation of them contradict the written text

When other caveat I simply asked Google for the text providing evidence of salvation by faith alone which is something that humankind has well documented and Google is 100% in line and it's response so it's not hallucinating or having some kind of calculation error any Protestant church will tell you the same thing so...

Christian salvation is based on grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by human works, to ensure it is a gift rather than earned merit. Key scriptures state that believers are justified apart from works of the law, affirming salvation is not of ourselves, lest anyone should

Primary Proof Texts:

• Ephesians 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast".
• Romans 3:28: "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law".
• Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy...".
• Galatians 2:16: "...a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.".
• Romans 4:5: "However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness".
• 2 Timothy 1:9: "[God] has saved us and called us... not because of our works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us...".

Key Theological Distinctions:

• Works as Evidence, Not Cause: Good works are the result or evidence of salvation, not the cause of it (Ephesians 2:10; James 2:17).
• Grace vs. Works: Romans 11:6 argues that if salvation is by grace, it cannot be based on works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
• The Thief on the Cross: Luke 23:43 serves as an example of instant salvation through faith without the opportunity for good works

 

[rogerg]

Christian salvation is based on grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by human works, to ensure it is a gift rather than earned merit. Key scriptures state that believers are justified apart from works of the law, affirming salvation is not of ourselves, lest anyone should

It is important to note that certain biblical translations phrase salvation as being attained through the faith of Christ, rather than through our faith in Christ. This distinction carries significant theological implications: if salvation depended on our individual faith in Christ, it would suggest that the responsibility for salvation rests with us, instead of Christ as Savior. In this scenario, salvation would be contingent on our capacity to fulfill such a requirement, thus placing us under law rather than grace.

For salvation to be considered fully and genuinely by grace, all conditions necessary for salvation must have been completely fulfilled by Christ Himself, given as a free gift, with no further achievements required on our part. If Christ has not accomplished and satisfied these requirements in entirety, then one cannot assert that salvation is wholly by grace. Nevertheless, it is important to note that personal faith in Christ remains meaningful; it serves as an indication of the authenticity of our salvation and enables our inclusion among believers, the brethren, though it is not the causal factor for salvation itself.


Scripture tells us there is a law of faith, the question is, that as a law, who must satisfy it: us or God?
If by us, then beyond question, we are still under law; if by God, then it and salvation is truly by grace

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Here is the KJV biblical translation which describes the faith of Christ as that which brings justification/salvation not our faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Act 4:12 KJV] 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

 

[legion]

It is important to note that certain biblical translations phrase salvation as being attained through the faith of Christ, rather than through our faith in Christ. This distinction carries significant theological implications: if salvation depended on our individual faith in Christ, it would suggest that the responsibility for salvation rests with us, instead of Christ as Savior. In this scenario, salvation would be contingent on our capacity to fulfill such a requirement, thus placing us under law rather than grace.

For salvation to be considered fully and genuinely by grace, all conditions necessary for salvation must have been completely fulfilled by Christ Himself, given as a free gift, with no further achievements required on our part. If Christ has not accomplished and satisfied these requirements in entirety, then one cannot assert that salvation is wholly by grace. Nevertheless, it is important to note that personal faith in Christ remains meaningful; it serves as an indication of the authenticity of our salvation and enables our inclusion among believers, the brethren, though it is not the causal factor for salvation itself.


Scripture tells us there is a law of faith, the question is, that as a law, who must satisfy it: us or God?
If by us, then beyond question, we are still under law; if by God, then it and salvation is truly by grace

[Rom 3:27 KJV] 27 Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Here is the KJV biblical translation which describes the faith of Christ as that which brings justification/salvation not our faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Act 4:12 KJV] 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I'm actually not sure what side of the "our Faith for Jesus faith" you are coming from. I believe I understand what you're trying to say however...

It is my understanding that Jesus called us to repentance gives us Grace and in doing so provides the ability for us to have faith in one sense it is all because Jesus did provided, grace, faith, and the ability to believe in him.

It seem clear in Scripture that Jesus works to build our faith, so you can say Jesus gave us faith, or you can say i have faith. Both are valid statements.

I tend to throw all this on Jesus work on the cross. Rather than claim my actions caused it. YET I do in fact choose, daily how to handle the faith I've been given. I can say to my self, in a general sense, "I don't need this, God's provision is sufficient." Or i can give in to a weaker option, and say "i don't need this, but, I want it anyway."

The phrase "faith of christ" is ambigious to me. I have faith, given to me by christ. It is mine and it is also christs. I have not dug into the Greek and contextual side of your references yet, so I won't be dogmatic about it.

The depth of my belief is based on the faith I've been given. The faith is given to me because of the grace of God who called me. Is it "my" faith... i think so because I can choose to not act on it. Is it Faith of Jesus, i think it is, given to me as a Gift through Grace.

Hopefully you can see what im saying. Ultimately, I do not see a difference in who we say "owns" the faith. And seems to be splitting hairs without reason.

 

[rogerg]

Hopefully you can see what im saying. Ultimately, I do not see a difference in who we say "owns" the faith. And seems to be splitting hairs without reason.

I'll try to reply to your post in greater detail later - maybe tomorrow - but regarding the above, the difference is in who
is the causation of true faith: with one it is a free gift from Christ by His grace; with the other, is of/from man's works by the requirements of law - the difference between the two is great and irreconcilable. If by man's work, then he is under law and not under grace, but by the works of law no one can become saved. It is freely given by Christ but only to those whom He had chosen to salvation

 

[legion]

I'll try to reply to your post in greater detail later - maybe tomorrow - but regarding the above, the difference is in who
is the causation of true faith: with one it is a free gift from Christ by His grace; with the other, is of/from man's works by the requirements of law - the difference between the two is great and irreconcilable. If by man's work, then he is under law and not under grace, but by the works of law no one can become saved. It is freely given by Christ but only to those whom He had chosen to salvation

That's good enough... I do clearly believe the causation is of faith is a free gift...

 

[LeeLoving]

I did not reject the words of Jesus in His sermon on the mount. Who was his audience? John 6:40 fits perfectly with Matthew 7:21. You seem to conflate doing the will of the Father IN ORDER TO BECOME SAVED (John 6:40) with doing the will of the Father AFTER we have been saved. (Matthew 7:24) The end result is salvation by works/works righteousness.

We also see the will of God for believers AFTER they have been saved in 1 Thessalonians 5:14 - Now we exhort you, brethren, warn those who are unruly, comfort the fainthearted, uphold the weak, be patient with all. 15 See that no one renders evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue what is good both for yourselves and for all. 16 Rejoice always, 17 pray without ceasing, 18 everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.

In the sermon on the mount, Jesus teaches the law by shifting focus from eternal rule following to internal transformation and the spirit of the law. You seem hung up on the letter of the law. So, who follows the teachings of Jesus? Believers or unbelievers? Are you trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? (salvation through faith) OR are you trusting in your best efforts to follow His teachings in order to save yourself? (salvation by works)

Justified by works does not mean saved by works. James is not using the word "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

James 2:24 (Living Bible) states: "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone." This verse emphasizes that true faith is demonstrated through actions and deeds, rather than just intellectual belief in God.

Don't confuse the unrighteousness (children of the devil) in (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) who practice sin (Galatians 5:19-21) with the righteous (children of God) who practice righteousness and not sin. (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9)

So, believing in yourself and not exclusively in Him is the strait gate? As read past verses 13 and 14, we see that Jesus is contrasting false prophets/bad trees that bear bad fruit/those who practice lawlessness with believers/good trees that bear good fruit/ those who do the will of the Father/those who hear the words of Jesus and puts them into practice. The latter is descriptive of believers.

So, according to you, faith + works = salvation? Should we disregard Ephesians 2:8,9?

In Matthew 27:39-44, we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests' scribes and elders blasphemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING.

Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved. (Luke 23:40-43) Of course, he died while still hanging on the cross before having the opportunity to accomplish good works.

Yes, I believe we have to live righteously in order to receive eternal life. So in a sense it is faith+works=salvation, but it is truly salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. It's trust in who he is, what he did, and what he said. The work of following his teachings is the natural response to faith in him.

Romans 6:20-23 King James Version
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes, I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ, and not because of works I've done, and I am his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works. I see no issue with this. I think I see what you're trying to say though, that works don't contribute at all to salvation - I don't agree. Jesus commands us to be righteous, so yes we must perform the work of being righteous in my opinion to be saved. That said, it doesn't matter if I had saved someone from a burning building, nothing I did contributed to my salvation, it was by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Romans 4:1-5 King James Version
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I didn't work at all for my salvation. I was a horrible person and God showed himself in my life in various ways that allowed me to come to faith in Jesus. According to Romans 3 it is because of my faith that God justifies me, and it is wrought with how I respond to Jesus, because I believe his words.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, I believe we have to live righteously in order to receive eternal life. So in a sense it is faith+works=salvation, but it is truly salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

So, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you lived righteously "enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Faith + works = salvation negates salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You can't have it both ways. (Romans 11:6)

It's trust in who he is, what he did, and what he said. The work of following his teachings is the natural response to faith in him.

According to you, faith in what He said culminates in faith in what you DO for salvation (salvation by works) which waters down and ultimately negates faith in what He DID.

Romans 6:20-23 King James Version
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Your fruit unto holiness does not mean salvation by works. Instead, it describes holiness as the result of being made free from sin and becoming a servant of God. The end is everlasting life, just as the end of being a servant of sin Paul argues that believers, having been freed from sin now bear fruit as servants of God, and the end, everlasting life.

In Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense - "servants of sin unto death," or "servants of obedience unto righteousness." When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants of righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, then created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) So, we are saved FOR good works and not by good works.

Yes, I am saved through faith in Jesus Christ, and not because of works I've done, and I am his workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works.

Elsewhere you said otherwise, when you stated: "in a sense it's faith + works = salvation."

I see no issue with this. I think I see what you're trying to say though, that works don't contribute at all to salvation - I don't agree.

You have an issue with this and don't even seem to realize it. By saying works contribute to salvation, you are saying that works (in addition to faith) are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, at least in part, in contradiction to Ephesians 2;8,9.

Jesus commands us to be righteous, so yes we must perform the work of being righteous in my opinion to be saved.

So, just how righteous must you be before the Lord is able to save you? How many works of righteousness must you perform in order to be saved? Your opinion clashes with Titus 3:5, which states, we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. Do you believe we are saved by personal righteousness (works righteousness) or imputed righteousness apart from works? (Romans 4:5-6)

That said, it doesn't matter if I had saved someone from a burning building, nothing I did contributed to my salvation, it was by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yet elsewhere you are saying otherwise.

Romans 4:1-5 King James Version
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Amen!

I didn't work at all for my salvation. I was a horrible person and God showed himself in my life in various ways that allowed me to come to faith in Jesus. According to Romans 3 it is because of my faith that God justifies me, and it is wrought with how I respond to Jesus, because I believe his words.

More sugar-coated double talk.

 

[LeeLoving]

So, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you lived righteously "enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Faith + works = salvation negates salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You can't have it both ways. (Romans 11:6)

According to you, faith in what He said culminates in faith in what you DO for salvation (salvation by works) which waters down and ultimately negates faith in what He DID.

Your fruit unto holiness does not mean salvation by works. Instead, it describes holiness as the result of being made free from sin and becoming a servant of God. The end is everlasting life, just as the end of being a servant of sin Paul argues that believers, having been freed from sin now bear fruit as servants of God, and the end, everlasting life.

In Romans 6:16, there is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense - "servants of sin unto death," or "servants of obedience unto righteousness." When we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (Acts 15:7-9; 1 Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being servants of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become servants of righteousness."

*Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

Saved by grace through faith, NOT WORKS, then created in Christ Jesus FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10) So, we are saved FOR good works and not by good works.

Elsewhere you said otherwise, when you stated: "in a sense it's faith + works = salvation."

You have an issue with this and don't even seem to realize it. By saying works contribute to salvation, you are saying that works (in addition to faith) are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, at least in part, in contradiction to Ephesians 2;8,9.

So, just how righteous must you be before the Lord is able to save you? How many works of righteousness must you perform in order to be saved? Your opinion clashes with Titus 3:5, which states, we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done. Do you believe we are saved by personal righteousness (works righteousness) or imputed righteousness apart from works? (Romans 4:5-6)

Yet elsewhere you are saying otherwise.

Amen!

More sugar-coated double talk.

It's the faith in Jesus that saves me, because of the faith I will respond to his words, so I'm saved through faith, and am a creation in Christ Jesus unto good works. These are works I must do though as someone who believes Jesus' words. They're not optional, so in a sense it is salvation through faith+works, but like I said it is truly salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, because it is the faith that leads to the works.

So, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that you lived righteously "enough" so now the Lord will be able to save you? Faith + works = salvation negates salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) You can't have it both ways. (Romans 11:6)

I think it's a matter of where we are in life and what we're actually doing, if we're following Jesus' teachings and actually living according to them it will show in our lives. We will be producing fruits of righteousness. I used to play a lot of online poker, but through actually taking into account what it is when I play it I understood that I'm contributing to the downfall of other people for my own profit: this isn't living in accordance to Jesus' teachings, though I may have believed he died for my sins. I can't have it both ways, and the words of Jesus and Paul condemn me if I play it: the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If I live unrighteously it doesn't matter if I "believe in Jesus". This puts the imperative on me to live righteously in order to receive eternal life. I can't see it another way because the words of the Bible are crystal clear: the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If salvation were as simple as believing the gospel for instance it wouldn't matter, because I would be saved and any works I did past that point would just be the icing on top, but that's not real life and I had to change things about my life in order to be living righteously. It's through faith in Jesus Christ that I made these changes, because if I didn't believe in him I would never have made these changes. So it is by grace through faith that I've been saved.

John 8:31-36 King James Version
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

By following Jesus' teachings I'm made free from sin, and am no longer a servant to it. I think this is an important part of salvation, I don't think it just stops at believing the gospel and then you're saved. A lot of Christians seem to think this way, that works have nothing to do with salvation, that it is solely dependent on Christ's sacrifice, and believing in it is enough. This is false in my opinion. It leads to easy-believism and not to the knowledge of what Jesus spoke about when he was here, namely sin and its outcome and how we should live if we want eternal life. That said I think there is an important distinction to make, my salvation is by grace through faith, I believe in Jesus, it's by faith. The works I do are a natural result of the faith I have, and they are necessary for my salvation. It's not enough to just believe, I must follow through on what Jesus said, but it is the faith that saves me, because the faith is what makes me want to follow his words. It is not of works, I didn't save someone from a burning building and therefore I'll go to heaven, but through faith.

Romans 6:16-18 King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

It seems Paul is saying we can sin unto death in these verses but it is through obedience from the heart that a man can avoid it.

*Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

If I'm to believe on God to be justified for my sins I'm to believe his Son (since Jesus spoke the words of God), which necessitates me following through on his words. It's not works I did up until that point that saved me (so I did not work), but my faith - the faith is wrought in works though. It's a delicate thing to understand, because when someone just reads Romans 4 here it seems like Paul is saying nothing is necessary for salvation but faith, this is not the implication of his words though. If you have faith in Jesus you will have faith in his words and he says only those who do the will of the Father will be saved, that's why Paul isn't contradicting the gospel when he writes:

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 4:23-24 King James Version
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

I wrote this before, but I think what Paul is saying here is that we must believe on God's words that Jesus spoke and righteousness will be imputed to us for our faith.

I believe someone is saved when they believe in Jesus, because that faith will allow for them to follow Jesus' words. Furthermore, we're justified by God for believing the gospel. I don't think it's enough to just believe the gospel though for salvation, I think we must be doers of Jesus' words too, since that is what he taught.

 

[mailmandan]

It's the faith in Jesus that saves me, because of the faith I will respond to his words, so I'm saved through faith, and am a creation in Christ Jesus unto good works. These are works I must do though as someone who believes Jesus' words. They're not optional, so in a sense it is salvation through faith+works, but like I said it is truly salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, because it is the faith that leads to the works.

Works are not forced or legalistic for those who have been saved through faith and are new creations in Christ Jesus. Good works are the fruit, byproduct and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith but not the very essence of faith and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

I think it's a matter of where we are in life and what we're actually doing, if we're following Jesus' teachings and actually living according to them it will show in our lives. We will be producing fruits of righteousness. I used to play a lot of online poker, but through actually taking into account what it is when I play it I understood that I'm contributing to the downfall of other people for my own profit: this isn't living in accordance to Jesus' teachings, though I may have believed he died for my sins. I can't have it both ways, and the words of Jesus and Paul condemn me if I play it: the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If I live unrighteously it doesn't matter if I "believe in Jesus". This puts the imperative on me to live righteously in order to receive eternal life. I can't see it another way because the words of the Bible are crystal clear: the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If salvation were as simple as believing the gospel for instance it wouldn't matter, because I would be saved and any works I did past that point would just be the icing on top, but that's not real life and I had to change things about my life in order to be living righteously.

It sounds to me like you have more faith in your best efforts to live righteously for salvation, then you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

It's through faith in Jesus Christ that I made these changes, because if I didn't believe in him I would never have made these changes. So it is by grace through faith that I've been saved.

Plus making changes (works) according to your statement.

John 8:31-36 King James Version
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

By following Jesus' teachings I'm made free from sin, and am no longer a servant to it. I think this is an important part of salvation, I don't think it just stops at believing the gospel and then you're saved.

The Bible clearly states that believing the gospel saves. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 1:18-21; 15:1-4) You seem determined to "add" works to the gospel which makes those works meritorious towards receiving salvation.

A lot of Christians seem to think this way, that works have nothing to do with salvation, that it is solely dependent on Christ's sacrifice, and believing in it is enough. This is false in my opinion.

You believe it's false because you trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone.

CONTINUED..

 

[mailmandan]

It leads to easy-believism and not to the knowledge of what Jesus spoke about when he was here, namely sin and its outcome and how we should live if we want eternal life.

Easy-believism? Does salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) sound too easy for you? Salvation by faith + how we live (works) is clearly what you teach.

That said I think there is an important distinction to make, my salvation is by grace through faith, I believe in Jesus, it's by faith. The works I do are a natural result of the faith I have, and they are necessary for my salvation.

So, how many works does it take? How many works must you accomplish an "add" to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Jesus save you? Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to say believers. (Romans 3:22-26) No supplements needed.

It's not enough to just believe,

Hmm.. (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

I must follow through on what Jesus said, but it is the faith that saves me, because the faith is what makes me want to follow his words. It is not of works, I didn't save someone from a burning building and therefore I'll go to heaven, but through faith.

Oxymoron.

Romans 6:16-18 King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 10:16)

1 Peter 1:22 - Purified yourselves by obeying the truth.

Acts 15:9 - Purifying their hearts by faith.

It seems Paul is saying we can sin unto death in these verses but it is through obedience from the heart that a man can avoid it.

I already thoroughly explained all of this in post #934.

If I'm to believe on God to be justified for my sins I'm to believe his Son (since Jesus spoke the words of God), which necessitates me following through on his words. It's not works I did up until that point that saved me (so I did not work), but my faith - the faith is wrought in works though. It's a delicate thing to understand, because when someone just reads Romans 4 here it seems like Paul is saying nothing is necessary for salvation but faith, this is not the implication of his words though. If you have faith in Jesus you will have faith in his words and he says only those who do the will of the Father will be saved, that's why Paul isn't contradicting the gospel when he writes:

You continue to try and "shoehorn" works "into" ssalvation through faith, not works.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Philippians 3:9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Romans 4:23-24 King James Version
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

I wrote this before, but I think what Paul is saying here is that we must believe on God's words that Jesus spoke and righteousness will be imputed to us for our faith.

Believe on Jesus, trusting in Him as the all sufficient means of your salvation. Do not add or take away from the cross.

I believe someone is saved when they believe in Jesus, because that faith will allow for them to follow Jesus' words. Furthermore, we're justified by God for believing the gospel. I don't think it's enough to just believe the gospel though for salvation, I think we must be doers of Jesus' words too, since that is what he taught.

Being a doer of Jesus words is the fruit of salvation and believing the gospel is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. If you do not think believing the gospel is enough to save you, then what you are really saying is what the gospel represents (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) is insufficient to save you.

 

[LeeLoving]

If you read Jesus' words carefully in Matthew 7 you will see he is telling people you must do the will of the Father to enter into the kingdom of heaven, and that he is correlating the will of the Father with his sayings.

Matthew 7:21-24 King James Version
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

The will of the Father is his will over how we live, as is evidenced by it being correlated to his sayings. It's not simply to "believe in Jesus" (like you said when you interjected John 6:40 here). John 6:40 is the Father's will, that those who believe on Jesus may have everlasting life - it's not his will for us.

When I say there are works that have to do with my faith this is what I'm taking about, living in a way that coincides with the will of the Father. As someone who believes in Jesus I recognize that the onus is on me to follow through on Jesus' words here. I'm not saved by simply believing the gospel: if that were true I could do whatever I wanted after believing and still be saved. This isn't true though, the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God. It takes an effort on my part to live righteously, in line with what Jesus preaches. I can't just do whatever I want.

Furthermore, I take believing in Jesus to mean believing in his teachings too. So yes, of course we are saved by believing in Jesus, but this can't be separated from following through on his teachings, because if we aren't following his teachings then what exactly are we believing about him? Believing the gospel and just having this huge blind-spot where his teachings are I believe will lead someone to damnation on the basis of Matthew 7:21-24 alone.

So from what I can surmise, salvation comes through belief in Jesus, which leads to obedience with regards to what he preached. This also includes belief in the gospel, through which we are justified. Both things have to be happening in unison or there is no salvation. God will not be mocked, whatever a man sows that he shall reap.

Hebrews 12:14-17 King James Version
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I know you read these verses completely differently, because we went over them before, but it says to take heed lest any man fail of the grace of God. These are written after Hebrews 10:26-31 where we're warned that if any man sins willfully they will have no sacrifice for their sins. So from these verses it can be taken that how someone lives does indeed impact their salvation. We must follow Jesus' teachings.

 

[LeeLoving]

1 John 2:1-6 King James Version
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

According to John, this is how we know we are in Christ, if we keep his words. Also according to this, you do not even know him if you don't keep his commandments, how can you believe in someone you don't know? That's why I take the salvation that is talked about in John 3 to include following his teachings, ie. believing in him to also include believing in his words. If someone just believes the gospel but doesn't follow through on Jesus' words they don't even know him according to John.

 

[LeeLoving]

1 John 5:20 King James Version
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

So eternal life is being in the Son, and we know we are in the Son if we keep his words (1 John 2:5), therefore someone must keep his words to have eternal life. According to John, just believing the gospel is not enough.