Eternal Security

[mwc68]

That depends on how you define Christian. I define Christian as one who accepts Scripture (Both Old and New Testaments) as the absolute standard of authority and EVERYTHING that contradicts Scripture as a lie or an error.
This acceptance must go beyond mental assent and be the basis for both faith and lifestyle.

I believe that this definition includes all the essential beliefs , doctrine and teachings necessary for Salvation.

I also believe that this definition excludes the teachings of the RCC, Mormons, JWs, and Jewish Roots Movement, among others.

You have a right to your opinion

 

[Sirk]

Living in guilt, worry or fear is not the Christian way of life. The Lord doesn't want you crying yourself to sleep.

What our Lord wants us to do is get our focus back on Him, and the fact that He took our guilt so we have no worry or fear.

Repenting or naming and siting our sins is, " I did that, you took care of it." And we rest in His victory.

We are to live in His victory over our failures.It is freedom and rest.

Guilt, worry and fear are all sins. He does not want us living in them.

And this is just as much for me as anyone.

And I don't even like to picture a sister in Christ crying herself to sleep. You do not need to, and shouldn't.

if I can add to this that in Gods economy, guilt is a learning tool, not a way of life.

 

[Elizabeth619]

Living in guilt, worry or fear is not the Christian way of life. The Lord doesn't want you crying yourself to sleep.

What our Lord wants us to do is get our focus back on Him, and the fact that He took our guilt so we have no worry or fear.

Repenting or naming and siting our sins is, " I did that, you took care of it." And we rest in His victory.

We are to live in His victory over our failures.It is freedom and rest.

Guilt, worry and fear are all sins. He does not want us living in them.

And this is just as much for me as anyone.

And I don't even like to picture a sister in Christ crying herself to sleep. You do not need to, and shouldn't.

I don't like it either, but I will admit some of you all have lightened my spirits today. Which has made me smile. Thanks for that.

Yet there are still some people on this site I would still love to choke if I saw them in person. Yeah, I am pretty sure I need prayers. I know I am mean at times, but I am honest.

 

[Utah]

I know these things, but that doesn't mean the devil isn't bugging the crap out of me right now and preying on my weaknesses. It's a struggle at times.

According to our faith, let it be done.

The next time the evil one tries to mess with you, break his fingers in Jesus' Name.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

This thread is exhibiting a lot of "taking personally" posts that, quite honestly, probably were a bit too personal or standoffish. No one is superior to anyone else, and if someone feels a certain way, it isn't our place to judge them as living an awful emotional life.

Several of us are trying to instill an attitude on this board that respects differing opinions, while embracing the essentials. While some of the essentials are in dispute amongst us, for example the title of this thread, I see no reason to make statements about how someone is living, charging them with major error, or generally establishing an aura of superiority around ourselves because we believe "A" and the person to whom we're responding believes "B."

I believe in eternal security, and it is, in my opinion, an essential doctrine. Accusing the opposing view of wrong belief is not productive, though, and will build walls, not bridges.

Let's not charge in wearing full armor and bearing swords to dispute one way or another, please. Let's discuss, give reasons, and when we don't agree -- and we won't -- abandon the discussion. There is no reason to beat dead horses, particularly when the horse wasn't ours to begin with.

Please.

 

[atwhatcost]

Catholic is Christian, anywho, How do you reconcile these scriptures if OSAS is real?1 Cor 10:11-12, 2 Tim 2:11-12

I just made dessert. It has a little whole wheat flour, a little more Splenda, a couple of eggs, a half cup of powdered chocolate, walnuts, cherries, blueberries and apple sauce. I need a name for it. Can you give me a name for it?

I'm figuring if you're just whipping out questions totally unrelated to what I ASKED as if I told you something instead of ASKED questions, why can't I do the same thing to you? (That, and I would like a name for this dessert. lol)

It's really a bad sign that you read anything I asked if the only thing you got out of that was "She's the woman who can translate a couple of verses for me."

But I did get something out of what you wrote. I got "This person thinks whatever he's thinking at this very moment is much more important than hearing anyone else." In which case, there is no dialog. There are people talking, and then there is you -- a wall.

 

[Utah]

Indeed, it is a struggle. We are at war. But the victory has already been won. We are to rest in the Lord, and be joyful over the fact our sins have all been forgiven. Your strength needs to come from the fact that your sins will never again be counted against you. There is no more condemnation for you. God's wrath no longer rests on you. You have been completely redeemed - completely forgiven. That is God's promise, and the source of our hope and happiness.

Amen to this!

Thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[MarcR]

But you should still know what he meant.

NO SARCASM INTENDED! Please inform me what I should know about what Jason meant when he cited John 5:48.


Flob correctly stated that his Bible didn't have that verse; and I replied that nobody else's Bible has it either. I suggested that it might have been a typo.

I usually agree with you; so I am asking you to clarify your point.

 

[atwhatcost]

I believe God wanted me to play the flute so i wouldnt sing

The only way what I do is covered under God enjoying it is "Make a joyful noise." I'm joyful. I can noise! I just can't sing or play an instrument. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

I was looking at Hebrews 6:4-6
I am on my tablet and it won't copy and paste right so I just gave the location of the verses but I noticed that in verse 6 it said if they should fall away and I was thinking wouldn't they have to be saved before it would be possible to fall away?

If it is not possible to fall away why would GOD inspire the writer of Hebrews to even bother warning us of that since its not possible to fall away.

Sounds like it saying that if you were really saved you can't fall away but I am going to warn you about it even though you don't have to worry about it.

People that are not saved can't fall away so why even put that in the bible if it's talking to unsaved people

The beginning of Hebrew 6 in context:
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
3 And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance,because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God.
8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case--things that accompany salvation.
10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.
11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.
12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

 

[Gr8grace]

NO SARCASM INTENDED! Please inform me what I should know about what Jason meant when he cited John 5:48.


Flob correctly stated that his Bible didn't have that verse; and I replied that nobody else's Bible has it either. I suggested that it might have been a typo.

I usually agree with you; so I am asking you to clarify your point.

That is basically what Jason said to flob in his response back to flob!

flob should of known the verse that he actually meant to post.

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

I was looking at Hebrews 6:4-6
I am on my tablet and it won't copy and paste right so I just gave the location of the verses but I noticed that in verse 6 it said if they should fall away and I was thinking wouldn't they have to be saved before it would be possible to fall away?

If it is not possible to fall away why would GOD inspire the writer of Hebrews to even bother warning us of that since its not possible to fall away.

Sounds like it saying that if you were really saved you can't fall away but I am going to warn you about it even though you don't have to worry about it.

People that are not saved can't fall away so why even put that in the bible if it's talking to unsaved people

I believe the passage is a reductio ad absurdum argument the writer of Hebrews proposed. That is "reducing [the point] to an absurdity" -- taking the issue of salvation to it's basest point and showing through absurdity that losing it is impossible. The key to this is v. 1, in which he says "Let us press on, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God." There doesn't appear to me to be any other motivation for opening his line of thought in that fashion.

He is indeed discussing people who have saving faith in vv. 4-6, but again, within the strictures of the reductio ad absurdum argument. He says for one so enlightened, so engaged ("tasted"), who has partaken of the Holy Spirit, who has then fallen away, "it is impossible renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

Is Christ ever crucified "to us"? No, "but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD" (Hebrews 10:12). The argument proposes that those who think they have "fallen away" when actually saved are taking it upon themselves to recrucify Christ, which is the ultimate absurdity.

The coup de gras ending this absurdity is found in vv. 7, 8:

Hebrews 6, NASB
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.​

In other words, the "rain" of the Gospel falls on everyone. In some in produces "useful vegetation" and they receive the blessing of the Holy Spirit, whereas in others that "rain" produces worthlessness -- a "faith" that is not saving faith, but only intellectual assent or emotional reaction. What is produced proves they did not receive the Holy Spirit and therefore were not saved.

It requires more than walking an aisle and saying a prayer. It is a true and heartfelt confession of being a sinner in need of a Savior who is Christ the Lord, and God's acknowledgement of that confession by His gift of the Holy Spirit. I pray you receive this post in the manner it is intended, to give light to you and perhaps induce to to rethink what you have believed about the sufficiency of Christ toward eternal security. God bless.

 

[p_rehbein]

No. We can know what the Bible says plainly by the Spirit. The Scriptures say we will be guided into all truth by the Spirit. In 1 John 2:27, John tells the brethren that they have an anointing from God and they need not that anyone needs to teach them and that they are taught all things.

Also, the Bible means what it says. Jesus said why do you call me Lord, Lord, if you do not what I say? In other words, a person who does not do what Jesus says cannot call Him, Lord.

Wow, you really, really missed the point of the comment............

 

[p_rehbein]

Meanwhile...........back at the funny farm..............is this thread discussing OSAS or musical instruments in Church, or the length of women's hair, or how to properly celebrate communion, or maybe water baptism?

Aww, gee, I was hoping it was another Grace/Works one...........sigh.......

 

[Gr8grace]

Paul uses the logic of "a fortiori" quite often in his teaching.

A fortiori is Latin and means with stronger reason. If one can do 100 push-ups it stands to reason that one can do 10.

Rom 5~~"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more [pollos mallon/'a fortiori] then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

If God gave us His highest and best while we were yet sinners(His son), it stands to reason that He can do the lesser of delivering the believer from His wrath.

 

[atwhatcost]

You couldn't be more wrong. We may thank God for things, but we also feel a lot of guilt knowing that our actions need repentance. Every night I pray to God for help, strength, and forgiveness. Most nights I am in tears. There have even been nights I have actually hope God would take me in my sleep so I don't suffer another day. Please tell me, how is that pride or the attitude of a Pharisee?

Just because you may not agree with one's belief doesn't mean you know their heart or their struggles, and it certainly doesn't give you or anyone the right to doubt their closeness to God.

Is this something like your nightly prayer?
"Oh Lord. I screwed up so badly today. I should be better than this. I should be better than this. I. Should. Be. Better than. This. I will be better. I will be better. I will be better. (What if I can't be better?) I have to be better. Lord, I have to be better. I will be better. I will, I will, I will.

Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake. I'll be eternally grateful that I don't have to repent tomorrow, because I have to be better than this. I will be better than this. I promise. Amen."

 

[atwhatcost]

It is NOT our role to determine where anyone will spend eternity; but we are to attempt to lead to Christ EVERYONE whose life does not exhibit the fruit of the Spirit.

So no right at all? Just love?

 

[p_rehbein]

So, I'm wondering, if God created both man and woman...........and God considers it a sin for woman to cut her hair, why is it that some women suffer from "balding/loss of hair' just like some men?

Oh, wait, I know......it was PREDESTINED from the beginning they would suffer such, because they were not included in the group who were predestined to eternal salvation.

Either that, or they/their fathers or mothers must have committed some horrible sin, and they are being punished for it.


Um, hmm, wait, maybe I shouldn't fuss about all of this. I'm thinking there is a lucrative business opportunity here. I could produce and sell WIGS of LONG HAIR to women for when they enter the Sanctuary!

I could call it: HOLY HAIR!

And, just to be sure to maximize profits, I could sell SHORT HAIR WIGS to men who look like rejects from the 1960's.

Hmm............may have to ponder this a wee bit

 

[atwhatcost]

This is where you make a grave error in your understanding about sinful man. Adam's sin is inherit in man from conception and Jesus had to come and crucify it through death to give sinful man a scapegoat for sin. I love the fact that we have a scapegoat for sin and when we sin we reckon that sin on the body of Christ crucified and not imputed to me. Was not God in Christ reconciling the world unto himself by not imputing their trespasses and sins unto them? We are not saved until we believe that I our heart.

Something I just learned this year. There were two goats. One was the scapegoat and the other was the sacrificial goat. Once a year, (on what is now called Yom Kipper), they laid their hands on the one to vow they're giving up those sins. The other one was slaughtered for their sins. Jesus was both.

I thought that was amazing, so just wanted to share it. (Not saying you didn't know, but took me 43 years to figure that out. lol)

 

[SeaBass]

What if it's you that has been deceived? What if you have followed the religion of man? What if Jesus says...sorry seabass, your works were there own reward and you spent to much time in religion and not enough in relationship?

First, Jesus would not say this for it contradicts the what the bible says in Heb 5:9.
Secondly, if I am doctrinally wrong then I and that false doctrine will be rooted up.
But it is not possible for all the groups to contradict each other and yet all have the truth of God's word, the contradictions will be rooted up too.