Expounding on the Feasts of the Lord

[faroukfarouk]

I think it's wonderful to look and see how the Old Testament feasts point forward to the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Interestingly in Acts, Paul went to the temple to try to present an offering (certainly NOT a supposedly atoning sacrifice, already fulfilled at the Cross).

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

ok, well it's so much better when you see for yourself, you look too closely sometimes and you need to go take a bath or whatever you do to relax and wait for it, that's my parable.

Gematria for people who don't know is also known as divine geometry, it is one of the few things about Kabbalah that have their roots before the Babylonian exile. It is the start of the ideas behind their language. As with all things it was corrupted when people learned what they could do with it, but the root is not bad, it all depends how it's used. If you are just looking at the correlation of numbers in scripture, I'm all for the learning of what they represented lyrically as opposed to geometrically. It can also be used in sorcery.


Anyway, you are obviously intelligent, and well versed, but you can't tell me you believe that the 15th of the month is the Sabbath just because that number means rest. So I'll go back and read it again, but I experienced the feasts, and I've seen other people that don't even know they're doing it, so convincing me that Passover isn't happening on the day that follows after the fall feasts is a difficult proposition.

Oh the 1-9 thing, forget about the what the Hebrew numbers mean, forget about how Passover corresponds to Sukkot. Instead lets go with the numbers 1-7, think of looking at the whole picture, but it wont fit on one screen, it's like a panorama. Even if you zoom in and out, you still need more than one picture to see the whole thing. If you pan in all the way, you have the days of the week, if you pan out you have feasts but not successive ones, because that wouldn't be panning out, it would just be substituting them, (think about Jesus being born on Yom Teru'ah but not bringing the millennial reign that same fall like Jews wanted), if you zoom out further you have more intricacies, like how theres the Sabbath, then a Feast of Sabbaths, then a Sabbath of Feasts....hmmm, I'm not good at describing things. I think we can be mistaken about what point in things we are at in existence, especially when we try to use the covenant relationships, without asking specific things about those covenant relationships, are they a progression or does it just happen that God makes contracts with all of us, but he also makes contracts with entire peoples, or just with himself. I am guilty of the same thinking, so just so you know, I'm not trying to say I'm better, just that it takes one to know one. My little thing is that the millennial reign corresponds to the 7th day (week, month, year) and to the feast of Tabernacles. I could be totally off, but one thing I do know, is that 99% of people celebrating Passover will be doing it on a weekday.

 

[faroukfarouk]

ok, well it's so much better when you see for yourself, you look too closely sometimes and you need to go take a bath or whatever you do to relax and wait for it, that's my parable.

Gematria for people who don't know is also known as divine geometry, it is one of the few things about Kabbalah that have their roots before the Babylonian exile. It is the start of the ideas behind their language. As with all things it was corrupted when people learned what they could do with it, but the root is not bad, it all depends how it's used. If you are just looking at the correlation of numbers in scripture, I'm all for the learning of what they represented lyrically as opposed to geometrically. It can also be used in sorcery.


Anyway, you are obviously intelligent, and well versed, but you can't tell me you believe that the 15th of the month is the Sabbath just because that number means rest. So I'll go back and read it again, but I experienced the feasts, and I've seen other people that don't even know they're doing it, so convincing me that Passover isn't happening on the day that follows after the fall feasts is a difficult proposition.

Oh the 1-9 thing, forget about the what the Hebrew numbers mean, forget about how Passover corresponds to Sukkot. Instead lets go with the numbers 1-7, think of looking at the whole picture, but it wont fit on one screen, it's like a panorama. Even if you zoom in and out, you still need more than one picture to see the whole thing. If you pan in all the way, you have the days of the week, if you pan out you have feasts but not successive ones, because that wouldn't be panning out, it would just be substituting them, (think about Jesus being born on Yom Teru'ah but not bringing the millennial reign that same fall like Jews wanted), if you zoom out further you have more intricacies, like how theres the Sabbath, then a Feast of Sabbaths, then a Sabbath of Feasts....hmmm, I'm not good at describing things. I think we can be mistaken about what point in things we are at in existence, especially when we try to use the covenant relationships, without asking specific things about those covenant relationships, are they a progression or does it just happen that God makes contracts with all of us, but he also makes contracts with entire peoples, or just with himself. I am guilty of the same thinking, so just so you know, I'm not trying to say I'm better, just that it takes one to know one. My little thing is that the millennial reign corresponds to the 7th day (week, month, year) and to the feast of Tabernacles. I could be totally off, but one thing I do know, is that 99% of people celebrating Passover will be doing it on a weekday.

It's interesting that the French literary critic Jacques Derrida was influenced by Medieval Kabbalism, in his theories about deconstruction of texts of literature. While he excelled in puns and interesting linguistic devices, I don't really feel that a Kabbalisic approach to the meaning of texts actually helps bring out their meaning, in terms of unlocking the significance words in context (a method of interpretation known as historical grammatical hermeneutics).

I think the Christian can actually and objectively point to the Old Testament (Messianic passages, Feasts of Jehovah, etc.) and truly say that pointing forward to the Lord Jesus and His finished work and titles and offices, is what those passages really do refer to and mean.

It's a question of unlocking the meaning that is there, rather than reading meaning into the passages in question.

 

[just-us-2]

Anyway, you are obviously intelligent, and well versed, but you can't tell me you believe that the 15th of the month is the Sabbath just because that number means rest. So I'll go back and read it again, but I experienced the feasts, and I've seen other people that don't even know they're doing it, so convincing me that Passover isn't happening on the day that follows after the fall feasts is a difficult proposition.

Just-me didn't say Passover was in the fall - it is as he correctly has said, in the spring. Unless I am overlooking something, it isn't said anywhere in this thread that the Passover is after fall feasts - if so please correct me.

 

[just-me]

Anyway, you are obviously intelligent, and well versed, but you can't tell me you believe that the 15th of the month is the Sabbath just because that number means rest. So I'll go back and read it again, but I experienced the feasts, and I've seen other people that don't even know they're doing it, so convincing me that Passover isn't happening on the day that follows after the fall feasts is a difficult proposition.

Your last statement above is somewhat confusing. The first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread is the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] Of Nisan/Abib not Tishri/Ethanim. The first day of the Feast of Tabernacles is the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] of Tishri/Ethanim not Nisan/Abib. The 10[SUP]th[/SUP] of Nisan leads up to the crucifixion which is the 14th, and that starts the sequence of events for the Exodus, and for the rest of the year. This is springtime. It appears there might be a misunderstanding on either my part or yours.

Oh the 1-9 thing, forget about the what the Hebrew numbers mean, forget about how Passover corresponds to Sukkot. Instead lets go with the numbers 1-7, think of looking at the whole picture, but it wont fit on one screen, it's like a panorama. Even if you zoom in and out, you still need more than one picture to see the whole thing. If you pan in all the way, you have the days of the week, if you pan out you have feasts but not successive ones, because that wouldn't be panning out, it would just be substituting them, (think about Jesus being born on Yom Teru'ah but not bringing the millennial reign that same fall like Jews wanted), if you zoom out further you have more intricacies, like how theres the Sabbath, then a Feast of Sabbaths, then a Sabbath of Feasts....hmmm, I'm not good at describing things. I think we can be mistaken about what point in things we are at in existence, especially when we try to use the covenant relationships, without asking specific things about those covenant relationships, are they a progression or does it just happen that God makes contracts with all of us, but he also makes contracts with entire peoples, or just with himself. I am guilty of the same thinking, so just so you know, I'm not trying to say I'm better, just that it takes one to know one. My little thing is that the millennial reign corresponds to the 7th day (week, month, year) and to the feast of Tabernacles. I could be totally off, but one thing I do know, is that 99% of people celebrating Passover will be doing it on a weekday.

From the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] day of Trumpets in Tishri/Ethanim there are 7 lambs offered beginning with trumpets and also Atonement. Whether it was through 14 days, or just the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] and the 10[SUP]th[/SUP], the Bible doesn't say. I assume 7 lambs were offered throughout the first 14 days of the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] month. I covered that in posts #302 through #304.
Numbers 29:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And ye shall offer a burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the LORD; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year without blemish:
Numbers 29:7-8 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall offer a burnt offering unto the LORD for a sweet savour; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year; they shall be unto you without blemish:

I think the 1-7 thing is wrapped up in the Feast of Tabernacles. That feast is very interesting, in that it is a time for comprehending all God has ever done and recorded in what He preserved then and now. If one sees the relevance to the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] day (being the 15[SUP]th[/SUP]) and the 13 bullocks, and counting the progression of events in that 7 days, it’s astounding. I covered that in summary in posts #317 through #323, and the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] day though the 21[SUP]st[/SUP] day in posts #325 through #331.

Leviticus 23:39-44 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
[SUP]43 [/SUP]That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

It is clear that you will disagree with the timing thing, but that shouldn’t apply in the Physical way. The main forte I wanted to address was the relevance, and comparisons between these three feasts, and these 2 months..

 

[just-me]

Food for thought. I was born on a Saturday 66 years ago. Since then I have celebrated my birthday literally every day of the week. If I was born on Wednesday, I would be celebrating my birthday every day of the week from that time no matter which day I was born. My life started once, but the celebration has happened 66 times since. In the end, it's always the same. Obviously there are weekly and yearly Sabbath days. The days are consistent during any given week, and annual Sabbaths will eventually fall on any given day of a week. Was a Sabbath, and is a Sabbath, are 2 different things. Just thought I'd mention that.

 

[Selihah]

The Passover has NEVER been a Sabbath. It is a Feast but not a Sabbath. The next day, the First Day of Unleavened Bread, is an annual Sabbath.

You are correct the passover has never been a sabbath, the passover is the actual lamb. You are however not correct in saying passover is a Feast, there is no such thing, as I stated already the passover is the lamb. The passover was eaten "between the two evenings" i.e. the first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread.

 

[just-me]

You are correct the passover has never been a sabbath, the passover is the actual lamb. You are however not correct in saying passover is a Feast, there is no such thing, as I stated already the passover is the lamb. The passover was eaten "between the two evenings" i.e. the first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread.

I like the way you put that. I reckon that I worded it different, in that the lamb was killed on the 14[SUP]th[/SUP] and God passed over on the 15[SUP]th[/SUP], seeing that the next day starts at sundown. You are correct from what I read in the Bible.

I do have a question that I think you might be able to answer.
Knowing that each month begins with 2 bullocks offered, and Trumpets, and Atonement both offer one bullock, was the bullock for trumpets offered every day for 9 days, and also every day for 5 days for Atonement, or was it just the first day of each?

I know it’s a long worded question, but it was spontaneous. I think I inadvertently made a mistake in that area, and classified it for each day with no Biblical backup. Thanks in advance for the sake of edification to others reading this.

 

[Selihah]

I like the way you put that. I reckon that I worded it different, in that the lamb was killed on the 14[SUP]th[/SUP] and God passed over on the 15[SUP]th[/SUP], seeing that the next day starts at sundown. You are correct from what I read in the Bible.

Just want to be clear that the lamb was not killed on the 14th, Leviticus 23:6 states the Feast of Unleavened Bread is "on the Fifteenth Day of this month (Aviv)". From this verse it appears that the passover sacrifice is to be brought at sunset at the end of the 14th and eaten on the night of the 15th. This is confirmed by Dueteronomy 16:4, which commands us regarding the Passover Sacrifice: "and there shall not remain of the meat that you slaughter at evening on the first day until the morning." It is clear then and confirmed that the lamb sacrifice is slaughtered and eaten "at evening on the first day" (the 15th).



getting late I'll finish later

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

You are correct the passover has never been a sabbath, the passover is the actual lamb. You are however not correct in saying passover is a Feast, there is no such thing, as I stated already the passover is the lamb. The passover was eaten "between the two evenings" i.e. the first day of the Feast of Unleavened bread.

Thank you for this, I was trying to explain it and not doing very well


I know perfectly well that what season it's in, I apologize about my previous post, sometimes I hit the touch pad while typing and get words in the wrong spot. I was basically saying that I've been having intense experiences related to the feasts, so I feel pretty sure I know like what day today is...otherwise than that, you pretty much said what I said back to me, so now I'm the confused one. I guess I don't see what's so phenomenal about bullocks? Thank you for admitting that you might make suppositions. We all do it. I just think like, either take nothing but the bible, or at least don't pick one thing from all the depth of ancient Hebrew culture, to influence your thoughts. I'm not saying it's bad to look at the meanings of numbers and letters in Hebrew, but why just that? It's true you have to be careful that what you think is Jewish isn't actually Babylonian, but it's worth it, to be able to learn from their many epic failures in a new light. LOL

I like the fact that the cycle of feasts tells the story of creation, and it's so intimately personal too, Jesus is our Lamb, it helps us orient ourselves in history. Maybe I'm the only one who needs that. LOL

 

[just-me]

Just want to be clear that the lamb was not killed on the 14th, Leviticus 23:6 states the Feast of Unleavened Bread is "on the Fifteenth Day of this month (Aviv)". From this verse it appears that the passover sacrifice is to be brought at sunset at the end of the 14th and eaten on the night of the 15th. This is confirmed by Dueteronomy 16:4, which commands us regarding the Passover Sacrifice: "and there shall not remain of the meat that you slaughter at evening on the first day until the morning." It is clear then and confirmed that the lamb sacrifice is slaughtered and eaten "at evening on the first day" (the 15th).

getting late I'll finish later

I appreciate your input. From your explanation I have difficulty reconciling these next scriptures. I do, however, have no problem with the Feast of Unleavened Bread beginning on the 15th day of the first month. I have always thought the the next day begins at twilight from the previous day and there is no night at the end of any day. Therefore I do believe that the lamb was consumed at the beginning of the 15th day while it was still dark, and when God passed over. That would make the first day of Unleavened bread to be the day that the Passover was eaten. I know the weather was cooler during that time of the year, but unless I'm reading what you wrote incorrectly, it sounds as like they left the meat of the lamb sit (cooked or uncooked) for at least 12 hours before they ate it, even though they were instructed to eat it in haste. From what you have written, is appears to me that the Passover was eaten on the 2nd day of Unleavened Bread?

Exodus 12:6-7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.

Deuteronomy 16:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.

Exodus 12:8-10
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.

Leviticus 23:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.

Exodus 12:11-12
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

Numbers 9:2-3 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

Numbers 9:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

This situation is like the one that I mentioned concerning the time of king Hezekiah when temple worship was restored. Provisions were made for these men to eat the Passover with unleavened bread in the 2nd month. See post #248

Numbers 9:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.

Deuteronomy 16:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the LORD thy God: for in the month of Abib the LORD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the LORD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the LORD shall choose to place his name there.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.

Numbers 33:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.

מחרת=morrow
מחרתם=you chose
ם=from

"On the morrow" appears to be when the sun rose. What do you think? I'm in the process of learning. GBU

 

[CRC]

Beautifully illustrated and explained. Thank you.

 

[Selihah]

Let me try again . According to Torah, when I look at Leviticus 23:5-6 and Dueteronomy 16:4 the lamb was to be brought at the early part of evening (Ayin-Resh-Bet) as the sun was going down at the end of the 14th, and slaughtered and eaten that same evening on the 15th of the First Month.



hope that made better sense

 

[just-me]

Let me try again . According to Torah, when I look at Leviticus 23:5-6 and Dueteronomy 16:4 the lamb was to be brought at the early part of evening (Ayin-Resh-Bet) as the sun was going down at the end of the 14th, and slaughtered and eaten that same evening on the 15th of the First Month.

hope that made better sense

That makes sense to me. Thanks. That's the way I see it according to scripture too. Thanks a again for the confirmation. Now to the offerings of Trumpets and Atonement, concerning the other question I asked.

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

I love it when you guys come to an agreement on things =)

 

[KittenofMelchisedek]

Trumpets is cool, it's more powerful than it seems. As far as everything I've read, it is one day, and the name of it is Yom Teru'ah, which is more literally translated as great shouting and noise. It begins a ten day period until the day of Atonement. People pray and fast the whole ten days (as they're called, every place has different traditions), but Yom Teru'ah is only one day, and Jewish people blow a horn called a Shofar. It's like the person running by yelling that the king and his army is passing through. People get their stuff out of the way LOL It's not a feast, but it is an appointed Day of the Lord.

On Yom Teruah last year, I was healed of a majorly gripping addiction to smoking cigarettes. After 15 years of smoking and so many times of trying to quit, God just took it away. I also had like a bunch of eureka moments, and I was convicted of a bunch of stuff. It wasn't like, the most pleasurable of days, but there was a lot of healing that happened for me during that ten days this past fall.

 

[Karraster]

Trumpets is cool, it's more powerful than it seems. As far as everything I've read, it is one day, and the name of it is Yom Teru'ah, which is more literally translated as great shouting and noise. It begins a ten day period until the day of Atonement. People pray and fast the whole ten days (as they're called, every place has different traditions), but Yom Teru'ah is only one day, and Jewish people blow a horn called a Shofar. It's like the person running by yelling that the king and his army is passing through. People get their stuff out of the way LOL It's not a feast, but it is an appointed Day of the Lord.

On Yom Teruah last year, I was healed of a majorly gripping addiction to smoking cigarettes. After 15 years of smoking and so many times of trying to quit, God just took it away. I also had like a bunch of eureka moments, and I was convicted of a bunch of stuff. It wasn't like, the most pleasurable of days, but there was a lot of healing that happened for me during that ten days this past fall.

That's the power of Almighty! Thanks for sharing that sister.
Atonement is a solemn thing, a time to reflect honestly about how we've lived our lives and acknowledge we fall short. The more I study the Feasts the more I am sad for not having grown up understanding what our Creator has laid out for us to do in order that we live fruitful lives. I must look forward though, using what I've learned.

I read Torah, it points to Messiah. I read Gospels, it points to Torah. One does not make sense without the other. For what hope is it we are to have if not Messiah who has washed our sins, and how must we follow Messiah if we know nothing of Torah? Together they are the whole message and love letter of Almighty, how He would redeem us!! His Son was the only lamb worthy to blot out sin, and now we can understand and believe He is the way truth and life and our Lord and Master, love Him enough that His law is written on our hearts.

Sometimes unlearning is harder than learning. Forgetting days are counted from sunset to sunset rather than midnight to midnight have got in my way, but I'll keep thinking on it until it is second nature, (I hope)

Thanks to all for some great posts.

 

[Keren]

If anyone is interested, let's talk about the Feasts of the Lord, both Spring and Fall. Whatever is relevant I'd love to know more about all aspects including the meaning of the original words. The way they were traditionally kept would add to understanding I think. I just feel there is so much we miss about the feasts, being both a foreshadow of Christ at first, and second coming, /QUOTE]
they are all fulfilled.

 

[damombomb]

Trumpets is cool, it's more powerful than it seems. As far as everything I've read, it is one day, and the name of it is Yom Teru'ah, which is more literally translated as great shouting and noise. It begins a ten day period until the day of Atonement. People pray and fast the whole ten days (as they're called, every place has different traditions), but Yom Teru'ah is only one day, and Jewish people blow a horn called a Shofar. It's like the person running by yelling that the king and his army is passing through. People get their stuff out of the way LOL It's not a feast, but it is an appointed Day of the Lord.

On Yom Teruah last year, I was healed of a majorly gripping addiction to smoking cigarettes. After 15 years of smoking and so many times of trying to quit, God just took it away. I also had like a bunch of eureka moments, and I was convicted of a bunch of stuff. It wasn't like, the most pleasurable of days, but there was a lot of healing that happened for me during that ten days this past fall.

This is nice, i love this

 

[faroukfarouk]

This is nice, i love this

Ms damonbomb: So did you manage to quit smoking, too? So did I.