False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[Journey_man]

Although you've quoted a Scripture, you apply it wrong. We are only crucified with Christ on our own cross, when we repent and mortify our own bodily trasngressions.

No one other than Jesus was crucifed on His cross. No one other than Jesus was resurrected from the dead three days later.




True. And the symbol is not truth, except we repent of all our transgressions, and take up our cross to follow Jesus.

No other person than Jesus Christ has risen from the dead with new resurrected body.

No one is yet part of the first resurrection of His church, which is the only time when the second death has no power over us. Until the end of this life, we are all judged by our works, whether for the good unto justification and life, or for the evil unto condemnation and shame.

You blatantly reject what the text clearly say and then superimpose your word over Gods Word. Why can't you just accept what Gods Word says?

The Bible uses symbolic language, and you say it's not truth. It may not be truth to you, but I don't believe or trust you because you contradict what Gods Word clearly says.

 

[rewriter]

2. False teaching in Scripture is at times referred to as harlotry, and leads God's people astray in breaking His commandments, who are also called adulterers and harlots. Such bad teaching is not from simple errors of Scripture, but are destructive teachings that defiles the temple and body of Christ.

Deu 11:16
Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; And then the LORD'S wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven,

1 Cor{3:10}
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon...

1 Cor{3:16}
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Mystery Babylon the Great Mother of all harlots, is the sum of all such false teachings, that lead God's people into breaking His commandments to our own destruction.

Mat 15:14
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Babylon the Great is called Mystery Babylon, because it's a mystery to us obedient believers in the Scriptures, as it certainly was to John, how some people naming Christ and claiming faithfulness to the Scriptures, can be so plainly wrong and even destructive in their bad teachings.

Rev 17:4
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:...and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

How can we ever possibly believe, that Christians murdering, committing adultery, and theiving, etc...can possibly be always justified by our faith only, that must be set apart from such evil works? How can we ever dare to teach such openly filthy and abominable religious hypocrisy? And in the name of Christ. And calling it Scripture of God...

Indeed, at times it's almost admirable just how blatantly and willingly some Christians can drape themselves colorful, pretty, and golden words, while drinking and fellowshipping with devils.

2 Cor{6:14}
For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial?

Paul therefore says that the mystery of iniquity is already at work among the churches of God. Which are at work with the false teachers warned against by Peter, who don't build up believers with faith to do good and not evil; But instead destroy good and righteous faith in Jesus Christ, with a evil prophecy of continuing to sin and trespass against Him.

I would ask if you would care to identify just what city or location was being referenced as "Babylon the great"? And do you really want to claim as a false prophet one whose prophesies in the name of the Lord fail to come to pass? That is a very troublesome claim in some cases as there exist some statements made in the form of prophesies in God's name which have failed to come to pass unless one resorts to promissory actions rather than historic fulfillment and thus lead to theological issues. I mean here., situations where one must claim that the second part of a "prophesy" has come to pass before the supposedly preceding parts. Difficult to justify and remain true to scripture when it is most clearly read as "'A' will occur, then 'B'" where everyone is satisfied that "B" occurred and fulfilled the "prophesy". One such occurs in Isaiah for example.

 

[ATG]

We sin every single day for the rest of our lives,

Good news for the evil doers, bad news to the righteous.

Believing and preaching sinning every day unto death, is not beleiving and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to do good and sin not.

Jhn 8:21
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that are not sinning unto death. There is sinning unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

We are not even called upon by our Lord to pray for unrepenting people, who are committed to sinning every day unto death. Especially if daily sinning is ministered to others to do the same.

2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of unrighteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

 

[ATG]

The Bible uses symbolic language, and you say it's not truth.

When the Bible is made symbolic rather than true in works, then the truth of Scripture is changed into a lie of men.

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

No other person was crucified with Jesus on His cross dying for our sins. No other person was resurrected with Jesus Christ on the third day to save us from our sins.

There is no other person than the Son, who has ascended on high with eternal salvation, and cannot be touched by death.

Only the saints doing good with the Lord, shall be resurrected unto life in His likeness. Until then, we all shall be judged by the works we do in our bodies in this life.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

[ATG]

I would ask if you would care to identify just what city or location was being referenced as "Babylon the great"?

Rev 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The great city Babylon will be Jersualem before our Lord's return.

And do you really want to claim as a false prophet one whose prophesies in the name of the Lord fail to come to pass?

There is no other kind of false prophet and false prophecy, than that which is falsely spoken in the name of the Lord.

Deu 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?


When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Same for false teachers that teach Scriptures falsely in the name of the Lord.

Difficult to justify and remain true to scripture when it is most clearly read as "'A' will occur, then 'B'" where everyone is satisfied that "B" occurred and fulfilled the "prophesy". One such occurs in Isaiah for example.

As i've said many times, I don't argue Scripture with people who don't believe Scripture as written, and so rewrite their own owrds for themselves.

However, I do enjoy responding to any accusations against Scriptural inerrancy. So, if there's a prophecy in Isaiah, that is accused of being false, I'd be glad to look at it.

 

[rewriter]

When the Bible is made symbolic rather than true in works, then the truth of Scripture is changed into a lie of men.

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

There is one problem here. The Greek for Romans 1:25 has two identical definite articles present. One before the word for "truth", as accurately translated here, and the other before the word for "lie", so the translation is in error and perverting the word of God. It is not the truth, a singular truth and a lie, some generic lie, possibly different for every person, but the specific truth and the very specific lie, the exact same lie for every person who is living, has ever lived and all who will live after us.

Now whether we choose to study to find out what that singular lie is or not will determine how well we understand the whole of scripture. If we study until we find one very uncomfortable lie that fits, we can correctly identify many other things, but if we fudge and find some lesser lie that does not make us squirm and admit that we are truly guilty of it even after officially accepting Jesus, and will likely continue believing until after we are physically dead. we will misunderstand much, if not all, scripture.

 

[rewriter]

Rev 17:18
And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The great city Babylon will be Jersualem before our Lord's return.


There is no other kind of false prophet and false prophecy, than that which is falsely spoken in the name of the Lord.

Deu 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?


When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Same for false teachers that teach Scriptures falsely in the name of the Lord.


As i've said many times, I don't argue Scripture with people who don't believe Scripture as written, and so rewrite their own owrds for themselves.

However, I do enjoy responding to any accusations against Scriptural inerrancy. So, if there's a prophecy in Isaiah, that is accused of being false, I'd be glad to look at it.

Well, I will give you an easy one first. Jonah is accepted as a prophet. in Jonah 3:2 he is given a message by God, and as he delivers it in Jonah 3:4, it is an absolute, no conditions for amending it, it will come to pass as the Lord decreed. Now did Jonah distort the words of God, or did he deliver the message he was told to. If he distorted, he is a false prophet. Now the message he delivered was "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown." However, after the Ninevites repented, God relented. The prophesy as presented was not fulfilled.

The second is a similar case. In Isaiah 45:1-3, Isaiah doe a great job of attributing Cyrus's propaganda to God, but a very poor job of what archeology indicates actually happened. Bronze gates were rare, but did appear in the city walls of Babylon, but they were not torn asunder, but were instead opened to Cyrus as the city surrendered without conflict, nor is there any indication of any earthquakes of other natural disaster knocking down mountains around the time of Cyrus. Nice figurative language, but not an accurate portrayal of what actually occurred.

And if you require me to really dig, there were numerous "prophesies" regarding the Messiah, not all of which could ever be kept as they often contradicted each other. The messiah would be of David's line, unless the Davidic covenant was broken which it appeared had happened, in which case he would be of a different royal line. Unless of course he was of a priestly line, specifically Aaron's, or maybe Mose's, no wait, of Melchizedek's, no wait, it had to be the Zadokite lineage. But wait again, there was not a single Messiah but two of them working together, one Royal and one priestly. Now which of these prophesies, all supposedly from God, were accurate and which were false, making the prophets who proclaimed them to be false prophets.

Do you see the problem?

 

[Journey_man]

Good news for the evil doers, bad news to the righteous.

Believing and preaching sinning every day unto death, is not beleiving and preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to do good and sin not.

Jhn 8:21
Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Jhn 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1Jo 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that are not sinning unto death. There is sinning unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

We are not even called upon by our Lord to pray for unrepenting people, who are committed to sinning every day unto death. Especially if daily sinning is ministered to others to do the same.

2Co 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of unrighteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

The Lord Jesus declares that you're a liar, in 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

A liar is a person who does not have the truth in them, you have proven yourself to be a liar by rejecting and contradicting what the Lord Jesus said about the matter.

Revelation 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Take heed, God has prepared the lake of fire for liars as well. If we repent and confess our sin (lies) the Lord is faithful to forgive us.

 

[Journey_man]

When the Bible is made symbolic rather than true in works, then the truth of Scripture is changed into a lie of men.

Rom 1:25
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

No other person was crucified with Jesus on His cross dying for our sins. No other person was resurrected with Jesus Christ on the third day to save us from our sins.

There is no other person than the Son, who has ascended on high with eternal salvation, and cannot be touched by death.

Only the saints doing good with the Lord, shall be resurrected unto life in His likeness. Until then, we all shall be judged by the works we do in our bodies in this life.

2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I suggested someone else was literally crucified with Christ, but I made no such claim.

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." This means the absolute end of the old self-justifying life, radical union with Christ, and a permanent shift from human merit to life fueled entirely by sovereign grace.

Christ acted as the legal representative (substitute) for the elect. When He died on the cross, God counted His people as dying with Him. Believers are joined to Christ by the Holy Spirit. His death is legally and spiritually credited as their death to sin's penalty.

 

[ATG]

I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I suggested someone else was literally crucified with Christ, but I made no such claim.

When He died on the cross, God counted His people as dying with Him.

God did not count anyone dying with Jesus on His cross, because only Jesus died on His cross.

Figurativeness wrongly applied to Scripture, rather than doing the truth, is the mystery of iniquity justifying itself by faith in symbols alone...

Nor does God count anyone crucifed with Christ, until we take up our own cross, and crucify our old man for Jesus' sake.

 

[Journey_man]

God did not count anyone dying with Jesus on His cross, because only Jesus died on His cross.

Figurativeness wrongly applied to Scripture, rather than doing the truth, is the mystery of iniquity justifying itself by faith in symbols alone...

Nor does God count anyone crucifed with Christ, until we take up our own cross, and crucify our old man for Jesus' sake.

The Bible doesn't teach or support the idea, that someone can take up his own cross and crucify the old man for Jesus sake. You just made that up.

The phrase "crucified with Christ" (such as in Galatians 2:20) describes the believer’s vital, legal, and spiritual Union with Christ. When Jesus died on the cross, God regarded His elect as being in Him representatively. This means His death counts as their death, breaking the penalty and dominion of sin and initiating a transformed life.

Christ acted as the legal substitute or "federal head" of His people. God imputed (credited) the sins of believers to Jesus, and conversely, when He was crucified, God viewed them as hanging on the cross in Him. The penalty demanded by the law was paid in full and once for all time.

Being crucified with Christ means dying to the "works of the law" as a means of earning righteousness. The law's right to condemn the believer was executed at Calvary, freeing them from a system of merit-based salvation. As taught in Romans 6:6, the "old self" was crucified with Jesus so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless. Sin no longer holds absolute mastery or ownership over the believer.

Co-crucifixion is never the final stop; it leads directly to rising with Christ. Paul’s paradox—"it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"—means the autonomous, rebellious ego has been dethroned. Christ now actively directs and sustains the believer through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Daily Christian living is maintained not by trying to re-crucify oneself through sheer willpower, but by looking outward in faith to the Son of God who gave Himself up for them. Obedience flows naturally as a fruit of grace, not as an obligation to win favor.

 

[ATG]

When He died on the cross, God counted His people as dying with Him.

God counted everyone that sinned against Christ, guilty of His death at the hand of sinful people. Especilly His people that ought to have recieved Him, rather than crucify Him.

Jhn 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

1Co 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

His death is legally and spiritually credited as their death to sin's penalty.

Jesus neither legally nor spiritually sinned.

The only penalty of death He ever paid for, was putting Himself in the hands of sinners, that unjustly condemned Him and illegally crucified Him.

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

 

[ATG]

The Bible doesn't teach or support the idea, that someone can take up his own cross and crucify the old man for Jesus sake. You just made that up.

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

The phrase "crucified with Christ" (such as in Galatians 2:20) describes the believer’s vital, legal, and spiritual Union with Christ.

If we have taken up our own cross and put off the old man for Jesus' sake, then we are in deed and truth the new man joined with Jesus Christ.

If we are transgressing the commandments of the Lord, then we remain the old man alive to sins and trespasses.

If we are transgressors naming Christ, then we are uncrucified with another Christ, not crucified with Jesus Christ.

2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Ti 3:2
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy…lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Daily Christian living is maintained not by trying to re-crucify oneself through sheer willpower, but by looking outward in faith to the Son of God who gave Himself up for them.

No repentance nor works we do through our own will alone, are pleasing to God.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

If we concieve our own lust to do evil, after knowing the Lord and His righteousness, we must repent and be crucified with Christ. If we repent not, then our old man living again is worse than before Christ:

2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Rev 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Being crucified with Christ means dying to the "works of the law" as a means of earning righteousness.

Being crucified with Christ is dying to ourselves, and our own dead works without Christ

Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Works of the law and our own righteousness without faith toward God, are dead to God and justify no man.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him:

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

The law's right to condemn the believer was executed at Calvary,

The law of God was not executed with Jesus Christ. The law of God was transgressed by executing Jesus Christ.

The OT and law of Moses ended at the death of the Messiah on a cross. The NT and law of Christ begins with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sinning under the OT was by transgression of the law of Moses. Sinning under the NT is now by transgression of the law of Christ.

And the heathen having not the law of God are likewise condemned for sinning against God:

Rom 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And if we do away with the law of God by our own faith alone, then we also are condemned without law, and our religion is vain.

Sin no longer holds absolute mastery or ownership over the believer.

2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Sin does not have power over them doing the righteousness of the law.

Sin has power over transgressors of the commandments of the Lord.

Co-crucifixion is never the final stop; it leads directly to rising with Christ. Paul’s paradox—"it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me"—means the autonomous, rebellious ego has been dethroned. Christ now actively directs and sustains the believer through the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Christ's righteousness now reign in them that do His righteousness.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Christ's righteousness condemns them that do unrighteousness against Him.

1Jo 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

 

[ATG]

When Jesus died on the cross, God regarded His elect as being in Him representatively.

When Jesus died on the cross, He was forsaken by all men, including His disicples, and left to hang alone on the cross.

Isa 53:34
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Mat 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Jhn 16:32
Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

Anyone representing themselves as having been with Him on His cross dying for sins, are in deep spiritual delusion.

Rev 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

God imputed (credited) the sins of believers to Jesus,

This is another traditional lie against God the Father, imputing our sins and guilt to His beloved Son Jesus Christ the righteous.

God is not unrighteous to impute sin to the innocent, nor does He impute righteousness to the guilty.

Job 4:7
Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

Exo 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Psa 94:21
They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.

God is not an unjust judge to impute the innocent with the guilt of another.

Deu 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The tradition that God smote His own Son, imputing Jesus with our sins, and making Him legally guilty in our stead, is therefore false. It's only sinful men that did those vile things to Jesus, not God the Father:

Isa 53:34
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

The Scripture declares that sinful men esteemd Jesus guilty and smitten of God, not God Himself.

The false accusers of the day believed that lie, and people today believe the same lie, in order to justify themselves, and be imputed righteous by His death.

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:

The Father did not kill His own dear Son, esteeming Him guilty for sins; But only wicked men crucified Him to a cross, esteeming Him legally worthy of death as a blasphemer.

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

No person that has sinned is ever justified by God at the cross of His Son, but are only guilty for condemning and executing Him contrary to the law.

And all men that sin against Christ today, are guilty of crucifying Him again to ourselves, if we repent not:

Heb 10:26
...seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[ATG]

Obedience flows naturally as a fruit of grace,

And disobedience flows as the fruit of evil.

1Sa 24:13
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Mat 15:18
But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man:

Mat 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

not as an obligation to win favor.

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If we are not doing our works to please God, then we are seeking to please men.

Jhn 5:44
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Matthew{23:5}
But all their works they do for to be seen of men:

Gal 1:10
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

If our works are not justified with God, our works are unjust iniquity.

Isa 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[ATG]

Well, I will give you an easy one first. Jonah is accepted as a prophet. in Jonah 3:2 he is given a message by God, and as he delivers it in Jonah 3:4, it is an absolute, no conditions for amending it, it will come to pass as the Lord decreed.

Jon 3:4
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

This is not prophecy but decree of execution by works.

Exo 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Jon 3:10
And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The Lord can repent of His own decree of execution, by repenting of His wrath. He first did so for His own people, and likewise did so equally for His enemies, that repent of their own evil doing. The Lord is not a respector of persons in His judgment of works, whether to execute or acquit.

Mercy is repenting of the Judge's decree against evil, by repentance of the evil doer.

Mat 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

There is where the merciless letter of the law, does not outweigh the mercy in the spirit of the law, and of the LORD God of the Bible.

The second is a similar case. In Isaiah 45:1-3, Isaiah doe a great job of attributing Cyrus's propaganda to God, but a very poor job of what archeology indicates actually happened. Bronze gates were rare, but did appear in the city walls of Babylon, but they were not torn asunder, but were instead opened to Cyrus as the city surrendered without conflict, nor is there any indication of any earthquakes of other natural disaster knocking down mountains around the time of Cyrus. Nice figurative language, but not an accurate portrayal of what actually occurred.

Nor were crooked places made straight. Babylon was famous for it's ordered foundation, construction, and grid-like streets.

If you're going to treat prophecy of words literally, then include all the words, to see if they are literal. Especially when you acknowledge the language is fine and figurative.

Not sure where the earthquakes and downed mountains are from in Is 45, but they wouldn't be a credible reading for treasures of darkness and hidden riches of secret places. A more credible reading would be referring to the treasuries of the inner temple and palace stronghold. As well as the secrets of written records and mystery writings.

And if you require me to really dig, there were numerous "prophesies" regarding the Messiah, not all of which could ever be kept as they often contradicted each other.

Love to see them all.

The messiah would be of David's line, unless the Davidic covenant was broken which it appeared had happened, in which case he would be of a different royal line. Unless of course he was of a priestly line, specifically Aaron's, or maybe Mose's, no wait, of Melchizedek's, no wait, it had to be the Zadokite lineage. But wait again, there was not a single Messiah but two of them working together, one Royal and one priestly. Now which of these prophesies, all supposedly from God, were accurate and which were false, making the prophets who proclaimed them to be false prophets.

Try putting it in specific bits for me. Thanks.

 

[Journey_man]

God counted everyone that sinned against Christ, guilty of His death at the hand of sinful people. Especilly His people that ought to have recieved Him, rather than crucify Him.

Jhn 1:11
He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

1Co 2:8
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Jesus neither legally nor spiritually sinned.

The only penalty of death He ever paid for, was putting Himself in the hands of sinners, that unjustly condemned Him and illegally crucified Him.

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

No, God did not count everyone that sinned against Christ guilty of His death. My sins are not counted against me, because the Lord Jesus took my sins upon Himself and and made them His own.

He became sin for my sake, and suffered in my place. His righteousness became my righteousness, and my sin became His sin. Can you see how amazing this exchange is, there is no better news than the gospel message.

His people are not the Jews, for there is no Jew or Gentile or man or woman in the Body of Christ. We're all member of One Body.

The Lord Jesus came for this purpose, the sinners who crucified Him did so because that's what God predestined them to do. The Lords crucifixion was no accident, it was a fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[Journey_man]

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rom 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;





If we have taken up our own cross and put off the old man for Jesus' sake, then we are in deed and truth the new man joined with Jesus Christ.

If we are transgressing the commandments of the Lord, then we remain the old man alive to sins and trespasses.

If we are transgressors naming Christ, then we are uncrucified with another Christ, not crucified with Jesus Christ.

2Co 4:3
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

2Ti 3:2
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy…lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.




No repentance nor works we do through our own will alone, are pleasing to God.

Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

If we concieve our own lust to do evil, after knowing the Lord and His righteousness, we must repent and be crucified with Christ. If we repent not, then our old man living again is worse than before Christ:

2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Rev 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.





Being crucified with Christ is dying to ourselves, and our own dead works without Christ

Heb 4:9
There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Co 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Works of the law and our own righteousness without faith toward God, are dead to God and justify no man.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him:

Rom 14:23
And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.




The law of God was not executed with Jesus Christ. The law of God was transgressed by executing Jesus Christ.

The OT and law of Moses ended at the death of the Messiah on a cross. The NT and law of Christ begins with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Jo 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sinning under the OT was by transgression of the law of Moses. Sinning under the NT is now by transgression of the law of Christ.

And the heathen having not the law of God are likewise condemned for sinning against God:

Rom 2:12
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And if we do away with the law of God by our own faith alone, then we also are condemned without law, and our religion is vain.




2 Peter{2:19}
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

Sin does not have power over them doing the righteousness of the law.

Sin has power over transgressors of the commandments of the Lord.


Rom 16:18
By good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Christ's righteousness now reign in them that do His righteousness.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Christ's righteousness condemns them that do unrighteousness against Him.

1Jo 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

I'm not sure why you listed all of the above verses, but none of them support your view about "taking up our cross and crucifying the old man for Jesus sake" . And none of them support your "saved by works" version of the gospel.

Nobody is saved by taking up their cross and crucifying the old man, only those who put their trust in Christ's finished work on His cross are saved. Your cross and your sacrifice have no power to save you.

Gods Word exposes your version of the gospel as being false, because Gods Word reveals that salvation is "by grace" and not by your works, our best works are as filthy rags in His sight.

 

[Journey_man]

When Jesus died on the cross, He was forsaken by all men, including His disicples, and left to hang alone on the cross.

Isa 53:34
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Mat 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Jhn 16:32
Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

Anyone representing themselves as having been with Him on His cross dying for sins, are in deep spiritual delusion.

Rev 2:24
But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:

This is another traditional lie against God the Father, imputing our sins and guilt to His beloved Son Jesus Christ the righteous.

God is not unrighteous to impute sin to the innocent, nor does He impute righteousness to the guilty.

Job 4:7
Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

Exo 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Psa 94:21
They gather themselves together against the soul of the righteous, and condemn the innocent blood.

God is not an unjust judge to impute the innocent with the guilt of another.

Deu 24:16
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The tradition that God smote His own Son, imputing Jesus with our sins, and making Him legally guilty in our stead, is therefore false. It's only sinful men that did those vile things to Jesus, not God the Father:

Isa 53:34
He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

The Scripture declares that sinful men esteemd Jesus guilty and smitten of God, not God Himself.

The false accusers of the day believed that lie, and people today believe the same lie, in order to justify themselves, and be imputed righteous by His death.

1Co 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:

The Father did not kill His own dear Son, esteeming Him guilty for sins; But only wicked men crucified Him to a cross, esteeming Him legally worthy of death as a blasphemer.

Mar 14:64
Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

No person that has sinned is ever justified by God at the cross of His Son, but are only guilty for condemning and executing Him contrary to the law.

And all men that sin against Christ today, are guilty of crucifying Him again to ourselves, if we repent not:

Heb 10:26
...seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Your "saved by works" version of the gospel is unbiblical. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, Christ did not become a sinner by nature, but God treated Him as if He were a sinner, laying the legal guilt and punishment of His people upon Him. By parallel, believers are treated as if they kept the law perfectly because Christ's righteousness is stamped on our record.

How can God justify the ungodly without compromising His own justice. Imputation explains how God remains "just and the justifier" (Romans 3:26)—sin is fully punished in the substitute, and perfection is fully credited to the believer.

If Christ only removed sin (passive), you are at spiritual "zero"—cleansed, but without a positive righteousness. You need His active obedience credited to you to stand righteous before a holy God. Justification is a legal declaration by God, not a moral upgrade inside of us. God officially credits our sin to Christ's account and credits Christ's perfect record to our account.

 

[ATG]

No, God did not count everyone that sinned against Christ guilty of His death.

By the law of shedding the innocent blood, all the land of the people are cursed as shedding the blood. Unless, the evil doer is executed by law.

Deu 19:10
That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

Num 35:33
So ye shall not pollute the land wherein ye are: for blood it defileth the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it. Defile not therefore the land which ye shall inhabit, wherein I dwell: for I the LORD dwell among the children of Israel.

Jesus Christ was the son of man, and so by law of the LORD all the land and people of the earth became defiled and guilty of His innocent shed blood.

And not only at the cross, but also now if we partake of the Lord's supper with transgession, then renew our guilt of His unjust execution on the cross:

1Co 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Heb 6:5
...seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.