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atwhatcost
Guest
Yippie! Got my cookies, but I can't eat Hello Kitty. lolSad so many threads that could have been good and used to God's glory end up slinging dirt and digging up stuff that does not add to the thread but makes it more of a free for all....Anyway to restore peace and good will Here everyone I brought cookies....
Have a cookie....
Maybe we can shake hands and get back to giving God glory.......
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atwhatcost
Guest
Good post. And you answered another question I've been wondering -- at what point to Calvinists and Pentecostals link? Log inspection. We're good at inspecting other's logs. (I think I've already proved I am.)Excellent point, and one which most posters on the thread have overlooked. There is a sudden flurry of attention in Christian literature and media concerning so-called "false conversions" based on supposed evidence of their falsity by the behavior of the converts. This bogus nonsense knows no doctrinal nor denominational boundaries, affecting hyper-Calvinist and Pentecostal alike.
A book by a newlywed couple three years ago titled "Falsified" is a prime indicator of the ridiculous measure those adhering to the concept go to prove the problem is "epidemic." They take a slice of a Christian's life -- what they can observe now, up close -- and make judgment based on that as to whether that Christian is actually saved or not. It ignores a myriad of warnings by Christ and His apostles about how we are to judge, and needlessly drives wedges between brothers and sisters in Christ.
No one, no matter how Christlike, looks like Christ 24/7/365. It is impossible. The best of saints undergoes trial and testing and comes up short. But that's what trials and testings are about -- showing the weaknesses we all have so that we will allow the Holy Spirit to mold and shape us into something useful.
If you take an hour, a day, or a whole year out of any Christian's life and try to judge their salvation by it, chances are you're going to find a lot of "unsaved people." But remember Christ's words from the Sermon on the Mount.
Matthew 7, NASB
1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
In reviewing the words on this thread, I'd say there's a lot of logs to go around. I carry a log remover for myself on my smart phone. It's an app of the NASB. I walk around dropping my logs everywhere.
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atwhatcost
Guest
IDK. Looks like it can be many more than two on this site. lol (And, yes, I'm counting me.)
Not surprised AT ALL with you jumping on him for that...... You knew somebody would bite on this:
This thread wasn't about your doctrine until you made it about your doctrine..... you've been on here long 'nuff to know better..... yet you just HAD to do it, didn't you? I'm beginning to wonder if it's really about your doctrine, or you looking for an opportunity to argue with those who don't agree with you. I'm not even gonna name your doctrine, 'cuz I believe the Op deserves her thread be treated better than that.
Hey Jim,
Yeah this may have come across wrong..the word Christian means Christ like and the bible makes it clear that there is one message of salvation not two...the message he teaches is false as salvation is eternal and not boiled down to a condensed salvation LITE doctrine which he teaches.....it is correct to say a man's standing as lost or saved is equal across the board....but to deny their are vessels of HONOR and some of DISHONOR in the house denies the fact that there are those who are more faithful and CHRIST LIKE (Christian) in the grand scheme of things........Some will hear well done thou good and faithful servant and some will make it by the skin of their teeth.....so my statement stands however upsetting and unsettling it may have been!
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atwhatcost
Guest
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atwhatcost
Guest
I asked a question and then when I was getting answers, life came along, so I couldn't get back for a day. I rather got a kick that it wasn't required that I was around. lolLynn, you are welcome to join us in the Speak Your Mind thread.
cookies for everyone there.
(ps--sorry if i mucked up your thread.)
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atwhatcost
Guest
Okay, took me some time, but I read most comments. I think something might be missing... not to my question, but to assumptions being made.
When I get passionate about stuff, my fingers fly across the keyboard before my mind engages completely. With that, I say stuff that I truly believe at that moment, only to think about it later and realize it wasn't the truth, or even what I believe. (Like, it was Luther who wanted James out, not Calvin. But that's a minor example.) Call me a liar, my back presses against the wall, and I may well go with heart, instead of head. Call me a liar, and even if I realize I wrong, I may well defend my position until I feel less threatened. Is this not true for most of us? Give me a gracious way to back up, and I will though. Isn't it more loving to "go to the brother," first, instead of make it a big deal?
At the very least, I'd prefer that approach, so give others the same benefit. (And yes, that approach has already not worked for me on here. Some folks are just always sure they're right, so defend the position even before they listen to another possibility. Oh well. Better that reaction than that reaction in public.)
Second, I make other odd mistakes. I just noticed I answered someone with an answer that, if I didn't know what I meant to say, would have puzzled even myself. It's a mental quirk. Even has a scientific name for it. (Aphasia.) Has anyone considered I'm not the only one with mental quirks? It's embarrassing, frustrating, and annoying -- and that's just me about me. I'm an open book. If something in my life connects to the topic, I will tell my experience. Most folks are far more cautious than I am. But, can't we assume I'm not the only person on this site with mental quirks?
And, on that note, James, I'm sorry I said what I said. I didn't realize everyone was ganging up on you before I did it myself. I would suggest something to you. I'm not checking you out to see how old you are or how long you've been a Christian, but I did see where you did some of your own backsliding a few years ago. One of the many, many disadvantages of backsliding is we lose ground. We lose ground spiritually, emotionally, physically, and intellectually. We're rusty. (That's the intellectually part.) God has to help us get back what we forgot during that time and then even correct some faulty thinking. (Let's face it, if we didn't have problems with faulty decisions, we'd be smart enough to NOT backslide.
)
So, it's been five years since you've been back. Consider this -- you could be wrong. A pastor said something that made me laugh, because it fits me so well. He said, "I am 100% sure that what I believe is 100% accurate. I am also 100% sure some of it is wrong."
You're preaching something that really does seem to require copy/paste theology. (Take the first part of a verse here and then attach it to another verse there.) Feel free to believe whatever it is you believe right now, but in like kind, keep studying to find out you're wrong. That's something we should all be doing, and I find it more effective if I give myself room to be wrong. Me being wrong isn't God being wrong. It's me. It's okay that I'm wrong, as long as I'm opened to God setting me straight.
Just some thoughts, because this got way too heated for no particular reason other than how we're treating each other. We're family. We chaff. We're suppose to be chaffing to get better, not chaffing because we're good at it.
When I get passionate about stuff, my fingers fly across the keyboard before my mind engages completely. With that, I say stuff that I truly believe at that moment, only to think about it later and realize it wasn't the truth, or even what I believe. (Like, it was Luther who wanted James out, not Calvin. But that's a minor example.) Call me a liar, my back presses against the wall, and I may well go with heart, instead of head. Call me a liar, and even if I realize I wrong, I may well defend my position until I feel less threatened. Is this not true for most of us? Give me a gracious way to back up, and I will though. Isn't it more loving to "go to the brother," first, instead of make it a big deal?
At the very least, I'd prefer that approach, so give others the same benefit. (And yes, that approach has already not worked for me on here. Some folks are just always sure they're right, so defend the position even before they listen to another possibility. Oh well. Better that reaction than that reaction in public.)
Second, I make other odd mistakes. I just noticed I answered someone with an answer that, if I didn't know what I meant to say, would have puzzled even myself. It's a mental quirk. Even has a scientific name for it. (Aphasia.) Has anyone considered I'm not the only one with mental quirks? It's embarrassing, frustrating, and annoying -- and that's just me about me. I'm an open book. If something in my life connects to the topic, I will tell my experience. Most folks are far more cautious than I am. But, can't we assume I'm not the only person on this site with mental quirks?
And, on that note, James, I'm sorry I said what I said. I didn't realize everyone was ganging up on you before I did it myself. I would suggest something to you. I'm not checking you out to see how old you are or how long you've been a Christian, but I did see where you did some of your own backsliding a few years ago. One of the many, many disadvantages of backsliding is we lose ground. We lose ground spiritually, emotionally, physically, and intellectually. We're rusty. (That's the intellectually part.) God has to help us get back what we forgot during that time and then even correct some faulty thinking. (Let's face it, if we didn't have problems with faulty decisions, we'd be smart enough to NOT backslide.
)So, it's been five years since you've been back. Consider this -- you could be wrong. A pastor said something that made me laugh, because it fits me so well. He said, "I am 100% sure that what I believe is 100% accurate. I am also 100% sure some of it is wrong."
You're preaching something that really does seem to require copy/paste theology. (Take the first part of a verse here and then attach it to another verse there.) Feel free to believe whatever it is you believe right now, but in like kind, keep studying to find out you're wrong. That's something we should all be doing, and I find it more effective if I give myself room to be wrong. Me being wrong isn't God being wrong. It's me. It's okay that I'm wrong, as long as I'm opened to God setting me straight.
Just some thoughts, because this got way too heated for no particular reason other than how we're treating each other. We're family. We chaff. We're suppose to be chaffing to get better, not chaffing because we're good at it.
Excellent point, and one which most posters on the thread have overlooked. There is a sudden flurry of attention in Christian literature and media concerning so-called "false conversions" based on supposed evidence of their falsity by the behavior of the converts. This bogus nonsense knows no doctrinal nor denominational boundaries, affecting hyper-Calvinist and Pentecostal alike.
A book by a newlywed couple three years ago titled "Falsified" is a prime indicator of the ridiculous measure those adhering to the concept go to prove the problem is "epidemic." They take a slice of a Christian's life -- what they can observe now, up close -- and make judgment based on that as to whether that Christian is actually saved or not. It ignores a myriad of warnings by Christ and His apostles about how we are to judge, and needlessly drives wedges between brothers and sisters in Christ.
No one, no matter how Christlike, looks like Christ 24/7/365. It is impossible. The best of saints undergoes trial and testing and comes up short. But that's what trials and testings are about -- showing the weaknesses we all have so that we will allow the Holy Spirit to mold and shape us into something useful.
If you take an hour, a day, or a whole year out of any Christian's life and try to judge their salvation by it, chances are you're going to find a lot of "unsaved people." But remember Christ's words from the Sermon on the Mount.
Matthew 7, NASB
1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye."
In reviewing the words on this thread, I'd say there's a lot of logs to go around. I carry a log remover for myself on my smart phone. It's an app of the NASB. I walk around dropping my logs everywhere.
A most excellent post, shame I couldn't rep it. Sometimes you need someone else to speak what you have on your heart because it comes out better.
If some had a glimpse of my life lately you'd think I was a false convert and fail to see what I'm learning
EG, and Desired,
I have much respect and fondness for both of you: but it pains me to watch you talking past each other!
EG, Desired is saying 'I can't find [sex addict] in my concordance'.
Desired, EG is saying 'It isn't in your concordance. It is an inference similar to the concept of trinity which is also not in your concordance'
The inference of trinity may or may not be easier to justify and that is worthy of discussion; but neither of you is really ignoring each other.
The barbed words on both sides do NOT promote understanding.
I hope I haven't overstepped myself!
I have much respect and fondness for both of you: but it pains me to watch you talking past each other!
EG, Desired is saying 'I can't find [sex addict] in my concordance'.
Desired, EG is saying 'It isn't in your concordance. It is an inference similar to the concept of trinity which is also not in your concordance'
The inference of trinity may or may not be easier to justify and that is worthy of discussion; but neither of you is really ignoring each other.
The barbed words on both sides do NOT promote understanding.
I hope I haven't overstepped myself!
Isn't that what I am saying?
Doesn't faith and salvation COME OUT God's gift of grace,and are the result of the gift of God's grace,but are not the gift itself but tied to God's gift of grace?I know what I am trying to say but it's not coming out to well. Let me try this again. Unless God grants the gift of grace,none of us would be saved. All of us are condemned under the law. The end result of God's gift of grace received by faith IS salvation. It's God's grace that is the CAUSE of salvation. Salvation CAN NOT occur UNLESS God grants His grace.
I think you are both saying basically the same thing . . . I believe the problem is using "the gift of God's grace" in relation to this verse:Isn't that what I am saying?
I know what I am trying to say but it's not coming out to well. Let me try this again. Unless God grants the gift of grace,none of us would be saved. All of us are condemned under the law. The end result of God's gift of grace received by faith IS salvation. It's God's grace that is the CAUSE of salvation. Salvation CAN NOT occur UNLESS God grants His grace.
For by grace [unmerited favor] we are saved through faith [faith in Jesus Christ]; it is the gift of God.
What is the gift of God? Is the gift "grace" or is it "salvation"? our salvation received by grace through faith
Excuse my butting in!!
P
psychomom
Guest
I think you are both saying basically the same thing . . . I believe the problem is using "the gift of God's grace" in relation to this verse:
For by grace [unmerited favor] we are saved through faith [faith in Jesus Christ]; it is the gift of God.
What is the gift of God? Is the gift "grace" or is it "salvation"? our salvation received by grace through faith
Excuse my butting in!!
Now that I thought it a bit more through very simply it's both. God's grace is a gift and so is salvation but they are tied together and one comes from the other.
There is objective christianity and there is subjective Christianity. Someone can give mental assent to Christ, but their heart is far from him, it is really sad. Some have been told, Just ask Jesus into your heart, they do it, then they are told you are saved.
Paul said this is how one is saved.
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that 1) ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: )2 in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...
Ephesians 1:11-13
Paul said this is how one is saved.
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that 1) ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: )2 in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise...
Ephesians 1:11-13
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We are 101% in agreement!Isn't that what I am saying?
I know what I am trying to say but it's not coming out to well. Let me try this again. Unless God grants the gift of grace,none of us would be saved. All of us are condemned under the law. The end result of God's gift of grace received by faith IS salvation. It's God's grace that is the CAUSE of salvation. Salvation CAN NOT occur UNLESS God grants His grace.
D
DesiredHaven
Guest
You never overstep with me MarcR
You are one of the most precious and least partial persons on this board in my opinion.
I have alot of respect for you even the way you even correct others (including here with myself)
I will take that from you anyday,
I only talked to EG once before (and actually somewhat agreeably then)
I will take the blame for being stupid enough to ask where something was in the scripture.
Because I already knew full well that he was full of it (and that it wasnt in scripture)
Its good that you said something though, alot of the men here could actually learn a little something from your attempts at seeking to be a peacemaker. Your mannerisms in doing so, and your way does not provoke, but actually felt very fatherly, and speaks well of you.
Now, that is something I have never experienced in Christ (thank you).
That was very warming actually.
God bless you MarcR, the Peace of Christ be with you