For those who believe in false conversions even when people return...

[DesiredHaven]

Yeah, you like the sound of your own typing alright.

That would be you Joshua you been wrangling with others over nothing on other threads too.

I yeild the last word (which I know you need) back to you.

 

[psychomom]

So again the question should be is Did David or Peter ever LOSE their faith? I have yet to find. Jesus NEVER says Peter would lose his faith. So was it their faith that CAUSED both Peter and David to repent?

ultimately, do you think it's the kindness and love and grace and mercy and power of God that caused it?

honestly asking.... the Lord Jesus prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail.
the same Lord Jesus prayed for us (Jn 17).

this is why i was was asking who is omnipotent. if faith is a gift one can receive only from God (and it is),
under whose power does it fall? who, ultimately maintains, guards and protects it and the ones to whom it is given?

...i have a lot of questions.
like, what is encompassed in 'every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights...'
and in Rom 8:39, does 'any other created thing' include me?

love you, Sarah.

 

[SarahM777]

No. John says if you do not love your brother you are in darkness (See 1 John 2). He also says that he that hates his brother is a murderer, and then he says we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them (See 1 John 3). Meaning, if a believer hates their brother, then there is no eternal life abiding within them. For he that does not love does not know God. For God is love. John's point is that if you do not love others, then how can you love God in whom you have not seen? (1 John 4:20). In other words, the two are tied together (i.e. Loving others and loving God).

And if the SUM of the LAW and the PROPHETS is the commands to love the Lord your God with ALL your heart,mind,soul and strength, and the second is to love your neighbor AS YOURSELF,then LOVE is the FULFILLMENT of the LAW. If ones does NOT love then one is NOT fulfilling the law. Love CAN NOT SIN because it FULFILLS the law. If it is not of LOVE then it CAN NOT fulfill the law.

 

[SarahM777]

ultimately, do you think it's the kindness and love and grace and mercy and power of God that caused it?

honestly asking.... the Lord Jesus prayed for Peter, that his faith would not fail.
the same Lord Jesus prayed for us (Jn 17).

this is why i was was asking who is omnipotent. if faith is a gift one can receive only from God (and it is),
under whose power does it fall? who, ultimately maintains, guards and protects it and the ones to whom it is given?

...i have a lot of questions.
like, what is encompassed in 'every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights...'
and in Rom 8:39, does 'any other created thing' include me?

love you, Sarah.

I love 1 John he really shows where the rubber hits the road so to speak

1 John 4

[SUP]7[/SUP]Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. [SUP]9 [/SUP]This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. [SUP]10[/SUP]This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. [SUP]12 [/SUP]No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. [SUP]15 [/SUP]If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. [SUP]16[/SUP]And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. [SUP]18 [/SUP]There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love because he first loved us. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

Love comes from God,Christ is in us,then we can love as the Father loved us,therefore we love BECAUSE GOD FIRST LOVED us. If we can somehow get this we HAVE the how to live it out.

 

[psychomom]

Love comes from God,Christ is in us,then we can love as the Father loved us,therefore we love BECAUSE GOD FIRST LOVED us. If we can somehow get this we HAVE the how to live it out.

i know. i can't, as if by 'magic', create love-- real love-- from my heart for another.
but i know the Guy who can.

perhaps the learning curve is steeper for some of us than for others?

this also makes me think of perfect love casts out fear...
we are loved perfectly by God, yet all fear doesn't cease upon regeneration.
again....learning curve?
we're all His work in progress.

 

[SarahM777]

this is why i was was asking who is omnipotent. if faith is a gift one can receive only from God (and it is),
under whose power does it fall? who, ultimately maintains, guards and protects it and the ones to whom it is given?

God alone is omnipotent. The heart of the next part is it FAITH that is the gift,or is it God's grace RECEIVED BY FAITH that is the gift?

Ephesians 2

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, [SUP]2 [/SUP]in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. [SUP]3 [/SUP]All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[SUP][a][/SUP] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,[SUP]5 [/SUP]made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, [SUP]7 [/SUP]in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. [SUP]8[/SUP]For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— [SUP]9 [/SUP]not by works, so that no one can boast. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Grace can ONLY be received by FAITH. No one can WORK for grace. Because grace is NOT based on MERIT. Grace CAN ONLY be received as a gift.

Yes God does do all the things to keep us close,all those promises are true BUT to WHOM are all those promises true? Those who are IN faith,NOT to those who are in UNBELIEF. So then why does God warn us about not going INTO unbelief?
Simply it comes down to we are DECLARED RIGHTEOUS by FAITH,if that faith IS NOT there then that person CAN NOT be declared righteous. I believe simply God wants us to continue respond to His love and REMAIN in Him.

 

[SarahM777]

i know. i can't, as if by 'magic', create love-- real love-- from my heart for another.
but i know the Guy who can.

perhaps the learning curve is steeper for some of us than for others?

this also makes me think of perfect love casts out fear...
we are loved perfectly by God, yet all fear doesn't cease upon regeneration.
again....learning curve?
we're all His work in progress.

All of us are STARTING from different points. Why would God ever NOT KNOW where each of children are along the path? He is preparing us to LIVE with Him. What after all is said and done will remain? It's agape love.

Faith hope and love now remain,and the GREATEST of these is LOVE. And not even faith and hope will last,but love will.
It's also the FIRST FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT.

Galatians 5

[SUP]13 [/SUP]You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[SUP][a][/SUP]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]15 [/SUP]If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[SUP][c][/SUP] you want. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; [SUP]20 [/SUP]idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions [SUP]21 [/SUP]and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [SUP]23 [/SUP]gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. [SUP]24 [/SUP]Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. [SUP]25 [/SUP]Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. [SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Love is a thread that runs from Genesis all the way to Revelation.

 

[MarcR]

God alone is omnipotent. The heart of the next part is it FAITH that is the gift,or is it God's grace RECEIVED BY FAITH that is the gift?

(snip)

Sarah,

Must it be one or the other or can it be both simultaneously? I have thought of faith and grace as like being like partners in a marriage. A marriage requires both a bride and a groom. Salvation is the Gift brought by God's grace through faith. Or at least that's how I see it!

 

[phil112]

........................Please do not converse with me anymore. It is obvious you like to argue.

Takes two people to argue.

 

[royalscot]

wow you people focused on one thing, and not the jist of the conversation.

lets just all jump on Jasons bandwagon and not hang out with sinners, not bring the word of God to the world. and lets just all be nice and cosey in our churches, and hide from the world so we do not sin (which is a lie) I lived that world and I know it happens.

Jesus was called a bastard child. he was convicted of hanging out with sinners, and I guarantee they tried to use him doing that (just like people do today) to say he was one of them.

it was for that reason he could not be the son of God, because the son of God would not do that. It EXCUSED THEIR BLINDNESS.

just adding
why the pharisee and teacher of lawetc , hated or saw problems in jesus christs actions and teachings.
28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or uncleanActs 10

 

[atwhatcost]

A believer (who was once saved) can backslide into sin (and be in an unsaved state) to then being renewed back to the faith again (to a saved state again). Not only does the Prodigal Son teach this, but James 5:19-21 teaches this, as well.

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the father said that his son was dead and was alive again two times. This is obviously speaking in spiritual terms. For when did Jesus not speak in spiritual terms when he was preaching?

​So you think the father did disown him? (I'm not judging that, I'm asking. I've never thought of it in those terms before.)

 

[atwhatcost]

Sorry.
Im still trying to wrap my mind around this whole, get and lose the Holy Spirit a few thousands times in our life?

Would it be too much to ask for you to send me a copy of the Bible you read and teach from?
Obviously the God you teach...teases us with the HS? Am I wrong to believe its only once?



I just wanna be right with the Lord.

​His concept is new to me, but I don't see him bringing up the Holy Spirit in what he said. As for which Bible? Do you think the verses he gave aren't in yours? That was Calvin's idea to pull James out of the Bible. It didn't work. It's still there.

 

[atwhatcost]

were called to love our enemies, and a man's/woman's foes will be they of his/her own household... Oh indeed.. they rely on their 'man made righteousness' to save them, carnal interpretation of the Word of God, its Traditions, to 'save oneself'.. I was Found and GRasped out of that Darkness, not only that but the darkness posing as light which uses Behavior medication , to mold and control a person into the 'correct' christ like mold, which they induced upon me in 1996... they speak of people being in 'heaven'. who were never regenerated from on High, speak of all being saved, God wouldnt be un just like that , putting somebody in gehenna fire, thats not God'. they say.. but you see what happens when you pull God down to man's level and tell Him how to act? mmm ultimate rebellion, they sacrifice Truth for 'love, unity , a false peace which holds its foundation in a 'dna' gospel, genes/chromosomes gospel, thats false.. very thankful Today He PULLED ME OUT OF THAT and showed me the True Way.. I would of never known that.. unless HE FOUND ME AND CHANGED ME.. only God could of done that.. because my family's foundation is STEEPED heavily into witchcraft (pharmakus) behavior meds to control and mold .... and the do it in 'jesus's name'.. which is error and will lead to perdition, most of those within my family bounds, relatives etc, most of those who were 'agreeing' to the pharmaceutical medication to 'fix' my Jesus's problem.. have passed away either very quickly tragically or slowly in much pain and torment.... they tried to 'defile' the Temple of the Holy Ghost which is the body flesh/bone by corrupting it with pharmakus, behavior meds to make me conform to their 'gospel'.. this a foreshadowing of what is to come during Daniels 70th week.. as the Harlot uses the Pharmaceutical industry to mold and image and make submissive those who 'dont fall into alignment with their 'christ like 'image.. but a false one. oh indeed!

If it weren't for medication, both hubby and I would have been dead by now. God saves me. Medication (thanks to God giving scientists the know-how to think of it and then make it) saved our bodies. I'm not against drugs. Without them my triglycerides would have killed me, hubby's hepatitis would have killed him, and my real pain levels would have made me kill myself.

 

[atwhatcost]

Romans 4:11 says the sign of circumcision is a seal of righteousness of the faith. Romans 2:25 says if you be a breaker of the law, your circumcison is made uncircumcision. This was obviously speaking in spiritual terms because one cannot undo physical circumcision back then. Today believers in the New Testament (or New Covenant) are under the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2). For we are commanded to love God and to love all others. For he that does not love does not know God (1 John 4:8).

(And, I'm still not judging you, but trying to figure out more of what you believe.)

So, let me put this into practical terms, and maybe you can show me more of what I don't understand.

So, I start my day without sinning easily, since, well, I'm still asleep. And then I wake up and sin starts. First, I'm angry because I have to wake up, (I'm not a morning person), so I take it out on hubby. Why is HE using the bathroom when I need it? What's wrong with him? (That is not loving, therefore it is sin. Sin to God for not appreciating what he's given me -- a new day, a morning, a bathroom, when that's a luxury, not a need, and a wonderful hubby. Then I'm angry with hubby when all he really did was wake up a minute before me.)

Then I come down stairs and get all I need to start my day. I'm left with two choices -- play games on my computer or study the Word. I go with games.

And then later, when I am studying the Word, my mind wanders to this or that or anything but what I'm supposed to be learning.

Sin, sin, sin.

When I sleep, am I God's kid, but then when I wake up and think sinful thoughts, I'm not, but then when I finally get to his word, I am again, but then when my mind wanders, I'm not? Because, that's what I'm hearing by what you're saying, so, I really hope I'm hearing wrong. (And, I often do.)

 

[atwhatcost]

The deception is great no doubt. Funny picture by the way. Looks like they may have forgot to warm the water for that poor child. LOL

They warm the water now? Brilliant! (Memories of a screaming baby brother in my arms when he was being baptized.)

 

[atwhatcost]

Can you explain how a person, who was condemned by the law. and saved from that condemnation. could again be condemned by the law. Since no one, saved or not saved, can meet the requirement of the law (perfection).

A sinner, falling back to be a sinner , or a person saved from the condemnation of the law, yet is not really saved at all, makes no sense to us logical people.

The son still had his fathers blood in him, You can not break that bond, a son is always a son through blood. even people in Jesus day understood this.

We were adopted. paid for by the blood of Christ, that blood does not just stop running through us, that is perfect blood.

Can I tell you how? No. Doesn't make sense to me either, but I've seen it. When hubby and I were newlyweds, a friend of ours preached a great sermon from a Bible study he did. It was about how God is always in control, even when it doesn't feel like it. He preached better than our pastor. To the point, simple and clear, and straight from God's own heart. We became good friends while he sang in a band that also did prison ministries and evangelical ministries. All the band members could tell about God wherever they were. (Hubby was their song engineer, and I was part roadie/part groupie. lol) We spent many a night talking about the Bible together. He married had a couple of kids, moved away, had a couple more kids, and we'd write back and forth. He was part of a ministry when he moved too, and his wife ran a crisis pregnancy center to help women and girls with unexpected pregnancies get everything they needed to prepare for the baby's birth. 20 years later, they returned to the area. And then they joined the Catholic Church. We asked Why. He said, "Because it's easier to go along with a church who already seems to have all the answers, then continuing to try and figure it out on my own."

He's been preaching the Catholic Church ever since.

He was one of the most christian Christians I've ever known, but he didn't persevere.

You're right. It makes no logical sense. That's not the same as it happens anyway.

 

[atwhatcost]

the sinners would have been the prostitutes. How many prostitute friends did jesus have?

The idea, is like the idea of the legalistic church, If you hang out with them, you must participate in their sin, or may fall into temptation. so we must separate ourselves from them.

No. We need to be like Christ and go out to them.

I might be pushing with the sex addict thing, since your right it does not come out and say that. But I am sure they did, all his prostitute friends (he even stood up for one when he said let he who has no sin cast the first stone)

Jesus had no prostitute friends. By the time they became friends, they stopped being prostitutes. lol (He batted 1.000 when it came to saving those his Father wanted saved. )

 

[atwhatcost]

I have Jason on ignore, so I cant read what he is saying, so I missed that myself.

Peace

Don't worry. I fixed that for you when I quoted him before asking him a question. lol (Oops!)

 

[Elin]

How do you love apostates? Lots of those today. Whhooa. Nellie! You love them from a distance... And after more than 3 rebukes .. You reject them. God the Father knows His Own. You leave them and from their they will continue to be Hardened as Pharaoh was hardened , He able to keep them unto their day of visitation and destruction!

How did Jesus show love to the Pharisees who sought to kill him?

 

[atwhatcost]

inheritance is usually given, when someone is dead. this inheritance was given, when the father was still alive to the son. the son was naive and with money and without experience of the outside world., this outside world then taught him, different lessons.(not always good lessons) but being naive, how would he, have learned the lessons, with out experience.
when his mind was set to wanting to explore the out side world. (some lessons are learned via experience, or trial and err mode, in your own life, ie( it dose not matter who tells you,) you end up learning by a mistake. because you did not know or understand what was said to you, until a later date. etc

what inheritance is give to alive christians , are we free to make mistakes and still be loved by the father. etc
are you free to experience mistake and still be loved by the father.

the father will always be there even when you hit rock bottom . etc

I'm going to have to disagree with this. My experience is different. I absolutely, positively understood Mom really meant I wasn't allowed to go to Bell Lake without an adult with me. She feared I'd fall in and drown. (Couldn't swim yet.) And I completely understood what I was doing when I disobeyed. I was going to Bell Lake with or without her permission. (My logic was, "If I fall in, I'l stand up and walk out. it's not that deep near the shore and I can't accidentally fall into the middle.")

In like kind, I was saved at 16 and got into drugs anyway. I purposely did lots of drugs once I went to college. It wasn't like I thought God wouldn't notice. (Mom rarely caught me, but this was different. God knew every time and then some.) I remember telling him something like, "Thanks, but I'm taking a break for a while." I wanted to do drugs because school taught me what that would be like. It seemed like a fun thing to do. It wasn't like I didn't know the consequences. By the time I started one friend was three suits short of a full deck from doing acid nonstop. Within the first year of me doing it, another friend was dead in a car crash from a DUI. I wasn't naive. I was stupid and stubborn. And, yes, I did end up with my own tragedy, but stupid is as stupid does.

We sin because we choose to sin. God didn't get it wrong in John 3:16-21.