Free will verses permissive will

[Jordon]

Well good day folks, hope your have a lovely weekend.

Well today I thought I would mention, that God does indeed Guide his children, and that really is the only answer I have really, for people who see God controlling people against there will, especially those people who have this thought God is not a puppet master and I'm not his puppet, such thoughts and comments come from satan.

As seen in this scripture


Hebrews 2:14

New International Version



14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—

The power of death in the naturally wicked heart is held by satan, untill God can guide such a person, to break free.
I wonder does anyone see God's permissive will here.

I hope so because really the battle of using God's permissive will against satans free will that lives in the sin nature of people with a naturally wicked heart is really what Hebrews 2:24 is all about.

 

[Jordon]

Good day folks .

A clear example of God's permissive will working in people would be this scripture
Matthew 7:21:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven..


What does this mean not everyone ?

Well for me this means unfortunately Gods permissive will in people was rejected by free will born out of a sin nature in each and every single person in the whole world.

This verse clearly demonstrates the battle of wills that happens in each and every single living person in existence, As it's clear God tells a person in a personal relationship to follow him, and we see Gods unrest when people choosing by there own free will to follow something or someone else., God does not like idols.

The battle of wills that takes place in a person can be a very long old battle, so much so the fathers will being complete in a person before they surrender there life, was as much as 33 years for Jesus the early man,

And even at the lords last moments in the flesh of Jesus was suffering that much the flesh of Jesus did what all flesh does it cried out in anguish and distress.

For Jesus as an example, for how long it took for the fathers will to be complete in him, before he surrendered his life to the father, really is speaking about the time every other person surrenders there own will of there earthly body to the father., and for a lot of people it takes longer than 33 years to fully surrender your own will to the all the fathers ways.

This would be the moment when Grace takes over in the body, its when the things that really use to anger you or distress you no longer have any effect on you, such as sin to.

Its where your also, anything of a sin nature you yourself,.can no longer be a part of.

But that's only the start of the new battle of wills.

 

[SomeDisciple]

Unless I bring every other reason sin is desiring to have me into equation, I must first look at what causes a good person to choose evil by his own merit, without any outside influence,

I can only come to the conclusion it must be temptation and flesh has a will of its own, which I can only describe as it lives by a code, one that is governed by the law of nature. Which is survive at any cost.

"Survive at any cost", I'd say that's a reasonable way to describe it; but this was initially not a "sin nature", because in the Garden and even now in a lot of ways- survival is dependent on God's provision rather than some alternative. The 'law of nature' isn't an inherently bad thing; but it becomes bad when not subordinate to God. Without any outside influence a "good person" if we are talking about Christians, generally will not choose evil.

 

[Jordon]

Hi folks.

Today I'm told that a pricked conscience is no evidence of enabling grace, ?

Well ok people have there opinion I guess.

So What pricks the conscience,

The Prick is a sign of penitence and new life for one instance after being delivered a message, which can be cited in scripture.


Then elsewhere we see Paul being told by the lord, why do you persuade me Paul, or Saul as we was know then, then the lord said it's hard for you kick against the goads, which is identified as Paul kicking against his prick, as he was on his way to destroy the truth, he was kicking against his prick along the way, ie not listening to the lord.

Goads, translates to an instrument used by farmers, to drive there ox on to farm the field, the ox would often kick against its goad, but eventually the goad would ensure the ox got the Job done.

So in Paul's instance eventually the lord got through to Paul with the goad (the prick to the conscience) he had delivered to Paul. But along the way he kicked against his prick.

Eventually Paul came to repentance and a new life was born.

So really can anyone tell me how a prick delivered to a persons conscience is not enabling grace for a naturally wicked heart ?

 

[Dino246]

Hi folks.

Today I'm told that a pricked conscience is no evidence of enabling grace, ?
…
The Prick is a sign of penitence and new life for one instance after being delivered a message, which can be cited in scripture.

“Penitence” is a Catholic concept and has no value in quashing the desires of the flesh. It does nothing to restore the broken relationship between man and God, or between persons.

Repentance, in contrast, does bring us back into right relationship with God, and together with forgiveness, fixes things between people.

 

[Jordon]

“Penitence” is a Catholic concept and has no value in quashing the desires of the flesh. It does nothing to restore the broken relationship between man and God, or between persons.

Repentance, in contrast, does bring us back into right relationship with God, and together with forgiveness, fixes things between people.

as far as I'm concerned penitence is the feeling of wrong doing, why would you want to apply that to a Catholic only thing ?

Repentance is act of confessing, they both go hand in hand, . Your ignorance is truly outstanding.

 

[Jordon]

"Survive at any cost", I'd say that's a reasonable way to describe it; but this was initially not a "sin nature", because in the Garden and even now in a lot of ways- survival is dependent on God's provision rather than some alternative. The 'law of nature' isn't an inherently bad thing; but it becomes bad when not subordinate to God. Without any outside influence a "good person" if we are talking about Christians, generally will not choose evil.

I believe innocence can not be lost without a sin entering a persons nature,

So it's without question Adam and did not have a sin nature before they commited the first sin.

Further to my belief and always sharing my faith, which not many people do here, all they do is repeat scripture, Adam and eve could not have had any will to do the wrong thing either as if they had, they would not have had innocence which was lost , they would of only have had a will in there nature to to the right thing, which was lost after the sin, and the reason why mans nature died a death

 

[Dino246]

as far as I'm concerned penitence is the feeling of wrong doing, why would you want to apply that to a Catholic only thing ?

Repentance is act of confessing, they both go hand in hand, . Your ignorance is truly outstanding.

Perhaps you should employ a dictionary. Confession is distinct from repentance. Your insult is inappropriate.

 

[Jordon]

Perhaps you should employ a dictionary. Confession is distinct from repentance. Your insult is inappropriate.

yep perhaps you should stop changing the subject to suit you petty arguments

 

[Dino246]

yep perhaps you should stop changing the subject to suit you petty arguments

Hebrews 2:1a.

 

[Jordon]

Penitence is the feeling of wrong doing, after a conscience is pricked.

When a person is in a state of penitence, it very likely there going to be given repentance by God. a person can not just repent without going through penitence first

Repentance is given By God knowing the state of penitence in a person which is known by the prick delivered to a persons conscience by the grace of God . if however free will born out of a sin nature wants to reject this by calling it a Catholic only thing, so be it but I'm not interested.


Well hy again folks.

I thought I would persist more with exodus for the naturally wicked heart, which clearly demonstrates God's permissive will at war against free will born out of a sin nature, as really exodus really is all about God's fear being put into the naturally wicked heart.


Exodus
He said, “If you listen carefully to the Lord your God and do what is right in his eyes, if you pay attention to his commands and keep all his decrees, I will not bring on you any of the diseases I brought on the Egyptians, for I am the Lord, who heals you.”

So here we see God speaking directly to the naturally wicked heart, saying that things of a spiritual matter are either done by his will, or your out in land of wilderness.

Which clearly demonstrates his permissive will being delivered to people

 

[Dino246]

Penitence is the feeling of wrong doing, after a conscience is pricked.

When a person is in a state of penitence, it very likely there going to be given repentance by God. a person can not just repent without going through penitence first

That does not follow. Many people experience sorrow or regret but come nowhere near true repentance because they have no relationship with God and don't care enough to fix the human relationship. Feelings are secondary (at best). What matters is acknowledgement of wrongdoing.

Repentance is given By God knowing the state of penitence in a person which is known by the prick delivered to a persons conscience by the grace of God .

That also does not follow, and is not based on Scripture.

if however free will born out of a sin nature wants to reject this by calling it a Catholic only thing, so be it but I'm not interested.

Wow... that was a great leap of assumption. It was also completely without basis.

 

[Jordon]

That does not follow. Many people experience sorrow or regret but come nowhere near true repentance because they have no relationship with God and don't care enough to fix the human relationship. Feelings are secondary (at best). What matters is acknowledgement of wrongdoing.


That also does not follow, and is not based on Scripture.


Wow... that was a great leap of assumption. It was also completely without basis.

it's your bias not mine,

penitence is well understood right across England, and I've never heard it said it's a Catholic only thing until now, its must be another one of those pathetic excuses to admit your wrong, always seems to be the case with religious nut jobs, they always put labels on things, a bit like you sir.


And still your other ignorances are shining high.

You've had 6 days of showing you how permissive will works and still you don't acknowledge it.

Anyway fire away with your next derailing attempt. I'll look forward to your stupidity

 

[Dino246]

it's your bias not mine,

penitence is well understood right across England, and I've never heard it said it's a Catholic only thing until now, its must be another one of those pathetic excuses to admit your wrong, always seems to be the case with religious nut jobs, they always put labels on things, a bit like you sir.


And still your other ignorances are shining high.

You've had 6 days of showing you how permissive will works and still you don't acknowledge it.

Anyway fire away with your next derailing attempt. I'll look forward to your stupidity

Obviously you aren’t interested in respectful discussion.

 

[Jordon]

Obviously you aren’t interested in respectful discussion.

You can't even acknowledge what as clearly been put in front of you over six days, how do you expect me to acknowledge that you have any respect for this discussion or me?

You quite clearly don't, so respectfully, no it's impossible to have a respectful discussion with the height of your ignorance.

 

[Dino246]

You can't even acknowledge what as clearly been put in front of you over six days, how do you expect me to acknowledge that you have any respect for this discussion or me?

You quite clearly don't, so respectfully, no it's impossible to have a respectful discussion with the height of your ignorance.

Why must I comply with your demands? I made no agreement to your terms; you simply stated them and expected that I go along. That's not respect. I asked you to explain what you see. You haven't done so. Instead you have steamrolled ahead with your game and now you're complaining that I have not played along.

When you're ready to discuss Scripture, let me know. As long as you continue with the schoolyard bully antics, I have more important things to do.

 

[Jordon]

Why must I comply with your demands? I made no agreement to your terms; you simply stated them and expected that I go along. That's not respect. I asked you to explain what you see. You haven't done so. Instead you have steamrolled ahead with your game and now you're complaining that I have not played along.

When you're ready to discuss Scripture, let me know. As long as you continue with the schoolyard bully antics, I have more important things to do.

haven't made any demands, that would be another assumption on your part,

 

[Dino246]

haven't made any demands, that would be another assumption on your part,

You stated your plan, and then complained when I didn't respond. How is that different from a demand?

As I have said, I find some of your writing difficult to understand. I have requested that you tell me what you see in the Scripture verses you post, so I can (hopefully) get a better idea of how you're thinking.

You're welcome to avoid doing so, but I don't think you're going to get too many people here to attempt prolonged communication with you if you don't explain what you mean. I was willing to try. Now I'm less willing.

The ball is in your court. I'm fine if it stays there.

 

[Jordon]

You stated your plan, and then complained when I didn't respond. How is that different from a demand?

As I have said, I find some of your writing difficult to understand. I have requested that you tell me what you see in the Scripture verses you post, so I can (hopefully) get a better idea of how you're thinking.

You're welcome to avoid doing so, but I don't think you're going to get too many people here to attempt prolonged communication with you if you don't explain what you mean. I was willing to try. Now I'm less willing.

The ball is in your court. I'm fine if it stays there.

I stated a nice plan not just for you but for everyone,

You seem so intent in having me seen as demanding ?
Demanding really you need to look in the mirror pal.

Everyday on this thread I've been posting a welcoming post with the ability to answer for yourself?

Everyday posting my full explanation of how I see God's permissive will, which you asked for ?

And now you call my explanations demanding ?
then you say I'm not discussing scripture ?

Really, then you come out with your ott presumption of penitence

What your doing is called derailing the truth.

 

[Dino246]

I stated a nice plan not just for you but for everyone,

You seem so intent in having me seen as demanding ?
Demanding really you need to look in the mirror pal.

Everyday on this thread I've been posting a welcoming post with the ability to answer for yourself?

Everyday posting my full explanation of how I see God's permissive will, which you asked for ?

And now you call my explanations demanding ?
then you say I'm not discussing scripture ?

Really, then you come out with your ott presumption of penitence

What your doing is called derailing the truth.

Whatever.