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posthuman said:
like, what do you do when you come to something like this:

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
(John 10:26)

​
?​
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i hear a lot of people say more or less that "some people are not of His sheep because they do not believe" - and that may have truth to it - but what Jesus literally says . . .

it's challenging. it's hard. it's a sword.
 
Grace777x70 said:
Perhaps the real issue is that there are not many that agree with the premise of the OP.
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HYPER GRACE: A CRITICAL REVIEW – PART 4 – HYPER GRACE & UNIVERSALISM

Does the hyper grace gospel hold certain beliefs which lead to universalism?
Yes. According to Paul Ellis the hyper grace message is not universalism in disguise because universalism states that all will be saved, but hyper grace is about everyone being forgiven and not saved. Paul Ellis’ asserts that all are forgiven of their sins even without receiving Christ into their lives as their Saviour and Lord. And they were forgiven when Jesus died at the cross. This claim will be reviewed in this blog post.
In Acts 2:38, Peter’s reply to the Jews who wanted to know what they ought to do after hearing the Gospel message:
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
So it is clear that Jesus offers forgiveness for everyone for every sin at the cross (i.e. through penal substitution for atonement of sins) but we ought to receive it now and it is not an event of the past. As far as the dichotomy that Paul Ellis is trying to create between salvation and forgiveness it is just futile and unnecessary. When a person receives Jesus into his life he is both saved and forgiven. As we read in Ephesians 1:7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.
In Colossians 1:13, 14 we read
13 For He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son He loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
From these verses we infer that it is only in Christ that we have redemption and forgiveness of sins, which is contrary to Paul Ellis’ teaching that all were forgiven of their sins at the cross.
So we have seen that we have good grounds to reject the barrier which Paul Ellis had kept for calling the hyper grace message as universalism in disguise.

Again, a difference of one point, & that point being a small one.

https://thinkingtheologetics.wordpr...tical-review-part-4-hyper-grace-universalism/

 
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posthuman said:
like, what do you do when you come to something like this:

But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
(John 10:26)

​
?​

i can't make it say "you don't believe because you freely choose not to" -- it's not what it says.

i'm not trying to "make" Jesus say one thing or another - you know that, bro - i never heard of Calvin or Arminius before i started reading the arguments here on this website - and i keep thinking how strange it is that so many of us feel very strongly that they made a conscious choice to believe from the very onset of faith arising in their hearts. not that we haven't "chosen" somehow to reject doubts, but that belief itself originated with our own decision-making. it's strange because we don't really talk about other "facts" this way -- we don't say, "i choose to believe the sky is blue" or "i choose not to believe that today is saturday" or "i choose to believe 2 + 2 = 4, while the other fellow is free to choose to believe 2 + 2 = a scoop of apricot ice cream, and what 2 + 2 turns out to be for either of us depends on what we each decided" that's not how we talk about ordinary truth at all. 2 + 2 is 4, and some people get the answer wrong, and if they've been given every reasonable tutelage and opportunity to answer that correctly, but they still don't get it, we start talking about there being something physically wrong with their brains. as though they have a nature that for whatever reason cannot comprehend math.

see any difference there?

but Jesus literally told unbelieving Pharisees that they literally could not believe because of their nature. not because it was wholly up to them and they had chosen not to - because they were unable to make any such choice. isn't that what the message is to believe? that we cannot reach up to God, so we must believe that He has reached down to us? don't we confess that we need to be fundamentally changed, and that He alone is able to save? it seems to me that if we are ever able to hear that, it is because He has first opened our ears.


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As I said, I cannot read the Bible as Calvinisticly deciding the fate of all mankind before they are even born.
 
HYPER GRACE: A CRITICAL REVIEW – PART 4 – HYPER GRACE & UNIVERSALISM (continued)

But what about the case which Paul Ellis’ is trying to make in his book with all these verses he quotes? We shall discuss about that now.
First he quotes John 1:29 to say that the whole world is forgiven, which is blatantly false as we shall see. He reasons in the following way.

  1. To take away sin is to forgive.
  2. Jesus takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).
  3. Therefore the whole world is forgiven.
Now this is fallacious reasoning. What would logically follow from the first two premises is that Jesus forgives the sins of the world, which proves that forgiveness is not a ‘once for all’ event in the past.
 
HYPER GRACE: A CRITICAL REVIEW – PART 4 – HYPER GRACE & UNIVERSALISM (continued)

Secondly he quotes Hebrews 9:26 to make the same wrong conclusion.
He reasons as follows

  1. Jesus has done away with sin (Hebrews 9:26).
  2. To do away with sin is to forgive.
  3. Therefore God has forgiven everyone in the world.
But the problem here is that he has got his first premise wrong. He has wrongly interpreted Hebrews 9:26 to infer that Jesus forgave the sins of the whole world. Here is Hebrews 9:26
26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
The context of the passage clearly speaks about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross which would take away the sins of world. So it is the sacrifice for sins which happened once for all and not forgiveness of sins. So here’s how we have to understand about the forgiveness which we receive from Jesus.

  1. Jesus’ sacrifice has atoned for our sins.
  2. Forgiveness is possible only when our sins are atoned.
  3. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant for the forgiveness of sins. (Hebrews 9:15)
  4. Therefore we can receive forgiveness of sins through Jesus because of His sacrifice.

https://thinkingtheologetics.wordpr...tical-review-part-4-hyper-grace-universalism/
 
Willie-T said:
As I said, I cannot read the Bible as Calvinisticly deciding the fate of all mankind before they are even born.
Click to expand...

i don't believe you just skip verses like all those i put in the preceding posts. or Romans 9, where Paul explains how God chose one twin over another before they were born, expressly so that His purpose of election would stand.

so how do you understand them? interject human sovereign choice like an unwritten rule? or just wonder?
it's not like i don't wonder -- the future is a haze, and the present all *seems* like i choose a path to take in it, but the past all looks like i've been guided patiently and delicately towards His image. and that's equally amazing, puzzling, frightening and comforting.

can i thank Him for giving me faith? for causing me to believe? for creating in me a heart that could receive the gospel?
or is that the one thing i have that wasn't given to me, but i gave it to myself?
 
HYPER GRACE: A CRITICAL REVIEW – PART 4 – HYPER GRACE & UNIVERSALISM (continued)

​Thirdly he quotes 1 John 2:22 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
And reasons in the following way,

  1. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
  2. Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross.
  3. Therefore the sins of the whole world are forgiven.
Now again the reasoning here is fallacious the logical conclusion which would follow from the first two premises is that “therefore Jesus has atoned for the sins of the whole world”.
Paul Ellis goes on to say that Jesus preached conditional forgiveness before going to the cross and then switched to grace. This is as an erroneous claim, because God does not change like man (Malachi 3:6, Numbers 23:19, James 1:17), He is the same yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8). The God of the Old Testament is the God of the New Testament as well. God’s grace saved people in the Old Testament and now saves people in the New Testament. Please refer my introductory part for more references on this topic. The hyper grace gospel is a deceptive teaching which is built on false premises and fallacious reasoning. The proponents of this false teaching twist scriptures to suit their ends, which is to serve their own lusts rather than to live for God.
 
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God has already reconciled us to Himself - now we are to believe and receive that reconciliation. Now we persuade people to be reconciled to this truth themselves and believe in the good new of Christ and all that He has done for us because of His great love and grace.

That is the true gospel message. Everyone who believes in Christ receives the forgiveness of sins that is already in Christ. This may go against our religious beliefs as taught in some our church teachings - but truth has always been against religion.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

And exactly what is the true gospel message?

Here Peter shows us exactly what it is. This is a word-for-word- account of the true gospel being preached.

Acts 10:43 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

Here is Paul with his word-for-word gospel message.

Acts 13:38-39 (NASB)
[SUP]38 [/SUP] "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

[SUP]39 [/SUP] and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

This is a vast difference between all is saved - universalism and that there is a "universal atonement" which people need to believe and thus receive for themselves what our Lord has already done for us.

This is the true gospel message and it is glorious and we don't need to water it down for fear that people will not understand it. Just because religion doesn't understand the truth of Christ's work on the cross - does that mean we should water it down now? Of course not!

Preach Christ and His grace and these will bring the transformation of the Holy Spirit within us to reflect His true nature in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to know that ' "It is finished". Repent and believe the gospel.

Religion will always be against the true gospel of the grace of Christ - especially works-based salvationists who are the very one denying the work of Christ.
 
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BenFTW said:
Mods are being gracious, I guess. :cool:
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There is no doubt as to the "purpose" of this OP and it is against what CC has said NOT to be doing.

This thread has been reported as it is against what they have said in CC to be doing and they will attend to it in the manner that they choose...All is well..:)
 
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Grace777x70 said:

There is no doubt as to the "purpose" of this OP and it is against what CC has said NOT to be doing.

This thread has been reported as it is against what they have said in CC to be doing and they will attend to it in the manner that they choose...All is well..:)
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Nooooo..... I haven't argued about anything.

But there's been plenty coming in the thread trying to stir up trouble. They hate it. But that's THEIR problem, not mine. I've been posting info, not arguments.:)
 
posthuman said:

i don't believe you just skip verses like all those i put in the preceding posts. or Romans 9, where Paul explains how God chose one twin over another before they were born, expressly so that His purpose of election would stand.

so how do you understand them? interject human sovereign choice like an unwritten rule? or just wonder?
it's not like i don't wonder -- the future is a haze, and the present all *seems* like i choose a path to take in it, but the past all looks like i've been guided patiently and delicately towards His image. and that's equally amazing, puzzling, frightening and comforting.

can i thank Him for giving me faith? for causing me to believe? for creating in me a heart that could receive the gospel?
or is that the one thing i have that wasn't given to me, but i gave it to myself?
Click to expand...
What do you do with the wealth of verses that go along the same lines of: "Choose you this day whom you will follow..." ?

It literally staggers me that no Calvinist EVER says they weren't among those chosen.
 
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But what about the case which Paul Ellis’ is trying to make in his book with all these verses he quotes? We shall discuss about that now.
First he quotes John 1:29 to say that the whole world is forgiven, which is blatantly false as we shall see. He reasons in the following way.


  1. To take away sin is to forgive.
  2. Jesus takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29).
  3. Therefore the whole world is forgiven.

Now this is fallacious reasoning. What would logically follow from the first two premises is that Jesus forgives the sins of the world, which proves that forgiveness is not a ‘once for all’ event in the past.
Click to expand...

Who is Paul Ellis?


Would it be easier to just say you believe in limited atonement instead of trying to fight what you think is 'hyper' grace?

Or do you not understand that is what you are arguing for yet?
 
Grandpa said:
Who is Paul Ellis?


Would it be easier to just say you believe in limited atonement instead of trying to fight what you think is 'hyper' grace?

Or do you not understand that is what you are arguing for yet?
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Paul Ellis is who G777 does about 70% of his quotes from. http://ecapetoreality.org

Oh, BTW, I'm getting tired of the older members ACTING like they don't know about this theology, when I've found several posting back in January talking openly about it.:rolleyes:
 
Depleted said:
Then Free Will trumps God's hand? i.e. Man's "Free Will" trumps God's will? He wants to, but he can't. We're too strong.
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Free Will is fine but it will not get you into the here-after unless you take on Jesus Christ as your savior...This club is very exclusive.

By that I mean it is Free to be choosen but Exclusive.
 
Depleted said:
Happy Christmas to you too.

And, no. I don't think bad theology stops God either. But I wasted quite a bit of time with God and bad theology, so now I struggle with how to dump the hooey I learned.

Lots of people leave God because of bad teaching. Were they God's in the first place? Unknown until the end, but I'm not good at sitting back while I see people falling for bad theology.
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I like d the 'Hooey' part.... have not heard that one in a While!

I agree with you that there are a lot of people leaving the church in favor of doctrines that agree with their lifestyles. As Jesus told us; the path is narrow for salvation and the alternative has very wide gates.


There are one or two like you, that I have to take my hat off to because they teach to others in spite of all the apostasy that is wide spread in this forum. It is hard to keep going in the face of such opposition. It is easier to simply give up and let them have it to themselves.
 
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