God's Elect: This Ends Any Debate
- Thread starter DavyP
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine of men, also linked with the Hyper-Grace movement, and with man's false pre-tribulational rapture escape doctrine, is designed to deceive. Those men who teach such things are not staying with the actual Bible Scriptures, but are preparing their congregations to be deceived especially at the end of this world during the coming "great tribulation".
Those men who come up with such ideas are more interested in finding ways to keep and build their congregations rather than reveal the Truth which God's Word warns us about with the end time events. Telling you that you are going to 'escape' the coming "great tribulation" altogether is one of their biggest lies to deceive you.
The end times for Christ's Church will be like the time of Israel's deceptions in Isaiah 30, where the people told God's prophets, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: ..." (Isaiah 30:10). Many brethren will leave a Church that is preaching God's Word straight from The Bible full strength, because they cannot handle God's Truth, but instead want "smooth things" preached in their ears instead.
This is why the Christian seminaries often tell their trained preachers to get a believer back on the 'milk' of The Word if they ask a bunch of deeper Bible questions, the petitioner realizing there's more in God's written Word than those Churches are preaching.
2 Tim 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV
1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV
2 Tim 3:1-7
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
KJV
Those men who come up with such ideas are more interested in finding ways to keep and build their congregations rather than reveal the Truth which God's Word warns us about with the end time events. Telling you that you are going to 'escape' the coming "great tribulation" altogether is one of their biggest lies to deceive you.
The end times for Christ's Church will be like the time of Israel's deceptions in Isaiah 30, where the people told God's prophets, "Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits: ..." (Isaiah 30:10). Many brethren will leave a Church that is preaching God's Word straight from The Bible full strength, because they cannot handle God's Truth, but instead want "smooth things" preached in their ears instead.
This is why the Christian seminaries often tell their trained preachers to get a believer back on the 'milk' of The Word if they ask a bunch of deeper Bible questions, the petitioner realizing there's more in God's written Word than those Churches are preaching.
2 Tim 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
KJV
1 Tim 4:1-2
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
KJV
2 Tim 3:1-7
3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
KJV
-
1
- Show all
What did Jesus say? Many are called, but few are chosen.
To be 'called' means one must work out their own salvation in Christ, i.e., remain in the Faith and walk by The Spirit. Only in that condition do we garner remaining in Christ and being saved.
But for those "chosen", those He already owns, like He showed in the John 17 Chapter, which NO ONE here as even faintly mentioned, showing they aren't really interested in what God's Word teaches about this, but instead would rather hear "smooth things" preached by the deceived in their ears.
Brethren, consider what it means when some preacher pushes to you that once you are saved in Jesus Christ that you never ever again have need for repentance of future sins, even though Jesus Himself gave us how to pray, asking forgiveness of our sins, per Luke 11. Those men who teach that all your future sins are forgiven are serving the devil, because Apostle Paul was clear that our first belief on Christ for the remission of sins was for PAST sins up to that point...
Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV
How many brethren didn't even know that above Scripture by Apostle Paul even existed?
1 John 1 is where we learn what to do after we catch ourselves in future sin. We are to repent to Lord Jesus about it. Fake churches won't even hold Communion with Christ anymore because of the devil's false 'once saved, always saved' Hyper-Grace traditions of men.
To be 'called' means one must work out their own salvation in Christ, i.e., remain in the Faith and walk by The Spirit. Only in that condition do we garner remaining in Christ and being saved.
But for those "chosen", those He already owns, like He showed in the John 17 Chapter, which NO ONE here as even faintly mentioned, showing they aren't really interested in what God's Word teaches about this, but instead would rather hear "smooth things" preached by the deceived in their ears.
Brethren, consider what it means when some preacher pushes to you that once you are saved in Jesus Christ that you never ever again have need for repentance of future sins, even though Jesus Himself gave us how to pray, asking forgiveness of our sins, per Luke 11. Those men who teach that all your future sins are forgiven are serving the devil, because Apostle Paul was clear that our first belief on Christ for the remission of sins was for PAST sins up to that point...
Rom 3:24-25
24 Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV
How many brethren didn't even know that above Scripture by Apostle Paul even existed?
1 John 1 is where we learn what to do after we catch ourselves in future sin. We are to repent to Lord Jesus about it. Fake churches won't even hold Communion with Christ anymore because of the devil's false 'once saved, always saved' Hyper-Grace traditions of men.
-
1
- Show all
Working out one's salvation is not maintaining one's salvation. Read the next verse. We are to work out what God is working in us. The fact that God is the One working means the person is saved. Our response to what He is doing is what is in view. These verses aren't dealing with eternal security or lack of it.
-
3
- Show all
I can say with certainty you do not understand God and his word or his salvation.The passage you used is that in the last days many churches will fall. And i think we see it today, the very church I was born again in and gre up in is no longer there, it fell away.
but that does not mean people lost salvation. God does not save people. Then take that salvation back. And he does nto save people who really do not have faith.
people reject God after they supposedly came to him because they never trusted him to begin with. And thus ever experienced Gods salvation.
No one who experienced his salvation would later totally reject him.. I am sorry you do not understand this, Then again, You claim one grou of people are stuck with jesus,, and would never leave him yourself.. so you are a walking contradiction.
You want to try to come at me, bring it on.
But don;t expect me to just take it..
but that does not mean people lost salvation. God does not save people. Then take that salvation back. And he does nto save people who really do not have faith.
people reject God after they supposedly came to him because they never trusted him to begin with. And thus ever experienced Gods salvation.
No one who experienced his salvation would later totally reject him.. I am sorry you do not understand this, Then again, You claim one grou of people are stuck with jesus,, and would never leave him yourself.. so you are a walking contradiction.
You want to try to come at me, bring it on.
But don;t expect me to just take it..
-
2
- Show all
"Ends all debate"? You are joking, of course. Either someone is born again or they are not. God's initial judgement is simple: are you alive or dead? If you are alive, then you will not be found in hell, which is the abode of the dead.
There are two salvations. The first is the initial, born again experience. Then there is the "salvation of the soul". Some call this (erroneously) progressive sanctification. Some, even though born again, do not permit God to change them much through their Christian lives. Others are utterly transformed because they seek to be changed. Some have a comfortable life because they are content with themselves as they are. Others suffer much because they endure the trials that lead to the salvation of their soul.
The question is, where will Christians appear in God's kingdom? Some will have no part in the Kingdom of God. They were spectators in this life and they will be spectators in the next. Others suffer the loss of self, persecution, failure, defeat, financial woes, health problems etc. These kinds of trials refine our faith and cause us to depend on Jesus ever more - and on self less and less.
References: 1 Peter 1:9, James 1:21, 1 Corinthians 5:1-8
Note that the sinner in the Corinthian church was still a brother. He was to be excommunicated, but to learn a lesson. When he repented, he was welcomed back. He was not going to hell.
There are two salvations. The first is the initial, born again experience. Then there is the "salvation of the soul". Some call this (erroneously) progressive sanctification. Some, even though born again, do not permit God to change them much through their Christian lives. Others are utterly transformed because they seek to be changed. Some have a comfortable life because they are content with themselves as they are. Others suffer much because they endure the trials that lead to the salvation of their soul.
The question is, where will Christians appear in God's kingdom? Some will have no part in the Kingdom of God. They were spectators in this life and they will be spectators in the next. Others suffer the loss of self, persecution, failure, defeat, financial woes, health problems etc. These kinds of trials refine our faith and cause us to depend on Jesus ever more - and on self less and less.
References: 1 Peter 1:9, James 1:21, 1 Corinthians 5:1-8
Note that the sinner in the Corinthian church was still a brother. He was to be excommunicated, but to learn a lesson. When he repented, he was welcomed back. He was not going to hell.
That certainly is a wild and untrue accusation.
That's the popular notion that it's already happening today, but the falling away (apostasia) of 2 Thessalonians 2 that Apostle Paul spoke of is for when the coming false-Messiah shows up to work great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world into thinking he is God.
Back to man's pop 'once saved, always saved' doctrine again I see. That's part of the Hyper-Grace movement from men. Per Galatians 5, what did Apostle Paul teach? He taught that those who walk by their flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God...
Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV
What now then, are we to just call Apostle Paul in the above a liar? didn't Paul mean what he said above that those who walk in the flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God?
What did Lord Jesus declare He will say to those believers on Him that work iniquity? Did your Hyper-Grace Church ever teach you about that?...
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
Therefore, it's obviously not me that does not understand what God's Word actually says in His Word about Christ's Salvation.
That's the popular notion that it's already happening today, but the falling away (apostasia) of 2 Thessalonians 2 that Apostle Paul spoke of is for when the coming false-Messiah shows up to work great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world into thinking he is God.
Back to man's pop 'once saved, always saved' doctrine again I see. That's part of the Hyper-Grace movement from men. Per Galatians 5, what did Apostle Paul teach? He taught that those who walk by their flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God...
Gal 5:16-21
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV
What now then, are we to just call Apostle Paul in the above a liar? didn't Paul mean what he said above that those who walk in the flesh shall not inherit the Kingdom of God?
What did Lord Jesus declare He will say to those believers on Him that work iniquity? Did your Hyper-Grace Church ever teach you about that?...
Matt 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto Me, "Lord, Lord", shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father Which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?"
23 And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity."
KJV
Therefore, it's obviously not me that does not understand what God's Word actually says in His Word about Christ's Salvation.
Other way around brother, because that is specifically the issue Apostle Paul was warning brethren about in 2 Thessalonians 2:34 about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world. Someone not willing to address that warning 'as written', show they are only expressing their feelings, and not staying with what the Scripture actually teaches as written.
For brethren that do... want to understand Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 and its timing...
2 Thess 2:1-4
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
Paul starts this off by pointing directly to the future event of Christ's coming and His gathering of His faithful Church.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul then repeats Christ's warning in His Olivet discourse to not allow any man to deceive us for the latter days, making that one of the major factors of the end times. Paul's "nor by letter as from us" suggests some false brethren crept into the Thessalonian Church had been passing false letters on this matter claiming to be from the Apostles. Thus Paul is having to remind the brethren there again about this topic of Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
And there it is again, Paul repeating Jesus' warning about the end per Matthew 24:4, to not let any man deceive us.
Paul then declares "that day" (Christ's coming to gather His Church), shall not come except the "falling away" (Greek apostasia - to leave what one once followed), must happen first AND the "man of sin" is revealed.
BOTH of those events Paul shows occur together within the same time frame at the end when that "man of sin" (false-Messiah) shows up in Jerusalem to sit in a stone temple and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
I have heard some Church systems of men wrongly proclaim that "falling away" as a separate event other than what Apostle Paul showed there along with that coming "man of sin", which they like to leave out and preach something else. Some of those deceived systems of men even refuse to admit this 2 Thess.2 chapter is even about a singular Antichrist figure to come! They also lie and claim that "temple of God" Paul mentioned means a pope sitting over Christ's Church, when Paul was pointing to a traditional Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem with the events Jesus covered about the coming Antichrist there!
What Paul was covering there is the same warnings that Lord Jesus gave about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to set himself up as The Christ, working great signs and wonders that IF possible would deceived even His very elect, and he will place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel (Dan.11:31).
One who actually stays... in God's Word AS WRITTEN can spot the lies and pop doctrines of men that are designed by the devil's own to steer brethren away... from understanding what Paul was teaching there in 2 Thessalonians 2. I am not one of those steered away.
For brethren that do... want to understand Paul's warning in 2 Thess.2 and its timing...
2 Thess 2:1-4
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
Paul starts this off by pointing directly to the future event of Christ's coming and His gathering of His faithful Church.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Paul then repeats Christ's warning in His Olivet discourse to not allow any man to deceive us for the latter days, making that one of the major factors of the end times. Paul's "nor by letter as from us" suggests some false brethren crept into the Thessalonian Church had been passing false letters on this matter claiming to be from the Apostles. Thus Paul is having to remind the brethren there again about this topic of Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV
And there it is again, Paul repeating Jesus' warning about the end per Matthew 24:4, to not let any man deceive us.
Paul then declares "that day" (Christ's coming to gather His Church), shall not come except the "falling away" (Greek apostasia - to leave what one once followed), must happen first AND the "man of sin" is revealed.
BOTH of those events Paul shows occur together within the same time frame at the end when that "man of sin" (false-Messiah) shows up in Jerusalem to sit in a stone temple and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is called God, or that is worshiped.
I have heard some Church systems of men wrongly proclaim that "falling away" as a separate event other than what Apostle Paul showed there along with that coming "man of sin", which they like to leave out and preach something else. Some of those deceived systems of men even refuse to admit this 2 Thess.2 chapter is even about a singular Antichrist figure to come! They also lie and claim that "temple of God" Paul mentioned means a pope sitting over Christ's Church, when Paul was pointing to a traditional Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem with the events Jesus covered about the coming Antichrist there!
What Paul was covering there is the same warnings that Lord Jesus gave about the coming pseudo-Christ to Jerusalem to set himself up as The Christ, working great signs and wonders that IF possible would deceived even His very elect, and he will place the "abomination of desolation" IDOL that Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel (Dan.11:31).
One who actually stays... in God's Word AS WRITTEN can spot the lies and pop doctrines of men that are designed by the devil's own to steer brethren away... from understanding what Paul was teaching there in 2 Thessalonians 2. I am not one of those steered away.
As I said, I have already posted and referred to many... SCRIPTURES in regard to this matter, and anyone can go back and look at my posts. But just to prove to you that what I have said from the John 17 Chapter IS BIBLE SCRIPTURE, I will cover those Scriptures directly here, for those interested. I do this for other brethren, because by your above statement you show you don't know the John 17 Chapter subject...
John 17:1-23
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee:
2 As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.
Jesus will later here cover just who all those above are that The Father gave Him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
Jesus was speaking specifically about His Apostles in the above. As I had said, those originally belonged to The Father, and He gave them to Jesus.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
Again, Jesus is speaking specifically about His Apostles above.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
That latter phrase, "for they are Thine" is Jesus declaring His co-equal status with God The Father.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
Jesus makes that co-equal claim again, and shows He and The Father already... 'owned' these Apostles Jesus is talking about. When you claim something is yours with words like "mine", it means you claim to own it.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus is pointing to Judas Iscariot as that "son of perdition". But long after Judas had died, Apostle Paul uses that "son of perdition" title about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world, per 2 Thessalonians 2. This is the closest Bible witness that one born in the flesh is already sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire, if it was only used about Judas. Actually then, Judas has not been judged to perish yet, because those born in the flesh are only judged and sentenced to perish after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.
13 And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
That idea of being 'sent' is what the Greek word apostolos means, an apostle. The above once again shows Christ's ownership of His Apostles whom He "sent". This is why Jesus would go up to them at the start of His Ministry and tell them, "Follow Me", and they got up and followed Him without question (Matt.4:19; Matt.8:22; Luke 5:27; John 1:43; I had assumed that most brethren had already read about Jesus saying that, but there's the Scripture proof as I said).
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
That above is a SECOND GROUP other than His sent Apostles. That second category Jesus mentions is about the majority of believers on Jesus Christ. Those represent the 'called'.
In contrast, the Old Testament Patriarchs and prophets and later Apostles are proof of Christ already owning them, because He directly intervened in their lives. Apostle Paul was prime example of a 'sent' one, since Paul was hunting down Christians to deliver in chains to Jerusalem to be tried by the unbelieving Jews. Jesus struck Paul (Saul) blind on the road to Damascus and revealed Himself directly to him (Acts 9). Then Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel".
This second group come to Christ through the preaching of His sent Apostles. The Apostles are 'sent' and thus chosen, but the second group that believe by their preaching of The Gospel represent the 'called'.
Thus the meaning of Jesus saying, "For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matt.22:14).
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
KJV
By that above, Jesus is showing that both, His sent ones, and those who would believe by their word, are to become ONE BODY in The Father and The Son Jesus Christ. Jesus also shows that The Father also before loved these of the second group also, their being 'called' only.
As long as those 'called' remain faithful in Christ, they become Christ's election joined with His sent ones. He will answer them when they ask as long as they remain in Him and in The Father. But for His sent 'chosen' ones, He will intervene in their lives without their asking.
John 17:1-23
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour is come; glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee:
2 As Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him.
Jesus will later here cover just who all those above are that The Father gave Him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
Jesus was speaking specifically about His Apostles in the above. As I had said, those originally belonged to The Father, and He gave them to Jesus.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
Again, Jesus is speaking specifically about His Apostles above.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
That latter phrase, "for they are Thine" is Jesus declaring His co-equal status with God The Father.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
Jesus makes that co-equal claim again, and shows He and The Father already... 'owned' these Apostles Jesus is talking about. When you claim something is yours with words like "mine", it means you claim to own it.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to Thee. Holy Father, keep through Thine Own name those whom Thou hast given Me, that they may be one, as We are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus is pointing to Judas Iscariot as that "son of perdition". But long after Judas had died, Apostle Paul uses that "son of perdition" title about the coming Antichrist at the end of this world, per 2 Thessalonians 2. This is the closest Bible witness that one born in the flesh is already sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire, if it was only used about Judas. Actually then, Judas has not been judged to perish yet, because those born in the flesh are only judged and sentenced to perish after Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.
13 And now come I to Thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have My joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them Thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
That idea of being 'sent' is what the Greek word apostolos means, an apostle. The above once again shows Christ's ownership of His Apostles whom He "sent". This is why Jesus would go up to them at the start of His Ministry and tell them, "Follow Me", and they got up and followed Him without question (Matt.4:19; Matt.8:22; Luke 5:27; John 1:43; I had assumed that most brethren had already read about Jesus saying that, but there's the Scripture proof as I said).
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
That above is a SECOND GROUP other than His sent Apostles. That second category Jesus mentions is about the majority of believers on Jesus Christ. Those represent the 'called'.
In contrast, the Old Testament Patriarchs and prophets and later Apostles are proof of Christ already owning them, because He directly intervened in their lives. Apostle Paul was prime example of a 'sent' one, since Paul was hunting down Christians to deliver in chains to Jerusalem to be tried by the unbelieving Jews. Jesus struck Paul (Saul) blind on the road to Damascus and revealed Himself directly to him (Acts 9). Then Jesus said Paul was His "chosen vessel".
This second group come to Christ through the preaching of His sent Apostles. The Apostles are 'sent' and thus chosen, but the second group that believe by their preaching of The Gospel represent the 'called'.
Thus the meaning of Jesus saying, "For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matt.22:14).
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them; that they may be one, even as We are one:
23 I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
KJV
By that above, Jesus is showing that both, His sent ones, and those who would believe by their word, are to become ONE BODY in The Father and The Son Jesus Christ. Jesus also shows that The Father also before loved these of the second group also, their being 'called' only.
As long as those 'called' remain faithful in Christ, they become Christ's election joined with His sent ones. He will answer them when they ask as long as they remain in Him and in The Father. But for His sent 'chosen' ones, He will intervene in their lives without their asking.
feel free to prove me wrong.
Yes, But it is still the church. Not induviduals. Like you are falsly interpreting it to be
Eternal life is eternal not conditional. Eternal life is the means to which we have hope and assurance of faith as John said in his 1st epistle.
And your right, Those who walk in the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How can they? They are too deep into self to give anything to anyone else or even to God.
Amen, But look, at the book of John, Those born of God do not live in sin, they do not continually walk in the flesh. And thise who are not born of God can not walk in the spirit.
so you have a major issue here. Like sadly many people. You are trying to get saved by your deeds, How good you are. By what you do or do not do.
When will you repent and give it to christ? Giving me a passage to show me how as a child of God I should walk, if I want to live in peace and harmony with God and become sanctified. Is not going to save you from your legalistic gospel of works.
I am not calling paul a liar. I am interpreting him correctly and in context.
Actually yes it did (although I do not follow Hyper grace, I was saved by grace period. When I in faith trusted him, not of works. Lest I should boast, as you are doing here.)
Aww thank you. You should really heed the words of Jesus, it is not me here that will claim to God all the great works I did that made me think God will save me, It is you and those like you.
Notice here, it does not say Jesus will say I knew you at one time, then I forgot you. (Loss of salvation) it says I never knew you. Period.. and that you practice iniquity or sin. Again, i take you to the book of 1st John where the apostle who walked wiht jesus said those born of God can not do this, because they have been born of God. Whoever does this has never known God. So you see. Nbt only did God not know them, they never knew him either (even thought the proclaimed they did)
got any more bright messages?
well my friend, All you did was prove YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND GODS WORD.
I mean the last verse you made destroys your legalistic gospel. Not my Gospel of grace.
yet you tried to use it against me..
Yes, But it is still the church. Not induviduals. Like you are falsly interpreting it to be
Eternal life is eternal not conditional. Eternal life is the means to which we have hope and assurance of faith as John said in his 1st epistle.
And your right, Those who walk in the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God. How can they? They are too deep into self to give anything to anyone else or even to God.
Amen, But look, at the book of John, Those born of God do not live in sin, they do not continually walk in the flesh. And thise who are not born of God can not walk in the spirit.
so you have a major issue here. Like sadly many people. You are trying to get saved by your deeds, How good you are. By what you do or do not do.
When will you repent and give it to christ? Giving me a passage to show me how as a child of God I should walk, if I want to live in peace and harmony with God and become sanctified. Is not going to save you from your legalistic gospel of works.
I am not calling paul a liar. I am interpreting him correctly and in context.
Actually yes it did (although I do not follow Hyper grace, I was saved by grace period. When I in faith trusted him, not of works. Lest I should boast, as you are doing here.)
Aww thank you. You should really heed the words of Jesus, it is not me here that will claim to God all the great works I did that made me think God will save me, It is you and those like you.
Notice here, it does not say Jesus will say I knew you at one time, then I forgot you. (Loss of salvation) it says I never knew you. Period.. and that you practice iniquity or sin. Again, i take you to the book of 1st John where the apostle who walked wiht jesus said those born of God can not do this, because they have been born of God. Whoever does this has never known God. So you see. Nbt only did God not know them, they never knew him either (even thought the proclaimed they did)
got any more bright messages?
well my friend, All you did was prove YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND GODS WORD.
I mean the last verse you made destroys your legalistic gospel. Not my Gospel of grace.
yet you tried to use it against me..