Ham saw his father naked, why Noah cursed Canaan (Son of Ham) instead of Ham?

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MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#61
my understanding is that people were doing something in those days that they tried to replicate in Sodom and in Gibeah, and perhaps beginning to pursue in Jericho, and will again attempt in the last days - in fact we are probably already working towards.

something God distinguishes as great evil, and destroys entire populations for.

There are a few clues in the Enoch writings--

And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind.

And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

In Genesis, it says that at the time of Noah-- the earth had become rot.

The fallen ones (the Watchers, or Nephilim) were teaching all kinds of sorcery....

And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl, taught astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .


Today we cut roots with CRIPSR technology-- and splice grafts to make genetic freaks, clones and chimera. There are those who drink blood (adrenochrome) to preserve youth, vitality, for longevity and beauty, knowing that the key to cellular renewal is simply a genetic switch that can be once again flipped on to achieve lifespans of hundreds of years as in those days of old.

As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be again at the end of the age.


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Jul 28, 2017
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#62
There are a few clues in the Enoch writings--
Mankind didn't have the ability to communicate with the written spoken word at the time of Enoch. Besides if Enoch learned this things in heaven then how did his writings make it back to earth.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#63
Mankind didn't have the ability to communicate with the written spoken word at the time of Enoch.
That's quite an assertion, written spoken as fact...... whatever that means.

if Enoch learned this things in heaven then how did his writings make it back to earth.
I suppose the same way John's record of the revelation Christ gave him in spirit made it back to earth. Or Ezekiel's or Zechariah or Isaiah, or any of the prophets.
 
Jul 28, 2017
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#64
That's quite an assertion, written spoken as fact...... whatever that means..
Means that you obtain the gift of speaking by hearing and actual interaction with someone speaking when you were a child.

Humans that never have that interaction during what is called the of critical period of development will never obtain the ability to communicate using the spoken word. Look up "The Forbidden Experiment" and and then look up Jenny, the feral child to see the reason why it is forbidden. This section of the video tells you why the ability is lost. Since we acquire the ability to speak by not only hearing the spoken word but by interacting with some who can speak then how did the first men acquire the ability to speak.
Means that you unless somebody who knew how to read taught you then you would never have develop the ability by read the spoken word by yourself.

Funny thing about reading is that you need a book, or the written word,before you can learn how to read. And without the written word to see, then it makes it kinda hard to learn how to write.

I suppose the same way John's record of the revelation Christ gave him in spirit made it back to earth. Or Ezekiel's or Zechariah or Isaiah, or any of the prophets.
They were all here on this planet when they wrote the words of their prophesy, Enoch didn't write his book until after "he was not." So how did his writings make it back to earth.
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
301
155
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#65
Means that you obtain the gift of speaking by hearing and actual interaction with someone speaking when you were a child.

Humans that never have that interaction during what is called the of critical period of development will never obtain the ability to communicate using the spoken word. Look up "The Forbidden Experiment" and and then look up Jenny, the feral child to see the reason why it is forbidden. This section of the video tells you why the ability is lost. Since we acquire the ability to speak by not only hearing the spoken word but by interacting with some who can speak then how did the first men acquire the ability to speak.
Means that you unless somebody who knew how to read taught you then you would never have develop the ability by read the spoken word by yourself.

Funny thing about reading is that you need a book, or the written word,before you can learn how to read. And without the written word to see, then it makes it kinda hard to learn how to write.

They were all here on this planet when they wrote the words of their prophesy, Enoch didn't write his book until after "he was not." So how did his writings make it back to earth.

Hello UnoiAmarah. Your presumption is that no one in Enoch's time knew how to read or write, so no one could have taught him. The reason we know that's a presumption, is that there are no facts to back it up. The little evidence we have does not support your premise-- the evidence we have is in fact a book of Enoch, so it was either dictated and copied, or written by Enoch himself. In either case, somone "in Enoch's day" knew how to write, by virtue of the existence of the book itself. The fact that scripture quotes Enoch is proof enough that it existed. Furthermore, the Dead Sea Scrolls contained numerous fragmented sections in Aramaic, of the book of Enoch.

I'm going to go out on a limb and take a wild guess that you have never personally read the book of Enoch yourself, or that you forgot the narrative if you have. In the book of Enoch, it's explained as follows.... it reads like a modern day alien abduction encounter-

And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming fire, and, when they wished, they appeared as men. And they brought me to the place of darkness, and to a mountain the point of whose summit reached to heaven.

Enoch is taken North, South, East and West.... to the portals of the heavens and to the hidden places in the earth.... and like John, or even Paul (who was taken up to the third heaven) he returns* -or simply awakens from the spiritual (out of body) experience/dream/vision and reports what he saw and heard.

He describes it like this>>

And after those days in that place where I had seen all the visions of that which is hidden--for I had been carried off in a whirlwind and they had borne me towards the west...

--and he tells his story, and teaches in parable, and he is the one who enlightens his grandson Noah, concerning the coming destruction of the earth by flood.

The book of Jasher further explains that Enoch was an upright man-- that's why he's in the book of the Upright/Jasher. When Enoch was 65 years old he secreted himself away from others.... maybe this here, is why the retirement age is 65. :)

And the soul of Enoch was wrapped up in the instruction of the Lord, in knowledge and in understanding; and he wisely retired from the sons of men, and secreted himself from them for many days.

And it was at the expiration of many years, whilst he was serving the Lord, and praying before him in his house, that an angel of the Lord called to him from Heaven, and he said, Here am I.

And the spirit of God was upon Enoch, and he taught all his men the wisdom of God and his ways, and the sons of men served the Lord all the days of Enoch, and they came to hear his wisdom.

It sounds a lot like Jesus. It sounds a lot like Elijah..... or the Jesus story sounds a lot like Elijah- who came before him and Elijah sounds a lot like Enoch, who came before him.

As John wrote:

No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.


So then it isn't that these men somehow went up into heaven and returned to earth-- rather, the son of Man-- the spiritual anointing fell (descended) upon them.
 
Oct 31, 2024
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#68
I have to ask..... Do you know what this thread is about?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Thread is Why Canaan is being Cursed while Ham who was the One who saw the Nakedness of his Father?
 
#69
Jasher 7:24-29 And the garments of skin which God made for Adam and his wife, when they went out of the garden, were given to Cush. For after the death of Adam and his wife, the garments were given to Enoch, the son of Jared, and when Enoch was taken up to God, he gave them to Methuselah, his son. And at the death of Methuselah, Noah took them and brought them to the ark, and they were with him until he went out of the ark. And in their going out, Ham stole those garments from Noah his father, and he took them and hid them from his brothers.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#70
Jasher 7:24-29 And the garments of skin which God made for Adam and his wife, when they went out of the garden, were given to Cush. For after the death of Adam and his wife, the garments were given to Enoch, the son of Jared, and when Enoch was taken up to God, he gave them to Methuselah, his son. And at the death of Methuselah, Noah took them and brought them to the ark, and they were with him until he went out of the ark. And in their going out, Ham stole those garments from Noah his father, and he took them and hid them from his brothers.
Where is the biblical text to support this, and how does it explain Noah cursing Canaan rather than Ham?
 

MrE

Active member
Jan 26, 2023
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#71
Where is the biblical text to support this, and how does it explain Noah cursing Canaan rather than Ham?
The book of the upright (the book of Jasher) is mentioned in scripture-- in Joshua and 2 Samuel, which means that it precedes those books. It would have been a part of the reference library for later writers. So when those later writers (like Moses) record their accounts, their presumption is that everyone has that same frame of reference and background. When they neglect to include certain details, it's because they do so thinking that everyone already knows those details-- as written in the book of Jasher....

It's like me saying to you-- 'The Bible tells the story of Jonah' --I don't have to tell you the story of Jonah, right here, right now-- because you can go read it for yourself -- the book of Jonah, in the Bible.

The support for the premise above is also written in the book of Jasher, that tells us concerning the theft of Noah's precious garments, that no one knew who took them. Noah had no ah dea. From his subsequent disdain for Canaan-- we might conclude that Noah thought Canaan was the culprit.
 

ATG

New member
Feb 14, 2022
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#72
GENESIS 9:20-25
20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.

24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Good question. However, 'instead of' isn't necessarily true. Along with is more likely.

The curse was upon Ham's descendants, which of course mattered to Ham. However, it says nothing about what Noah did about Ham himself.

Obviously he was not pleased with Ham, and perhaps ostracized him from the family, the same as his descendants would be. The offence was so bad, that it would be passed on to his children. Looks like Ham did not repent...
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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#74
Please help me to understand. Where did that pool come from? When Noah and his family,sons wives too of course,were the only survivors?
So, Noah family wearing the whole genetic pool of mankind. All races came out of them.
giants and pygmaen, different skin colours,
all in the genetic pool of this 8 peoples.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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#75
So, Noah family wearing the whole genetic pool of mankind. All races came out of them.
giants and pygmaen, different skin colours,
all in the genetic pool of this 8 peoples.
I don't know that we can think the race of giants,the sons of god, species that were the offspring of the Annunaki and human females,were genetically related to Noah or his daughter-in-law's.

If that DNA were there I wonder if God would have let that strain survive? When his purpose for the deluge was in large part to wipe the giants and Annunaki from the face of the earth.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#76
I don't know that we can think the race of giants,the sons of god, species that were the offspring of the Annunaki and human females,were genetically related to Noah or his daughter-in-law's.

If that DNA were there I wonder if God would have let that strain survive? When his purpose for the deluge was in large part to wipe the giants and Annunaki from the face of the earth.
Scripture does not say that, though. God was displeased with HUMANITY.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
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#77
I don't know that we can think the race of giants,the sons of god, species that were the offspring of the Annunaki and human females,were genetically related to Noah or his daughter-in-law's.

If that DNA were there I wonder if God would have let that strain survive? When his purpose for the deluge was in large part to wipe the giants and Annunaki from the face of the earth.
We read later that the Enakiter were giants and the lived after the flood in the times of Moses. I dont think that they are meant as the sons of god. They were different.
Also is Noah not in the genetic line of the sons of God, but your are right the daughters in law ore his wife could.
 
Apr 24, 2025
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#79
We read later that the Enakiter were giants and the lived after the flood in the times of Moses. I dont think that they are meant as the sons of god. They were different.
Also is Noah not in the genetic line of the sons of God, but your are right the daughters in law ore his wife could.
As I posted to sister Magenta, it was wrong in referring to the Annunaki.. It was the Nephilim in Genesis 6.

And I agree with you. We don't know the wives of the sons of Noah were genetically related to the giants,the offspring of the sons of God who came into the daughters of man.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/nephilim/