A few more thoughts. Let's review:
You dodged the Unicorn analogy. You dodged the "moon landing" analogy. You dodged the "flat earth" analogy.
I didn't dodge your analogies. I didn't agree with you, but that doesn't mean I 'dodged' them. If I were talking to someone who believed in unicorns, I couldn't prove to him they don't exist. Could they exist? Maybe. Me saying that isn't dodging. Why don't you calm down and read what people have to say. If someone disagrees with you, that doesnt mean he's being dishonest or not answering your questions.
You are apparently frustrated that I didn't answer the question the way you wanted. I didn't know you actually had a point beyond ranting and accusing. It's hard to see what your point is with your posting style.
If someone told me there were unicorns because the Bible says so (a KJV-onlyist), I'd agree that there is an animal the KJV calls a 'unicorn' because there is. I forget what we call that thing, now.
Can I prove there are no animals that look just like horses with one horn out of their nose? No. I don't believe there are any animals running around like that. But I"m not going to get bent out of shape over it.
Miracles are different. The Bible doesn't say there are one-horned horses. It does say the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles. Miracles are also different because there is plenty of evidence for miracles occuring, but not for the types of unicorns you are discussing.
And you picked a rather cumbersome analogy to deal with because the KJV calls a certain animal a unicorn, so unicorns are in the KJV Bible.
I invited you to discuss the Unicorn scenario. You then feign misunderstanding and claim "we're not discussing Unicorns".
Go back and look at that in context. We aren't discussing mythical beasts. We are discussing something that the Bible teaches is real. Try to follow the argument instead of looking for reasons to accuse and be upset. So your analogy doesn't work. The Bible teaches that the Spirit gifts individuals to do miracles.
Right. But we are discussing the Unicorn ANALOGY...if you were to choose to cooperate...which you do not.
That's my right. Why are you upset over unicorns? I am answering as best I can. Do you want me to agree that I can prove there are no one-horned horses like in the kids cartoons? No, I can't. I don't believe they exist. But the Bible doesn't teach that there are one-horned horses. There aren't hundreds or thousands of testimonies of miracles of miracles from Biblical times until modern times. (I've been meaning to have a look at that new book
Miracles by Keener which cites many historical examples.)
I've answers your unicorn analogy twice. I am sure I have not said whatever you wanted me to say. But do realize that is a normal thing, try not to get upset over it or to start name calling or accusing over it. Take a deep breath. If you have any comments that's okay. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over.
What these analogies prove is that one can reasonably conclude things without having been personally and physically present. I can reasonably ascertain there are no Unicorns anywhere on earth...without having personally scoured every square inch of earth. I believe one can reasonably ascertain there have been actual moon landings...without having personally traveled to the moon.
I could also claim there are no duckbilled platypuses. I could do this by not going to the wild in certain parts of Australia, not going to certain sections of certain zoos, avoiding certain web pages, and by calling anyone who claims to have seen one a liar. That is more akin to what you are doing. There is plenty of evidence for supernatural healing. I sent a link to a page that described a study of doctors in which the majority of them claimed that they had witnessed miracles. I suspect you haven't checked out Craig Keener's boore
Miracles, a scholarly book of evidence for miracles, before claiming there is none.
The Bible doesn't even say there are duckbilled platypuses. It does teach that the Spirit gifts individuals in the body with certain spiritual gifts. The working of miracles and the gifts of healing are among those gifts. Why don't you believe that. Where is your Biblical evidence that I Corinthians 12 is no longer true.
You are the question dodger. I've asked you that several times. You never answer it.
I can reasonably ascertain the earth is spherical without having actually traveled to outer space and been able to see the spherical shape myself. And I can reasonably ascertain there are no "Jesus-style" miracles going on...without having attended every single church service worldwide or having seen all 30 million YouTubes.
Is there any common ground here? Do you believe there is any supernatural healing going on? Do you believe people get out of wheelchairs at the laying on of hands, but it can taking them a while to be 100% like the video I pointed you do?
There are a lot of 'Jesus style' miracles. Jesus healed crowds of sick people with a variety of ailments. The Gospels focus on some of them. Some of the people just acted crazy and were healed. Jesus cast the demon out of them. An atheist skeptic could claim that was psychosomatic. He also open blinded eyes. The Pharisees could try to make it look like he wasn't really born blind. They didn't succeed, but those are the excuses that someone with unbelief in his heart could use to reject a true miracle. He also healed a woman bent over for years. The woman with the issue of blood? The skeptic could have said she was lying about that. If there was evidence for her ailment, they could have claimed it was chicken blood, or that she was still sick.
Jesus also spit on a man's eyes and laid hands on him. He saw 'men as trees walking.' A skeptic could have said, "He didn't get healed instantly." and criticized Jesus for laying hands on him a second time, though the critic never healed anyone at all. Jesus sent 10 lepers away who were healed on the way to the priest. Only one came back. Someone could have criticized Jesus for not healing the lepers instantly. The leper could have accused Jesus over it instead of giving thanks. But that type of criticism would have been rather unthankful.
The way you argue this topic is very similar to how an atheist might argue, btw.
You have dodged all three of those analogies I provided. Aimlessly chit-chatting about the moon landings, in one instance. It's just bizarre.
I didn't necessarily agree with your premise about the moon landing. That's one conspiracy theory that kind of makes sense given the wasteful money a moon landing takes, the deception used in the cold war, and the implications of a moon landing for the cold war. I don't have a strong opinion either way.
But I answered your analogies. You have nothing to be upset about, unless you are the type to get upset if someone doesn't agree with you.
Have you ever seen someone who has been stuck in a wheelchair for decades? Their legs are profoundly atrophied. You can spot it from a quarter mile. Have you even seen someone who has been blind for life? Their eyes are utterly dead. You don't need medical expertise to notice their eyes are just plain 'gone'.
Just once...has someone gotten a close-up video of someone fitting those descriptions...being able to instantly leap to their feet with 110% healing of their legs, just like in the Bible? Or just once...a close up video, before and after, of someone with profound life-long blindness...and where you can see that not only do they now have 20/20 vision...but that their eyes are no longer 'dead'. Where you can see their eyes have come back to life?
I mentioned what my undergrad degree is in and you said this is an anonymous forum and I could work at a burger restaurant. Now you have asking me what I have seen? Think through that. You call people dishonest over disagreeing with you, cast suspicion over mundane things like their education or career, and then ask for their experiences over something like this. Let's see if you can resist the urge to call me a liar if I tell you a few things.
I sent you a page full of links of various healings. I have been upfront in our previous conversations about what I've seen as far as healing goes. I believe in more than I've seen because my faith is not limited by my experience. As a child, I saw a fellow student at my school a year ahead of me who had thick coke bottle glasses and severely, obviously crossed eyes. The Christian school as affiliated with what would now be considered a small megachurch, since it had about 3000 people. I went to church. After a meeting an evangelist laid hands on the sick. He walked a woman way down in the front out of a wheelchair. I didn't know the lady. I didn't know if she could walk at all without the wheelchair. Maybe she was healed. I don't know. There was a huge crowd down there being prayed for.
The next day, us kids who got to school early were waiting for the doors of the school to be unlocked and we waited outside as usual. One of them was telling me about the girl in the class a year ahead of me with the crossed eyes and glasses being healed. I went over and talked with her and asked her what happened. It was obvious from looking at her that she had been healed. Her eyes looked normal, where before they were crossed. She wasn't wearing her glasses. She told me about the evangelist laying hands on her and being healed. That was my first experience with a supernatural healing.
I have been in meetings where people have claimed to hear out of previously deaf ears. I didn't know the people or test their hearing. I've seen a few other things. Have I seen someone I know personally get out of a wheelchair after years? No. I could find videos or eye-witnesses testimony of such things, but I haven't seen it first hand. I haven't seen someone raised from the dead like Lazarus, but I believe it can happen because of what the Bible teaches.
My beliefs on this are not limited by my experiences, because the Bible teaches things that go beyond my personal experience.
The Bible shows us that God does miracles and that the Spirit gifts individuals with working of miracles, gifts of healing, etc. as he wills. Modernistic philosophy doesn't allow for that. Atheists generally don't believe miracles happen. There is an anti-supernatural worldview that one can pick up from people who believe some of the current philosophies of this present evil age, especially the prevailing philosophies from when you were a child. Where do you get your worldview and belief system from when it comes to this topic, the Bible, or from this present evil age? You certainly aren't showing anything in the Bible for your belief that God does not do miracles.
And forget plowing through a thousand YouTubes -- why aren't such things being seen on the national TV shows of all these top Pentecostal and Charismatic churches...at least periodically? Just once even. A profoundly paralyzed individual who has utterly obvious and profound atrophy in his legs...leaping to his feet instantly with 110% healing...just like in the Bible?
I have scarcely watched those type of American TV shows in 20 years. I have spent much of my life overseas. Some of the reports of these things related to these types of miracles from 'frontier areas' of the Gospel, which makes sense Biblically. There is a style of crusade that has people pray for themselves or each other, then give testimonies in the front. Benny Hinn does that. Aside from theological issues, speaking of 20 or 30 years ago when I saw him on TV, he doesn't use a very critical process for evaluating of people have been healed. Some people see that and it makes them more skeptical. That should effect our understanding of the Bible, though. It seems like there are more healings through the laying on of hands in YouTube videos than on TV, at least compared to my experience with American Christian television.
You have no good answer. I do have the answer: Because this stuff is no longer going on. Just plain, ordinary, garden-variety common sense.
You move the bar. I presented Delia Knox as a case of a documented healing. You maligned the character of the preacher who prayed for her and complained about her hobbling a bit after 22 years in a wheelchair. Her case is enough to rebutt a claim that there is no supernatural healing going on through the laying on of hands in the name of Jesus. If someone showed you a video of a similar healing where the handicapped person were much frailer, but was jumping up and down in two seconds, would you really accept that as evidence, or at least hold off on objections until you had investigated it? Or would you automatically accuse those involved in it of fraud?
The issue is your heart, not the evidence. We have plenty of evidence of what the range of our expectations should be in the Bible. The problem is that you do not accept that.