Have You Meditated on the Distinction
- Thread starter JaumeJ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P
Abba, I pray for each of us who post here, not just on this thread, but all. I ask that You would allow us to see not the words posted, but help us to see, as You do, the heart beneath those words. We are the body of Christ, yet misunderstandings cause dssension, and this ought not be. I ask that you would give us grace for one another, and that the perfect Law of Love be observed. Not, o Lord, that wrong ideas of You should be perpetrated, but that all things should be done in order, and according to Your will. And not that lies of You should be spoken, but that the Truth would be shown patiently.
I thank You with my whole heart for the courtesy shown us on this thread by all, and ask that it would be an example to us that we would not forget.
You know we love you, Abba, and that each of us does that while we are as yet confined in this sinful flesh, so it's done oh, so imperfectly. Help us to seek Your face, to know You better and better. I ask this in the name of the One who died for us. Amen.
1 Samuel 16:7
I thank You with my whole heart for the courtesy shown us on this thread by all, and ask that it would be an example to us that we would not forget.
You know we love you, Abba, and that each of us does that while we are as yet confined in this sinful flesh, so it's done oh, so imperfectly. Help us to seek Your face, to know You better and better. I ask this in the name of the One who died for us. Amen.
1 Samuel 16:7
Noah found grace in the eyes (understanding) of the Lord and that was before the law was given. So grace was needed and necessary to deliver man from judgment before the law came. Man understood sin in the law of the conscience and when the law came and was given to Moses it made sin exceedingly sinful giving sinful man a greater need for salvation but could never offer the salvation and deliverance that man so desperately needed. Grace did not just pop up on the scene when the law came and raised the guilt of sin in the conscience of man but when sin abounded through the law grace did much more abound (Rom 5:20). When God sent His Son, Christ came by grace and truth and did not come by the law. He came to fulfill the law but not be a minister of it, but instead He came to minister grace and truth because of the sin that man was born with that separated him from God. Man needs grace because of sin he inherited from Adam and not because of the law.
Rom 8:2,3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Men who found grace; Noah did (Gen 6:8), Lot did (Gen 19:19, Jacob did (Gen 33:10), Joseph did (Gen 39:4, 47:29), Moses did Ex 33:12-17.
Rom 8:2,3
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Men who found grace; Noah did (Gen 6:8), Lot did (Gen 19:19, Jacob did (Gen 33:10), Joseph did (Gen 39:4, 47:29), Moses did Ex 33:12-17.
Last edited:
Now Im gonna go nuts trying to find the scripture. 
I think it was about tasting the heavenly host, but not sure.
Oh well, that why bible lookup sites are such a blessing.
God bless
pickles
I think it was about tasting the heavenly host, but not sure.
Oh well, that why bible lookup sites are such a blessing.
God bless
pickles
The words that come to mind for me are in the Psalms:
Psa 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
E
Hello JaumeJ. Thanks for sharing that.
Well many have experienced similar things concerning the search for an assembly. But we're not called to worship and serve The Lord in isolation - we ought to keep searching until we find an assembly of believers to worship serve and fellowship with. I do not know what sort you found yourself in 40 years ago. They sound of the ecstatic sort (?), certainly not very kind to you.
You do recognize that the Judaizing Paul warned against is damnable heresy. So it should not be a surprise if you encounter alarm if you are acting and sounding primarily "jewish". Particularly in our modern day as Judaism is decidely and openly thoroughly separate from the ancient Old Covenant Torah faith of Our Lord. Today's Judaism is entirely the apostate religion of the Pharisees. People will be on guard over this - and rightly so.
If you know this, perhaps it may be you who ought consider your fellows in Christ (as you did mention above) and not cause offense to them in their lack of understanding toward you. This is poorly worded but you get the idea.
In evangelism I believe it's very important to actually establish relationships with those we are introducing to Christ and the Gospel whenever possible, at least arranging for them to make contact with a healthy congregation as they grow (since street preachers just move along) - otherwise we may be hurting them more than helping, as they'll end up finding a group just like you did, or no group at all. And many will not have the endurance to even carry on as you did. This is very serious.
Also, I am impressed and happy for you that you have learned Hebrew. Do not forget though that Koine Greek is as important to know, and important to know that Our Lord Himself ordained the New Covenant doctrine and teachings would go out to the world in this language - the change is not to be taken lightly. There was a change.
Finally, though I'm not going to go into it here, the etymology of the word jew needs to be understood by those who identify by it, particularly Christians. This would help immensely to dispel confusion, and for that reason needs to be done.
_
I must say I am amused at times by those who cry out that we must return to what they have imagined in their minds was first century Christianity in all our practices and ways. The first Christians, The Way were brutality persecuted and killed by the jews, barely tolerated by the Romans then eventually killed and persecuted by the Romans as well.
Many independent believers (lone rangers) insist that if we (i.e: in the west) are not being persecuted (run out of Dodge so to speak) we're not really "doing it right"! Haha.
Anyway, thanks again for the post.
Well many have experienced similar things concerning the search for an assembly. But we're not called to worship and serve The Lord in isolation - we ought to keep searching until we find an assembly of believers to worship serve and fellowship with. I do not know what sort you found yourself in 40 years ago. They sound of the ecstatic sort (?), certainly not very kind to you.
You do recognize that the Judaizing Paul warned against is damnable heresy. So it should not be a surprise if you encounter alarm if you are acting and sounding primarily "jewish". Particularly in our modern day as Judaism is decidely and openly thoroughly separate from the ancient Old Covenant Torah faith of Our Lord. Today's Judaism is entirely the apostate religion of the Pharisees. People will be on guard over this - and rightly so.
If you know this, perhaps it may be you who ought consider your fellows in Christ (as you did mention above) and not cause offense to them in their lack of understanding toward you. This is poorly worded but you get the idea.
In evangelism I believe it's very important to actually establish relationships with those we are introducing to Christ and the Gospel whenever possible, at least arranging for them to make contact with a healthy congregation as they grow (since street preachers just move along) - otherwise we may be hurting them more than helping, as they'll end up finding a group just like you did, or no group at all. And many will not have the endurance to even carry on as you did. This is very serious.
Also, I am impressed and happy for you that you have learned Hebrew. Do not forget though that Koine Greek is as important to know, and important to know that Our Lord Himself ordained the New Covenant doctrine and teachings would go out to the world in this language - the change is not to be taken lightly. There was a change.
Finally, though I'm not going to go into it here, the etymology of the word jew needs to be understood by those who identify by it, particularly Christians. This would help immensely to dispel confusion, and for that reason needs to be done.
_
I must say I am amused at times by those who cry out that we must return to what they have imagined in their minds was first century Christianity in all our practices and ways. The first Christians, The Way were brutality persecuted and killed by the jews, barely tolerated by the Romans then eventually killed and persecuted by the Romans as well.
Many independent believers (lone rangers) insist that if we (i.e: in the west) are not being persecuted (run out of Dodge so to speak) we're not really "doing it right"! Haha.
Anyway, thanks again for the post.
The home group was charismatic, and all I did after over two years of fellowshipping with them was to say Jesus Christ was a Jew. I had no concept of Messianic Judaism, and I was not trying to change the manner of worship in any manner. It was with glee I shared this information and cold water was thrown upon it with that reception of the simple fact. I continued sharing the Word, and one day it was made clear to me I was to go to Israel. I did, and even after six months there and coming home and decades later, I did not begin using Jesus' original name, at least the one I believe to be closest, Yeshua, until a couple of years ago. I do not teach people to go back to the Jewish practices before Yeshua, but I do tend to believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with believing those who claim to love Yeshua should at least be able to acknowledge His being a Jew and the faith being of Abraham. If this is too much for a group of professing believers, I simply cannot worship with them in spirit and truth, it would be anti-Messiah.
E
I understand and have read these words Jaume, .
The scripture: when you love the Lord with your whole heart, then you shall see His face.
It has been my heart's desire since I can remember.
Yet, I know how much flesh is still keeping me from this.
Simply because I see every one of my sins, as saying this part does not love you Lord.
Please do not misunderstand, I know none of us can do this on our own, only by grace are we saved.
I know this is the goal of every heart in Jesus.
Its just , if one trully looks to Jesus, one can see that Jesus fullfilled the law, brought us to the greatest commandment.
That you love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart soul and streangth, and your neighbor as yourself.
On this, all the laws are based.
This has always told me that we are called to know and live in the perfect, Jesus,recieving and loving in God's love.
God bless
pickles
.The scripture: when you love the Lord with your whole heart, then you shall see His face.
It has been my heart's desire since I can remember.
Yet, I know how much flesh is still keeping me from this.
Simply because I see every one of my sins, as saying this part does not love you Lord.
Please do not misunderstand, I know none of us can do this on our own, only by grace are we saved.
I know this is the goal of every heart in Jesus.
Its just , if one trully looks to Jesus, one can see that Jesus fullfilled the law, brought us to the greatest commandment.
That you love the Lord your God with all your mind, heart soul and streangth, and your neighbor as yourself.
On this, all the laws are based.
This has always told me that we are called to know and live in the perfect, Jesus,recieving and loving in God's love.
God bless
pickles
Thank you.
I was pondering how to reply to the same thing, as you did. I am glad I decided to read further.
Bless you.
E
JaumeJ
In this you are still not understanding. Pickles has delivered the word of the Lord!
The Law is good for instruction in life and to mirror our sin!
Grace was God not imputing our sins to us as He gave His Son in our stead. Making HIM sin for us!
Grace was what Jesus did on our behalf, in His perfection in life and obedience, and in His perfect dying.
This was confirmed as accepted by Him, Who was pleased to crush His Own Son, when He raised Him from the dead!
The Grace God has given is not for grace under the Law! It is through faith in the Only One Who ever pleased The Father and loved Him fully!
Again, I say amen Pickles.
Rejoice I say, rejoice!
All honor and power and glory and praises to Jesus Christ Our Lord.
In this you are still not understanding. Pickles has delivered the word of the Lord!
The Law is good for instruction in life and to mirror our sin!
Grace was God not imputing our sins to us as He gave His Son in our stead. Making HIM sin for us!
Grace was what Jesus did on our behalf, in His perfection in life and obedience, and in His perfect dying.
This was confirmed as accepted by Him, Who was pleased to crush His Own Son, when He raised Him from the dead!
The Grace God has given is not for grace under the Law! It is through faith in the Only One Who ever pleased The Father and loved Him fully!
Again, I say amen Pickles.
Rejoice I say, rejoice!
All honor and power and glory and praises to Jesus Christ Our Lord.
All I have said is there would be no grace were it not that the law existed first. If the law were perfect and all could live by it there would be no need of grace. Thus grace came because the law was not perfect. If it has been understood in any other manner from me, I am very sorry. This is what I have learned from the Word. We live in grace, and because of grace, death has lost its sting because the law is no longer of any avail. Now, this has nothing to do with obeying the commandments of Yahweh. Perhaps everyone thinks the ceremonial laws of Moses are the same as the commandments, and if they do, I am sorry again.......
E
Yes.
Two years. wow.
I understand.
Did you agree with the reality that we are to be on guard for the heresy of the Judaizers.
Again, I understand. I would not join a charismatic congregation.
The landmarks aside, what did you encounter there, if you would share. perhaps another thread.
What faith being of Abraham, JaumeJ.
Again, have you studied the etymology of the word jew.
If you desire to be precise, consider doing this.
There is much in the movements, HR and MJ that is antichristian antigospel JaumeJ.
Be careful in your zeal for the physical ancestry of Jesus and these bodies of men in flesh that you do not run ahead of (or fall back from) the Kingdom He established at Pentecost, the Good News of which went out into all nations, kindreds and tongues....by those were so long ago gathered at Jerusalem.
Two years. wow.
I understand.
Did you agree with the reality that we are to be on guard for the heresy of the Judaizers.
Again, I understand. I would not join a charismatic congregation.
The landmarks aside, what did you encounter there, if you would share. perhaps another thread.
What faith being of Abraham, JaumeJ.
Again, have you studied the etymology of the word jew.
If you desire to be precise, consider doing this.
There is much in the movements, HR and MJ that is antichristian antigospel JaumeJ.
Be careful in your zeal for the physical ancestry of Jesus and these bodies of men in flesh that you do not run ahead of (or fall back from) the Kingdom He established at Pentecost, the Good News of which went out into all nations, kindreds and tongues....by those were so long ago gathered at Jerusalem.
E
No need to apologize, for me at least.
But the Law is perfect. It is we who are not since God is Infinitely Holy. The Law can not perfect that which is imperfect. It can only reveal Gods Righteousness.
Its not that we need grace while under the Law.
Grace is found in Gods gift of His Lamb.
Through Him we seek a Righteousness apart from the Law
Romans 3
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
But the Law is perfect. It is we who are not since God is Infinitely Holy. The Law can not perfect that which is imperfect. It can only reveal Gods Righteousness.
Its not that we need grace while under the Law.
Grace is found in Gods gift of His Lamb.
Through Him we seek a Righteousness apart from the Law
Romans 3
19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.
Justification by Faith
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
This is only MY OPINION, so please take this with a grain of salt.
The Jews had a problem with the Gentiles, it was not the other way around. Even Peter, as an approved apostle, got sucked into dissimulation, along with Barnabas, because he ate with the Gentile Christians and then withdrew and separated himself because of certain Jews (Gal 2:9-17). If someone is going to respond to a conversation that Jesus was a Jew, knowing that it might provoke others, why not use some wisdom and add something like, 'But boy did the Lord love the Gentiles also and even called and raised up a zealous Hebrew and former Pharisee to bring the gospel specifically to the Gentiles and what a great job he did doing that, laying his life down for so many'.
This rejection and treatment of the Gentiles had been going on for so long that perhaps we see it reciprocating upon the Jews from the Gentiles even to the point of becoming a byword among the nations (Deut 28:37, 1Kgs 9:7, 2Chr 7:19,20, Ps 44:14). This is only my opinion as is any form of trouble and persecution that the Jews have faced, after being scattered, was a form of discipline and chastisement from the Lord for their rebellion against His word and later their rejection of Christ the Messiah in His first coming.
The Jews had a problem with the Gentiles, it was not the other way around. Even Peter, as an approved apostle, got sucked into dissimulation, along with Barnabas, because he ate with the Gentile Christians and then withdrew and separated himself because of certain Jews (Gal 2:9-17). If someone is going to respond to a conversation that Jesus was a Jew, knowing that it might provoke others, why not use some wisdom and add something like, 'But boy did the Lord love the Gentiles also and even called and raised up a zealous Hebrew and former Pharisee to bring the gospel specifically to the Gentiles and what a great job he did doing that, laying his life down for so many'.
This rejection and treatment of the Gentiles had been going on for so long that perhaps we see it reciprocating upon the Jews from the Gentiles even to the point of becoming a byword among the nations (Deut 28:37, 1Kgs 9:7, 2Chr 7:19,20, Ps 44:14). This is only my opinion as is any form of trouble and persecution that the Jews have faced, after being scattered, was a form of discipline and chastisement from the Lord for their rebellion against His word and later their rejection of Christ the Messiah in His first coming.
Having been a language/linguistics student at the U of I, my natural inclination is to investigate word origins, etymologies. I am quite familiar with the meaning of Jew and Judah. When I typed the law was not perfect, it was with the implication it was not perfect for mere humans because they are not perfect generating the need for something better for all of us, that being the grace afforded by the Blood of the Lamb of God, Yahweh. As for strict analysis of my posts, an attempt at comprehension is always appreciated beforehand. The charismatic group with whom I fellowshipped is composed of very beloved individuals, and we would worship, pray and sing together, and share everything, so it was quite a painful experience to be expelled simply for acknowledging Jesus Christ was on this earth as a Jew. As for judaizing, I never paid attention to this gerund, however it smacks of absurdity in that how is it possible to judaize Jesus. He was a Jew, a practicing Jew, and all who come to Yahweh by His Blood are of His flock also, having been joined together. He taught of us as His flock to be brought together with the original. I know the difference between the Israel I visited in 1972-73 and the Israel of Yahweh. The capitol of my Israel is New Jerusalem, and it will be brought down to earth by Yahweh. It is the Jerusalem of promise and not of the law. Unhappily when it comes to anything sounding too Jewish, many run away.....Yahweh bless you always. I hope I am not judaizing in using the Hebrew name, it is that it is etymologically correct, however unpolitically.