Having it both ways.

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C

Chapel

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I feel no joy in typing this. I will probably be banned from the site after this.

As a believer in God, in Jesus Christ, and the wisdom of the Bible; I really have some things that have been eating at me regarding our beliefs. I have tried to sit and talk with people of faith about theses things, but each person...like a record...like a brainwashed soldier...completely dismiss my words and babble the same phrases and Bible verses that I have heard over and over since I was a child.

So if you choose to read this, more importantly, if you choose to comment or answer; I ask that you please be open-minded. Even if you don't agree with the things I type here, please offer an answer...please don't be rude, condescending, or overly preachy. I have had plenty of that from "Christians" already.

***

I will be going back to church for the first time in a long time tomorrow. I have been pretty beaten down by life, and have lost a great deal of faith and joy; it will be odd to sit in the pews and listen to words I no longer believe. But I still realize that if I am to have peace in this life or the next, I really need to reconnect with God.

***

These feelings started actually a long time ago. A minister pointed at me after I had confessed some sins and said "how could YOU do this to our Lord?! After all our savior have given, how could YOU betray Him like this? How could YOU?!"

I sat back feeling a mixture of confusion, guilt, and anger. She then went into the usual sermon about how Christ had died for us and cleansed us of OUR sins, and how the world was such a bad place because of OUR deeds and OUR disobedience.

She, like every other Christian, spoke of how God had created all, had all knowledge, and all power...until...I ask questions about the negative aspects of the world and life. Then suddenly the story changed from "God has all power" to "well...Satan has been given dominion over this world" or "well...man has free will and chooses to do wrong."

These are the same things that every Christian I've spoken to has used as justification of our sinful nature. Also, blame is passed to Adam and Eve for their disobedience to God in the Garden of Eden.

I don't understand how a being (our God), who created ALL, has ALL knowledge, and ALL power...is believed to have absolutely no hand in the condition of our world. All that is good, He is given credit for, all that is bad...is everyone else's fault. Man has not the power to create sin, the angels (Satan included) do not have the power to create sin! The one and only being in all of creation who actually has the power to create sin...is the one being held totally blameless!

Genesis 3 describes the fall of man. In verse 5, when Satan is convincing Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit he states: "You will not surely die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

There was obviously more to being like God than having the knowledge of good and evil.

The thing is that there is no time frame given as to when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. It could have been weeks, months, years, decades, HUNDREDS of years...but what is made clear is that up until that point where they ate of the fruit, becoming "like God"; the world was a more tranquil place. Only after they became more "like God" did all of the negative aspects of our nature began to pour into the world.

Did God not know BEFORE He created Adam EXACTLY what Adam would do? He knew before creating that...very pointless tree...what the effects if it would be. But He created it anyway. So, God was not "testing" Adam, He did not "want to see if Adam would be obedient"...because He already knew what the outcome would be. He knew in advance Adam would disobey. He is God after all...to say that He didn't know would be a contradiction to what the Bible tells us.

People seem to think that "God is good ALL the time"; that His every action is out of love and the betterment of mankind. All you have to do is read through the Old Testament to see that this perception of God is very untrue; most of His actions (some pretty darn sadistic) were done solely so that He could be glorified.

I am NOT a God hater...okay. But it seems that while far more advance, God is OUR prototype. Just as humans are capable of commuting tremendous acts of love and goodness, at the exact same time we are capable of committing horrific acts of cruelty. While there is light in us, we all have a darkness that we hide from most others, we all have secrets. All of our feelings and emotions...good and bad...where do you think they came from? Satan? No.

The point of me typing this is not to place any sort of blame on God or demonize Him. Really it isn't. But I am just...beat down...really tired of people pointing the finger at mankind and talking about how bad, evil, and sinful we are. Even the best of us have some sort darkness within...and we did not CHOOSE to be this way.

***

Thank you for taking the time to read. I am really, really sorry if some of this is offensive; but it is really on my mind. If I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate some clarification on this subject matter.
 
Your welcome and thank you. I have read your message many times finding many reminders similar questions I have asked over the years and recalling scriptural verses that have brought about resolution to the confusion or lack of understanding that I had. Continue to seek and knock for the answer to you questions are there for those that have ears to hear. Sorry....don't mean to be preachy which is hard not to do to answer your questions.
 
hello brother.....what your asking has crossed the minds of most Christians....free will ....God gives us that...
if we choose to ignore Gods Word we risk being alone without protection....The only way we can receive
Gods help is by doing things His way....our free will is what causes most trouble....my son passed away
at the age of 6....can you imagine anything worse than that...the unfairness.....I tell you this as an example
of why bad stuff happens......as we were walking to the place of the accident ....I got sick to my stomach....
I knew we should not have been going there....I was frightened for no reason.....something kept telling me
dont go......something...how foolish...later I realized it was God warning me.....and I just thought I was being
ridiculous and silly...God was trying to tell me......don't feel sorry for me....im just trying to help you understand why bad
things happen........we try to go out there without the protection....on our own.......and sometimes we are fools to think
we dont need Him and we are grown and know what we are doing....but truly...thats is when attacks hit us blind....
We have a choice...our way....Or Gods way.....He gives us instruction....when we refuse to follow and then wonder why
God doesnt hear us....I hope you find the answer you seek...and I hope you give God another look......
He loves us and He wants whats best...we just have to listen...
May you find peace and joy...............jo
 
Well... I really don't know where to start. But I know a bit about what you mean, but you brought a lot more insight which even makes sense for me to even question. I'm pretty sure this God had a reason for putting that tree that Eve took the fruit off of and I can't say whether or not it was intentional for them to become tempted or if it served any other purpose. When growing up we were told that God knew everything that would happen to everyone and pretty much summing up as to where our final destinations would be. Then you hear of people saying that God doesn't know and that it's our free will to determine, and then some where they say he sees the options and the end results for each. So who knows.

I can't help but question about the whole good and bad either. So Satan brings in the bad, God the good. And yet there's scriptures that say it rains and gives sun on every crop, so it doesn't really matter whether you follow or not in order to have it rain or sunshine. But when good things do happen, we have to praise God and say he did it, or that he is going to prepare events for us. How does that make sense if it's shown that good and bad will happen and events will happen to everyone and say that God or Satan intervenes on it for it to happen? It irritates me with how some people have expectations when it clearly is going by choice, though I can't say I'm not guilty of that either. I'm getting the impression that God does in fact just sit and watch but also wants praise no matter what. -shrugs-

I'm probably also not giving any help. That really wasn't my intentions, my intention was to say that I've been thinking the same thing and thank you for bringing the subject forward. Maybe and hopefully there would be some answer without a heated debate.
 
Confession of sin is supposed to be followed by absolution i.e. the pronouncement of the forgiveness of your sins...period.
Not a tirade of 'How could you have?"
Next time find a Church that believes the bible and does not ordain women among other things.

Jesus never scolded those who confessed their sins to Him...only scolded the self righteous.
 
Chapel,

something we have found out is that any connection with our Father,
happens in His time, in the place He chooses, and many times it is
not a pre-fab-manufactured stage.

Christ is our Mediator, we don't need a another.
we can confess our sins in the closet and be forgiven and released.
yes, we are told to confess our sins one to another, but know that
we can work-out the blemishes ourselves, through Christ.
when we have peace with God, then we can witness of our sins
to others in a profitable way.

we are all familiar with the 'hanging-on to the guilt' syndrome, and this does
cause much confusion and anger.
when we are wrongly shamed and accused by the 'traditional-religious-authority',
we can only go backwards and take on even more guilt.

ultimately, our Faith must be in our Saviour and in His Words that He has
so graciously given to us all.
read and study them with all of your heart and mind and spirit, and you
will find the peace and comfort that you and all of us so desperately seek.

we are to submit and give our hearts to the One who 'actually forgives our sins'.
His purpose is for us to be 'released' and set free from our past sins,
and this includes ALL the GUILT.
IF we carry old burdens around, we can't serve Christ fully.

our High Priest always does His part, and we have to do ours.

remember, we must 'forgive' all sins committed against us,
else peace will only elude us and any deep seeded anger
will pervade in our hearts and cause constant confusion.
 
inthewind said:
Continue to seek and knock for the answer to you questions are there for those that have ears to hear.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice, and I will indeed continue to question and listen for answers. One of my fears is that on searching for the answers I may come across an...over zealous person...who many become offended. Someone once told me that in the over-all scheme of things; asking questions and knowing answers are pointless if it does not pertain to the glorification of God.

To me, not asking questions means to follow blindly...I believe that God gave us a mind for a reason...to think, to assess; not just blindly follow.

Thanks again!
 
All things that God allows are for His ultimate glory. However, this does not mean that He is seeks validation of His true character for He certainly does not need this. Some things God allows and some things He directs but it is all for the ultimate benefit for those that He loves. God is love and He loves each individual person that He has ever created.

I believe that God allows for free will in all decisions because He desires to be loved by those that He created. He is lonely for us. He wants this love to flow freely and naturally from us and not to be compelled or shaped by a series of occurrences, whether good or bad, but rather by the faith in the evidence unseen by those that desire to love and serve Him.

Further, I do not believe that God chose to know beforehand whether or not Adam and Eve would chose to disobey Him by eating of the tree of knowledge. Now, having chosen to do so, they were now ashamed of the evil that had manifested into their hearts. They were now afraid of the Lord because their sin was exposed to His presence and was shown to them by His light.

God’s love is ultimate and complete for us and He has made provisions for the forgiveness of sins and the salvation of our souls so we can bask in this type of love for all eternity. It is His will and desire that none should perish so that all can have everlasting life with Him. This was done at great cost as the Father turned His back on His son that hung on the cross because He could not bear to look at sin. Jesus died for our sins so that we may live. That is why this human drama is being played out on this earthly stage. When the show is over we all go home to be with the Lord.

That will be the day.
 
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Matt. 15.jpg

As the body of Christ - we must have the same compassion that Jesus did. He would not allow a sinful woman to be stoned. He healed with compassion for the hurting. He taught with compassion for the spiritually blind. And finally, he took upon himself our sins and paid the punishment for them - and in return gave us his righteousness and put us under his grace.
 
Chapel said:
I feel no joy in typing this. I will probably be banned from the site after this.

I doubt it.


As a believer in God, in Jesus Christ, and the wisdom of the Bible; I really have some things that have been eating at me regarding our beliefs. I have tried to sit and talk with people of faith about theses things, but each person...like a record...like a brainwashed soldier...completely dismiss my words and babble the same phrases and Bible verses that I have heard over and over since I was a child.

Why are you placing your faith in man? I don't !! why? because I am reading the same bible they are. Have faith in the good book and stop looking for validation in man because you won't find it easily.

So if you choose to read this, more importantly, if you choose to comment or answer; I ask that you please be open-minded. Even if you don't agree with the things I type here, please offer an answer...please don't be rude, condescending, or overly preachy. I have had plenty of that from "Christians" already.

Believe you will find this board very different because it has many true Christians versus hypocrites.

***

I will be going back to church for the first time in a long time tomorrow. I have been pretty beaten down by life, and have lost a great deal of faith and joy; it will be odd to sit in the pews and listen to words I no longer believe. But I still realize that if I am to have peace in this life or the next, I really need to reconnect with God.

Easy ... just get saved and establish a relationship with Jesus and obey His laws, commandments and statues.

***

These feelings started actually a long time ago. A minister pointed at me after I had confessed some sins and said "how could YOU do this to our Lord?! After all our savior have given, how could YOU betray Him like this? How could YOU?!"

Sounds like an insensitive hypocrite to me. Jesus loves sinners ... so should he.

I sat back feeling a mixture of confusion, guilt, and anger. She then went into the usual sermon about how Christ had died for us and cleansed us of OUR sins, and how the world was such a bad place because of OUR deeds and OUR disobedience.

Would have walked out and found a real church.

She, like every other Christian, spoke of how God had created all, had all knowledge, and all power...until...I ask questions about the negative aspects of the world and life. Then suddenly the story changed from "God has all power" to "well...Satan has been given dominion over this world" or "well...man has free will and chooses to do wrong."

Not a pastor I would stay with because she should have preached the power of the cross and Jesus love for sinners.

These are the same things that every Christian I've spoken to has used as justification of our sinful nature. Also, blame is passed to Adam and Eve for their disobedience to God in the Garden of Eden.

Please remember there are Christians who are very knowledgeable on the Bible and those who are not. We have free will and the power of the Cross when we make a mistake. That's why Christ gave His life .

I don't understand how a being (our God), who created ALL, has ALL knowledge, and ALL power...is believed to have absolutely no hand in the condition of our world. All that is good, He is given credit for, all that is bad...is everyone else's fault. Man has not the power to create sin, the angels (Satan included) do not have the power to create sin! The one and only being in all of creation who actually has the power to create sin...is the one being held totally blameless!

If you know your Bible well, you will know that He hasn't us free will to make our own choices and the limits of his will and the consequences of sin. It is virtually impossible to battle Satan alone and that why through His blood we are saved and filled with the Holy Ghost so that we can have a better chance of combatting even along with repenting our sins.

Genesis 3 describes the fall of man. In verse 5, when Satan is convincing Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit he states: "You will not surely die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." God gave them prior warning

There was obviously more to being like God than having the knowledge of good and evil.

The thing is that there is no time frame given as to when Adam and Eve disobeyed God. It could have been weeks, months, years, decades, HUNDREDS of years...but what is made clear is that up until that point where they ate of the fruit, becoming "like God"; the world was a more tranquil place. Only after they became more "like God" did all of the negative aspects of our nature began to pour into the world. Wrong!! you have two choices: obey God or join Satan. There is no middle ground. Again, all in the Bible. Did you ever read the Bible?

Did God not know BEFORE He created Adam EXACTLY what Adam would do? He knew before creating that...very pointless tree...what the effects if it would be. But He created it anyway. So, God was not "testing" Adam, He did not "want to see if Adam would be obedient"...because He already knew what the outcome would be. He knew in advance Adam would disobey. He is God after all...to say that He didn't know would be a contradiction to what the Bible tells us.

God has always warned the people of the consequences for disobeying Him. Does a parent knows in advance what they will endure with a newborn child over the course of 21 years? Of course they do.

People seem to think that "God is good ALL the time"; that His every action is out of love and the betterment of mankind. All you have to do is read through the Old Testament to see that this perception of God is very untrue; most of His actions (some pretty darn sadistic) were done solely so that He could be glorified.

Then you have a choice in Satan and he isn't a pocket of joy. God always warns of the consequences of His punishment, and the people still disobey Him. Satan gives no such warning other than watching it with enjoyment.

I am NOT a God hater...okay. But it seems that while far more advance, God is OUR prototype. Just as humans are capable of commuting tremendous acts of love and goodness, at the exact same time we are capable of committing horrific acts of cruelty. While there is light in us, we all have a darkness that we hide from most others, we all have secrets. All of our feelings and emotions...good and bad...where do you think they came from? Satan? No.

If they are evil, absolutely Satan.

The point of me typing this is not to place any sort of blame on God or demonize Him. Really it isn't. But I am just...beat down...really tired of people pointing the finger at mankind and talking about how bad, evil, and sinful we are. Even the best of us have some sort darkness within...and we did not CHOOSE to be this way.

We have choices and I chose to accept Him as Lord, got saved and obeying His laws, statues and covenant. I am enjoying the best time of my life now. It came about when I accept Him as Savior.

***

Thank you for taking the time to read. I am really, really sorry if some of this is offensive; but it is really on my mind. If I am wrong, I would greatly appreciate some clarification on this subject matter.
Click to expand...

You need to really read your Bible with power, passion and authority. All of your questions would have been answered by reading the Bible. Get saved and accept the Holy Ghost to guide you.
 
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This is long but from God. He loves you, God bless and (The King of) Peace be with you.

"7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:7-21

God loves us, have you ever felt the Love of Jesus Christ? Like, spiritually, agape. It is true, all these things happened for a reason, but because God loved us and wants to be with us ever since the beginning of creation and before He even KNEW us

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5

"11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." Jeremiah 29:11

"But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called meby his grace," Galatians 1:15

"My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth." Psalm 139:15

"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there wasnone of them." 139:16


Do you understand the True Love of Christ? Not just some story you hear all the time by manic Christians (hahaha). Have you ever felt He was real and He is true and faithful and He is there with you right now? That He will never forsake you even though you do not know all things, but you can, just like jogoldie said, keep knocking and asking.

"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." Matthew 13:11

And it is true, God knows everything, but you shouldn't be afraid:

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." Deuteronomy 13:6

"And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed." Deuteronomy 31:8

I hope The Lord shows you truly as to why the reason we are the way we are, because it is important to know and you will no longer be afraid, but yes we do struggle but trust God, learn to trust His voice, draw near to Him. Give HIM ALL your fears and be careful to which churches you go to:

"They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:16

"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." 18:36

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." John 8:23

"I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." John 17:14

"We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error." 1 John 4:6

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" John 10:27

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." John 10:14
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1

"15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Matthew 7:15

On that note, when The Lord reveals to you, I also want to let you know:

"2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work." 2 Thessalonians 2

But do not be afraid, because The Lord is with you:

"The LORD is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?" Psalm 118:6

You and anyone can know, just keep knocking

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:" Matthew 7:7

"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me" Revelation 3:20

I pray that when He shows you, you will be strong and will not fail, but rather be so thankful and joyous to know how much He loves you

 
biscuit,

Thank you for making an attempt to break down my post into sections and give insightful words of knowledge. While it is clear that you have a good understanding of the Christian faith (as it is taught), and have a great relationship with Our Lord; I fear that you completely...totally...missed my point.

But it is okay though, many have done the same. When we are taught a certain way of thinking; it is very easy to dismiss everything else.

Also, in you post you state things like..."...just get saved and establish a relationship with Jesus and obey His laws, commandments and statues."

And...

"You need to really read your Bible with power, passion and authority. All of your questions would have been answered by reading the Bible. Get saved and accept the Holy Ghost to guide you."

I...really don't know how to explain, or get you to understand that; for me it is not so simple. Sure, I can go to church, sure, I can read the Bible, but doing these things don't just automatically eliminate the conflict within me. If it were so simple to just "get saved"; then everyone would do it...because people tend to always want to do what is easiest.

It is not so black & white. It is not so..."accept Christ all your heart"; never fearing and never doubting.

A lot of my lack of faith stems from the MANY times I have surrendered to Christ, and the MANY times afterward that I was dropped flat on my face. The MANY times I "put it in God's hand"...and was let down. I have accomplished much through my own efforts, rather than waiting on God (that sounds really bad).

I know it is something I need...and am...working on.

To just say, "get saved"...is...I don't know. Not everyone is sanctified enough to "just do it" without any doubts, or worries, or fears or questions.

But thank you.
 
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