He became sin...???

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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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In fact let's take a step back long before Adam & Eve. His name? Lucifer:

Es 28:12 “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering...The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

God created Lucifer as the seal of perfection. He created him perfect in every thing, until iniquity (indwelling sin) was found in him.

Lucifer wasn't tempted. He was perfect, until iniquity was found in him. IT was then that he was tempted to take God's place. That's the sin of coveting:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God...[Is 14:12-13]

Conclusion: Lucifer wasn't tempted until iniquity was found in him! Then he became Satan, the adversary.
Please pardon my intrusion... A couple of questions, if I may...
How can iniquity be found in a perfect being? Or, stated
another way, how can a perfect being be found to have iniquity
within itself? Does being perfect encompass the inclusion of iniquity?
 
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until iniquity (indwelling sin) was found in him.
Now finding sin in a being does not define its source or how it got there or why. This is a conceptual construct with very little to go on. But you are using it to suggest Lucifer had no free will, could not walk away.

But I have a deeper question? Why did Lucifer fall? Because he fell in love with himself? He exalted himself to a degree that was without knowledge or understanding, the pride in his beauty, a gift given to him, became his stumbling block.
He assumed he knew enough, to go beyond being a created being into the eternal, is just insane.

Now to suggest this justifies ideas as to what perfection is or is not is not good theology.
 
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Please pardon my intrusion... A couple of questions, if I may...
How can iniquity be found in a perfect being?
First, we must define iniquity. Iniquity is a condition. As a result of the fall mankind is spiritually bent so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. It is iniquity that makes sinning possible.

Now an answer for your question: I have no idea. The Bible doesn't explain how iniquity could appear in a sinless being and thus cause him to fall. The Bible does tell us that God didn't create iniquity because He created Lucifer perfect.
 
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... you are using it to suggest Lucifer had no free will, could not walk away.
Free will, but no desires towards sin. In fact Lucifer had no idea what sin was because sin didn't exist.
 
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Free will, but no desires towards sin. In fact Lucifer had no idea what sin was because sin didn't exist.
I got to laugh. Sin is not a thing you can pick up, that is created, played with. It is about actions within a context. It declares the breaking of loyalties, allegiances, trust etc.

Nowhere does it say that sinful actions had not happened before Lucifer, or how things stand. You want to read into the world your construct, so that by simplifying sin, somehow you externalise and objectify what it actually is.

To put it simply, sin is such a complex problem, we have the whole bible to help us define what it is, and how it works.
For me the best feeling I have is the rebellion and sense of denial that God is the reference point, that i have done nothing wrong and I will justify myself before Him. The truth is He is the ultimate reference point, and I barely grasp what I am and how I work, and everything He finds fault with, is truly flawed and failed, but I need His help to become something else.

My heart tells me, I turn in a milli second the wrong way, and do not even notice. It is not sin, it is something about where I am and where life puts me.

Did Lucifer have desires? It appears he did. Sin was acting on them. An interesting thing about our human life, is how little control we have over our desires, and how overwhelming they can become. Where the boundary between free will and being a slave to sin is I do not know, but I do experience and understand the concept of being a slave to righteousness, but fighting the flesh and its desires.

If the Nephilim where angels, they also have sexual desires, which is odd. So I only see this area in part.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Yes, to me that's temptation, but that's because I have a nature that loves to rebel. I have a nature that is opposed to God and His law. That wasn't true with Adam and Eve. So please tell me, since you seem to know everything, how can a sinless being, in the image and likeness of God, indwelt only by the divine nature, be tempted to sin?
Read the bible ..satan tempted them through deception ..with lies
Why is that so hard to understand?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
In fact let's take a step back long before Adam & Eve. His name? Lucifer:

Es 28:12 “You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering...The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.

God created Lucifer as the seal of perfection. He created him perfect in every thing, until iniquity (indwelling sin) was found in him.

Lucifer wasn't tempted. He was perfect, until iniquity was found in him. IT was then that he was tempted to take God's place. That's the sin of coveting:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God...[Is 14:12-13]

Conclusion: Lucifer wasn't tempted until iniquity was found in him! Then he became Satan, the adversary.
This is so dumb...so according to you satan was without sin, but Jesus had sin?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
First, we must define iniquity. Iniquity is a condition. As a result of the fall mankind is spiritually bent so that the driving force of his very nature is the love of self. It is iniquity that makes sinning possible.

Now an answer for your question: I have no idea. The Bible doesn't explain how iniquity could appear in a sinless being and thus cause him to fall. The Bible does tell us that God didn't create iniquity because He created Lucifer perfect.
Sorry you don't get to define biblical terms ...the bible does that. And for you to say you don't know how satan could be perfect and yet have sin..YET declare that you know Christ (who is clearly perfect) has sin because of some logic you hold...shows how full of error you are.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
Free will, but no desires towards sin. In fact Lucifer had no idea what sin was because sin didn't exist.
Wow... you seem to know him on a personal level? All this nonsense to say that Jesus had a sin nature? Despite the clear and evident reading of the scriptures? I think you have some sick desire to blaspheme Christ, as many who hold false doctrines do.

Are you a Jahovahs Witness?
 
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He created Lucifer perfect.
Perfect is such a miss-leading term. Perfect is actually only a relative term based on your goals or way of measuring the objective. That was perfect means it was exactly what you wanted.

But perfect in relation to God, does not have reference points we can pin down.

The law of the Lord is perfect, refreshing the soul.
Psalm 19:7

Now the law has some problems in how it is described, its context and limitations. But the writer means the intention of the Lord in the law is without fault or failure. You will find though as the pharisees did you can take a concept to a rediculous degree where it looses its meaning or keep the letter but break the principle behind it.

So what you want to imply about Lucifer is he had no capacity to sin, which again is not true, as he did sin.
Jesus describes him as the father of lies. Or another way of putting it, he is so lost he has nothing to loose.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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Ezekiel 28:15 tells us that Lucifer was blameless in his ways from the day he was created, until unrighteousness was found in him, And Ezekiel 28:17 shares why it was he stepped outside of his faithfulness to God, "Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your own splendor......"

But I wanted to approach this question of did Jesus become sin? Jesus did not become sin in the sense that He became a sinner and needed to be born again. Jesus was the perfect Lamb of God. He was the perfect and sinless sacrifice for our sins. He knew no sin.

Jesus did not separate Himself from God when He died, when some look at Matt. 27:46 they get confused. Jesus felt distance from God because He took our sins onto Himself. He paid the penalty that is real, and yes He boar sin fully on His shoulders, yet He never separated from God. How could He? He Himself was God, how can God separate Himself from Himself?

2 Cor. 5:21, clearly states that Jesus who "Knew no sin" became "Sin". It did not say, however, He became a sinner. The Greek does not say this. Isaiah tells us that when Jesus died on the cross, God the Father placed the sins of the world on Him. To have the iniquity of man laid onto You is not to become iniquity! Nonetheless, it was, indeed, fully felt and experienced.

God did not see sin on anyone else. It was all on Jesus. So did Jesus become sin? Jesus was sin! Absolutely! Our Salvation depends on it... But to say that Jesus was a sinner on our behalf ignores other significant passages in the New Testament.

* "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29

* "For Christ also died for sins once and for all the just for the unjust...." 1 Peter 3:18.

* "And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins: and in Him there is no sin." 1 John 3:5.

He did not become a sinner He did not need to be reborn. As a result, He was able to take the sin of the world onto Himself just before He died. As a result, a sinless man died, the perfect quarter to fit the payment slot. A man who did not deserve to die because God the Father had placed the sins of the world on Him. He did not deserve to die, but He did. When He died He experienced the pain and death that was our lot in life, not His. In this way God has shown His love to us. Jesus willingly died in our place because He loved us.

I am no longer looking at the power of sin now or it's influence that ever existed against God or His Son! I am noticing how powerless sin is in the regenerated Masterpiece God has created.
 
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the perfect quarter to fit the payment slot.
Jesus had to be sinless or else He could not pay the price for sin, as he would have failed in His own right and should be judged to have failed. Equally there would be no moral victory, or ability to change, and it would have proved the sin makes slaves of every being put in this mortal world.

The problem is though, one life for all does not add up, unless that life was infinite, eternal, God himself.

Language is always full of summaries. People cannot become sin but sinners, ie people guilty of sinful acts.
Paul appears to be saying if Jesus removed the very thing that motivates sin, and killed it on the cross, you could say he became sin and removed its punishment and effect. The problem is this is playing with ideas, and pushing language.

We say for instance a car and the driver became one. But that is about perception of the driver, thinking about what needed to be done and not what they had to do to achieve it. Or like touch typing, I do not think about the letters just the words I want to express and away I go.

Another area is Jesus is the sacrifice. But he was not presented at the altar, his blood shed on the etc. but figuratively that is what happened. That is why the curtain was torn in two, the way now open to meet God face to face in Jesus.
 

slave

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Mar 20, 2015
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Jesus had to be sinless or else He could not pay the price for sin, as he would have failed in His own right and should be judged to have failed. Equally there would be no moral victory, or ability to change, and it would have proved the sin makes slaves of every being put in this mortal world.

The problem is though, one life for all does not add up, unless that life was infinite, eternal, God himself.

Language is always full of summaries. People cannot become sin but sinners, ie people guilty of sinful acts.
Paul appears to be saying if Jesus removed the very thing that motivates sin, and killed it on the cross, you could say he became sin and removed its punishment and effect. The problem is this is playing with ideas, and pushing language.

We say for instance a car and the driver became one. But that is about perception of the driver, thinking about what needed to be done and not what they had to do to achieve it. Or like touch typing, I do not think about the letters just the words I want to express and away I go.

Another area is Jesus is the sacrifice. But he was not presented at the altar, his blood shed on the etc. but figuratively that is what happened. That is why the curtain was torn in two, the way now open to meet God face to face in Jesus.
You lost me on some of that? First am I not in agreement with you on your points? And do you not believe Jesus actually bore His life on a cross in real time actuality? Or did I get that wrong? I haven't grasped your statement of your point yet, I am sorry! Especially how it differs from The bible I had outlined.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
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Jesus had to be sinless or else He could not pay the price for sin, as he would have failed in His own right and should be judged to have failed. Equally there would be no moral victory, or ability to change, and it would have proved the sin makes slaves of every being put in this mortal world.

The problem is though, one life for all does not add up, unless that life was infinite, eternal, God himself.

Language is always full of summaries. People cannot become sin but sinners, ie people guilty of sinful acts.
Paul appears to be saying if Jesus removed the very thing that motivates sin, and killed it on the cross, you could say he became sin and removed its punishment and effect. The problem is this is playing with ideas, and pushing language.

We say for instance a car and the driver became one. But that is about perception of the driver, thinking about what needed to be done and not what they had to do to achieve it. Or like touch typing, I do not think about the letters just the words I want to express and away I go.

Another area is Jesus is the sacrifice. But he was not presented at the altar, his blood shed on the etc. but figuratively that is what happened. That is why the curtain was torn in two, the way now open to meet God face to face in Jesus.
There are some details I need more info on to talk more, why is the one life for all not working for you again? Because God was God Himself so I am not sure the question there. Also sinners are a result of the particulars of sin the acts, but a sinner is a result first of the "Being" of sin. Which is the evil rebellion that ruled our Old Self the Carnal Nature, the Spirit Of death. You go on to say we are pushing language, Jesus pushed much language, it ended up being called truth, so I am at a loss for the conclusive statements to know the issue you have is all. I believe Jesus' death and resurrection was a literal removal and concurring of sin at it's core, which also then reflects it's out going branches or sins acts. This is in noway figurative, unless you are using it within the context of it's own truth, and reality.
 
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There are some details I need more info on to talk more, why is the one life for all not working for you again? Because God was God Himself so I am not sure the question there. Also sinners are a result of the particulars of sin the acts, but a sinner is a result first of the "Being" of sin. Which is the evil rebellion that ruled our Old Self the Carnal Nature, the Spirit Of death. You go on to say we are pushing language, Jesus pushed much language, it ended up being called truth, so I am at a loss for the conclusive statements to know the issue you have is all. I believe Jesus' death and resurrection was a literal removal and concurring of sin at it's core, which also then reflects it's out going branches or sins acts. This is in noway figurative, unless you are using it within the context of it's own truth, and reality.
A lot of the discussion is around words, and images or shadows.
The Lord interestingly put it in the ceremonies himself. A spotless lamb given for sins, without measure, not a one for one concept.

Our language tends to link one life, one sinner, for one debt. I do believe His death is enough, but the language we use often seems like a court equation, when the whole reason, relationship issue is everything.
 
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You lost me on some of that?
This demonstrates to me something in how we express these concepts. They have become or often are words repeated from scripture rather than living breathing ideas in our heads.

I met a south korean pastor once who understood the gospel or so I thought. The problem is a small twist, and being a christian can become a tailisman, a way of getting blessing, a series of obligations and ceremonies to earn reward. It almost fits except for the sinner is a failure part. Justification by faith alone was a alien concept to him.

But this step is a step into the Kingdom. It all hinges on who makes us who we are, and how we walk into life.
Some would argue just the idea of us walking means I am talking works, but works do not exist as justification if you have already arrived. But it is simply stupid to suggest change is not part of the scheme else righteousness is just a pipe dream and religion is just wishful thinking.

It struck me today how often we live thinking we understand those around us, when mostly we pick up cultural signals which are just that, and the truth is much more. But how many want truth and how many want just to feel secure? The simple answer is in Jesus we have both, but that can seem a hard message, but that is why we need faith to reach out and walk in it.
 
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M

Mitspa

Guest
A lot of the discussion is around words, and images or shadows.
The Lord interestingly put it in the ceremonies himself. A spotless lamb given for sins, without measure, not a one for one concept.

Our language tends to link one life, one sinner, for one debt. I do believe His death is enough, but the language we use often seems like a court equation, when the whole reason, relationship issue is everything.
Your right...folks can try to make words mean a lot of things, almost everyone that teaches false doctrine has to change the meanings of words from the intention in scripture to some false definition, often based upon their own religious tradition. The bible defines the terms of the words it uses and all serious bible students have spent many hours to see that the words of the bible, can be trusted.
 
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Job: 38. 5. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6. Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7. When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Ezekiel: 28. 14. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Isaiah: 14. 9. Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11. Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

Ezekiel: 31. 8. The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chestnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
9. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.
10. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;
11. I have therefore delivered him into the hand of the mighty one of the heathen; he shall surely deal with him: I have driven him out for his wickedness.
12. And strangers, the terrible of the nations, have cut him off, and have left him: upon the mountains and in all the valleys his branches are fallen, and his boughs are broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the people of the earth are gone down from his shadow, and have left him.
13. Upon his ruin shall all the fowls of the heaven remain, and all the beasts of the field shall be upon his branches:
14. To the end that none of all the trees by the waters exalt themselves for their height, neither shoot up their top among the thick boughs, neither their trees stand up in their height, all that drink water: for they are all delivered unto death, to the nether parts of the earth, in the midst of the children of men, with them that go down to the pit.
15. Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him.
16. I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
17. They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
18. To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD.
*ALL OF THIS ARE SPIRITUAL WORDS OF GOD
BECAUSED IF WE REFRAIN TO SEE
ACCORDING TO THE LETTERS
AND WITHOUT SPIRITUAL THOUGHTS THAT GUIDES US
LIKE THIS EXAMPLE BELOW ↓

:smoke: according to which (what) is written :happy:
in old written scripture there was no "Lucifer" mentioned
Sad to say but this is the truth . ... let's help each other
to find the truth
my brethren :happy: and my fellows :happy:
my brothers and my sisters
Believers and unbelievers (if those people want to repent)

:scarf: thank you very much :welcome:

God bless us all always
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
63,616
32,240
113
:smoke: according to which (what) is written :happy:
in old written scripture there was no "Lucifer" mentioned
Sad to say but this is the truth . ... let's help each other
to find the truth
my brethren :happy: and my fellows :happy:
my brothers and my sisters
Believers and unbelievers (if those people want to repent)

:scarf: thank you very much :welcome:

God bless us all always
Satan is mentioned in Job... or ha Satan (the Satan). See Job 1:6-12. Also in 1 Kings 11:14, among many other places. The Hebrew word 'satan' literally means "adversary" or " enemy" and the Greek word "diabolos" literally means "slanderer" or "accuser." Satan is mentioned about 50 times here: http://www.openbible.info/topics/satan
 
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I got to laugh. Sin is not a thing you can pick up, that is created, played with. It is about actions within a context. It declares the breaking of loyalties, allegiances, trust etc.
And I have to laugh back at you. You have no idea what sin is, biblically speaking. You think it's just breaking rules (actions) probably. The essence of sin is a u-turn agape. It's agape, but towards self. The Bible calls this iniquity.

Read Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2]. It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Nowhere does it say that sinful actions had not happened before Lucifer....
You are kidding? Sin didn't exist before Lucifer. Dust your Bible off and read it!