Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?

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Willie-T said:
Ok. It came across to me as you didn't see that part.
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And IMO, this comes down to "Do we really believe Christ paid for all Sin?" And most people don't.

Christ finished sin and its consequences. We are not talking about people paying for sin and the debt it creates.

We are talking about the consequence of not having eternal life. Sin and its consequences(judgement) no longer exist.
 
Gr8grace said:
I don't think I did Willie.

Christ is not in hell forever because He was perfect and sinless and was our substitute. He actually paid a higher price in the first split second of being separated from the Father as perfection then we could pay by eternal separation as fallen.[/QUOTE

i appreciate your answer bro. Don't think I don't. He was the unblemished lamb of God. I get that. But still....a penalty is a penalty and exceptions can't be made in regards to ultimate justice. If God made an exception for himself that is a pretty huge problemo.
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Gr8grace said:
And IMO, this comes down to "Do we really believe Christ paid for all Sin?" And most people don't.

Christ finished sin and its consequences. We are not talking about people paying for sin and the debt it creates.

We are talking about the consequence of not having eternal life. Sin and its consequences(judgement) no longer exist.
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its consequences(judgement) no longer exist.
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Can you explain this please.
 
Sorry to just jump in 17 pages later, but here's my take on hell:

God’s word tells us the world is made of things unseen, which describes the atom and it’s subatomic components. The interesting thing about the atom is that it’s nucleus is composed of like-charged particles, and orbiting that are another set of like-charged particles. The laws of science dictate that like charged particles repel each other, indicating the whole dang thing should just naturally come apart.

But God says that all things are held together by Him (Hebrews 11:3; Col. 1:16). The Lord spoke this creation into existence, putting it together by His very Word (note the similarity of word/world). We are told that at the end of its existence the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Consider what happens when an atom is split - it creates intense heat and fire as the element is ripped out of existence.

The lake of fire only appears after this creation is de-created. Could it be possible that when God speaks it out of existence, the resulting nuclear meltdown of all created matter that now exists as our earth and heavens will create the lake of fire? Would it seem fitting that those who love this world more than Him, would be given it in its natural state apart from Him?
 
Sirk said:
Thats the point. The words sheol and hades are mistranslated from the original greek manuscripts. They are actually referring to the grave.
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Yes.
These ones are translated as "grave" mostly.

But there are also words "gehenna" and "tartaros". These ones should be translated as hell.
 
RickyZ said:
Sorry to just jump in 17 pages later, but here's my take on hell:

God’s word tells us the world is made of things unseen, which describes the atom and it’s subatomic components. The interesting thing about the atom is that it’s nucleus is composed of like-charged particles, and orbiting that are another set of like-charged particles. The laws of science dictate that like charged particles repel each other, indicating the whole dang thing should just naturally come apart.

But God says that all things are held together by Him (Hebrews 11:3; Col. 1:16). The Lord spoke this creation into existence, putting it together by His very Word (note the similarity of word/world). We are told that at the end of its existence the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Consider what happens when an atom is split - it creates intense heat and fire as the element is ripped out of existence.

The lake of fire only appears after this creation is de-created. Could it be possible that when God speaks it out of existence, the resulting nuclear meltdown of all created matter that now exists as our earth and heavens will create the lake of fire? Would it seem fitting that those who love this world more than Him, would be given it in its natural state apart from Him?
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Uh....... "The elements" are pretty clearly spoken of in other places in the Bible as the fabric of the Jewish Sacrificial System.
 
Sirk said:
Gr8grace said:
I don't think I did Willie.

Christ is not in hell forever because He was perfect and sinless and was our substitute. He actually paid a higher price in the first split second of being separated from the Father as perfection then we could pay by eternal separation as fallen.[/QUOTE

i appreciate your answer bro. Don't think I don't. He was the unblemished lamb of God. I get that. But still....a penalty is a penalty and exceptions can't be made in regards to ultimate justice. If God made an exception for himself that is a pretty huge problemo.
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Who are you to question God? He is the creator! You may want to do a study on the various scriptures related to the ones I posted.
Isaiah 29:16
You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding "?



Job 33:13
"Why do you complain against Him That He does not give an account of all His doings?

Read Job.
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RickyZ said:
Sorry to just jump in 17 pages later, but here's my take on hell:

God’s word tells us the world is made of things unseen, which describes the atom and it’s subatomic components. The interesting thing about the atom is that it’s nucleus is composed of like-charged particles, and orbiting that are another set of like-charged particles. The laws of science dictate that like charged particles repel each other, indicating the whole dang thing should just naturally come apart.

But God says that all things are held together by Him (Hebrews 11:3; Col. 1:16). The Lord spoke this creation into existence, putting it together by His very Word (note the similarity of word/world). We are told that at the end of its existence the elements will melt with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:7, 10, 12). Consider what happens when an atom is split - it creates intense heat and fire as the element is ripped out of existence.

The lake of fire only appears after this creation is de-created. Could it be possible that when God speaks it out of existence, the resulting nuclear meltdown of all created matter that now exists as our earth and heavens will create the lake of fire? Would it seem fitting that those who love this world more than Him, would be given it in its natural state apart from Him?
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We still have sheol and hades which will be thrown into the lake of fire. It appears that your comments are for a philosophical discussion and not this one.
 
trofimus said:
Yes.
These ones are translated as "grave" mostly.

But there are also words "gehenna" and "tartaros". These ones should be translated as hell.
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I won't bother to post the several thousand words I can think of on this, but "Nope" they were messed up translations too.
 
MsSuzanna said:
Sirk said:
Who are you to question God? He is the creator! You may want to do a study on the various scriptures related to the ones I posted.
Isaiah 29:16
You turn things around! Shall the potter be considered as equal with the clay, That what is made would say to its maker, "He did not make me"; Or what is formed say to him who formed it, "He has no understanding "?



Job 33:13
"Why do you complain against Him That He does not give an account of all His doings?

Read Job.
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It isn't God that is being questioned here. It's others potentially maligning His character that are being questioned.
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Sirk said:
Gr8grace said:
I don't think I did Willie.

Christ is not in hell forever because He was perfect and sinless and was our substitute. He actually paid a higher price in the first split second of being separated from the Father as perfection then we could pay by eternal separation as fallen.[/QUOTE

i appreciate your answer bro. Don't think I don't. He was the unblemished lamb of God. I get that. But still....a penalty is a penalty and exceptions can't be made in regards to ultimate justice. If God made an exception for himself that is a pretty huge problemo.
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I appreciate having this dialog Kris. We are Bros. same as Willie. You guys know Grace and His salvation. And I am with ya, it seems we have all stopped wondering and asking questions.

And On this issue, I see Christ as paying the debt over and above Gods Justice. He didn't just satisfy it, He more than satisfied it. ANd really Kris, I don't think anyone will truly know how they "pulled" it off until eternity.

The judge can ask for 1000 bucks for justice, but if someone offers 1000000000 over the thousand, Justice is still satisfied.
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Willie-T said:
I won't bother to post the several thousand words I can think of on this, but "Nope" they were messed up translations too.
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Well, maybe they were messed up in our "culture" or view, but at least gehenna is related to fire. And fire is the main attribute of hell.
 
MsSuzanna said:
We still have sheol and hades which will be thrown into the lake of fire. It appears that your comments are for a philosophical discussion and not this one.
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I don't agree with Willie's assessment, but since you think it's not appropriate for your thread I'll just butt back out of it!
 
My current view is that for sure there are some people that refuse Christ's sacrifice. How? I don't know how people can do that when they see what He has really done and of His great love for them. ( maybe if we preached the real gospel they might get to know that fact? )

So, there is a "state of being" or "condition" in that these that reject Christ are being tormented - but not in the traditional sense.

What torments these people is the love and goodness of God. As crossnote put in that scripture in Revelation that said those that reject Christ are tormented in the presence of the angels and of the Lamb.

So, whatever term people call this "state of being" or "condition" is. This is really a manifestation of the love and goodness of God because they are in His presence.

Colossians says that everything is held together by Christ. I don't believe in this separation from God theory. ( separated from experiencing the quality of God's life - yes ) I believe those that reject Christ are in fact in His presence still.

It's the goodness and love that heaps coals of fire onto people. This is what I think people that reject Christ will experience. His goodness and love will torment them.

Romans 12:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD."

Just some random thoughts on the subject...:)
 
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RickyZ said:
I don't agree with Willie's assessment, but since you think it's not appropriate for your thread I'll just butt back out of it!
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Well I find that most that stick to the word dont agree with willies assessment of things. LOL
It just seemed like you were focusing on science and philosophy rather than how the discussion was flowing. Did I misunderstand you?
 
MsSuzanna said:
Can you explain this please.
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I already have. and You railed on me. And I let it be. It seems to be fruitless to try to speak with you. But here it is again......

Not one person is going to be held accountable for their sins. Jesus Christ died for ALL sin.

unbelievers will be judged according to their DEEDS, not sin. They will have the opportunity to make their case that they were "good enough"(Books opened) and they are judged according to their own SELF righteousness..........and it will not make the cut.

New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Unbelievers still die in the sphere of their sin(Because Jesus didn't put a stop to sin) but they will not be judged according to their sin(because Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin)
 
Gr8grace said:
Sirk said:
I appreciate having this dialog Kris. We are Bros. same as Willie. You guys know Grace and His salvation. And I am with ya, it seems we have all stopped wondering and asking questions.

And On this issue, I see Christ as paying the debt over and above Gods Justice. He didn't just satisfy it, He more than satisfied it. ANd really Kris, I don't think anyone will truly know how they "pulled" it off until eternity.

The judge can ask for 1000 bucks for justice, but if someone offers 1000000000 over the thousand, Justice is still satisfied.
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Yes. Same here. What I sort of think is that even tho Jesus spoke of being raised on the third day, there was a measure of doubt built into his being 100% human and all..,,that it might be the end of the road for Him. Now if that isn't faith I don't know what is.
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