Hell. It is in the Bible isnt it?

[Gr8grace]

I'm not really in that camp either. Can I just say "I don't know"? What I am tho, is asking the question in regards to eternal torment because I want the people who believe in that to provide an answer for it....or just simply say that they don't know..... instead of throw these scriptures at me that I've already chewed on and chewed on.

At this point in my walk, I do believe that it is eternal separation. And conscious at that. But I don't believe it is God "sticking" it to unbelievers. Or that He is the one punishing them. They are in their OWN torment.

 

[oyster67]

Which gives us a problem with all the people who pound their Bibles, and shout "There is only ONE way to understand any Scripture... and MY way is that right way, so the rest of you are going to Hell in a hand basket."

You will at least agree that there is only one TRUE way, won't you? Let's all work together and, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, seek to find that true way as a unified body, rather than just having a slugfest. I realize that I have been a part of the problem at times. Please forgive.

 

[Sirk]

At this point in my walk, I do believe that it is eternal separation. And conscious at that. But I don't believe it is God "sticking" it to unbelievers. Or that He is the one punishing them. They are in their OWN torment.

I probably err if anything on that side as well. I certainly don't believe on the whole set on fire in agony picture.

 

[Sirk]

You will at least agree that there is only one TRUE way, won't you? Let's all work together and, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, seek to find that true way as a unified body, rather than just having a slugfest. I realize that I have been a part of the problem at times. Please forgive.

I think we can all agree here for the most part that no one gets to the Father but thru the Son. What gets people crossed up here is the defensiveness in some members and the moral high ground they take in their language when conversing.

 

[oyster67]

Ok so I pose this question once again to MsSusanna. Given that Jesus paid the price for all sin (I assume everyone here agrees on that) and the punishment for dying apart from Christ (in sin) is eternal concious damnation and torture. Why does it appear that Jesus got a get of jail free card in regards to the penalty of the sin he paid for being eternal damnation and torture? I think it's a legit question and for me, it is a glaring discrepancy in regards to the consistency and justice of God and the eternal hell fire doctrine.

If I was MsSuzanna, I would just say that it was not His sin that He died for. I'm not MsSuzanna, so never mind.

 

[Gr8grace]

I probably err if anything on that side as well. I certainly don't believe on the whole set on fire in agony picture.

I tend to agree with you. Christ speaks of differing degrees in the LoF. I don't think we have a very good picture of what it truly is.

23“And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24“Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.”

 

[Sirk]

If I was MsSuzanna, I would just say that it was not His sin that He died for. I'm not MsSuzanna, so never mind.

Well that would be an answer and I would accept that and probably ask a follow up question like......okay....but He was the sacrificial lamb and that was the whole point right? God needed a perfect sacrifice to save us. Nothing else will do. A perfect God must have perfect justice with no deviation.....right?

 

[kaylagrl]

This is just a sick video with someone's sick interpretation of what happens after death, the dead know nothing and I don't believe there is an afterlife, there is no proof of an afterlife, the rich man and lazarus is a parable, if you research you will see that many Christians say that death ends life, there is nothing after death for most people and that hell/sheol/hades is the common grave of mankind.

The only hellfire I can say exists is the cremation in mans crematorium.

But that is not what the Bible says.

 

[RickyZ]

So all those billions of people who read that word thousands of years ago, and also had no idea what it could possibly mean died while the hourglass of time waited for US to finally be born? Wow! That's better than Star Trek.

Synonym Discussion of element

element, component, constituent, ingredient mean one of the parts of a compound or complex whole. element applies to any such part and often connotes irreducible simplicity <the basic elements of geometry>. component and constituent may designate any of the substances (whether elements or compounds) or the qualities that enter into the makeup of a complex product; component stresses its separate entity or distinguishable character <the components of a stereo system>. constituent stresses its essential and formative character <the constituents of a chemical compound>. ingredient applies to any of the substances which when combined form a particular mixture <the ingredients of a cocktail>.


People (except apparently you) understand that element refers to the components of a bigger item. It is not limited in meaning to atoms and subatomic particles. Such as, vodka and orange juice are the elements that make up a screwdriver (and no I'm not talking about the metal thingy in your toolbox).

Big picture, Willie. You need to stop thinking in such a restrictive manner and instead think in terms of the BIG PICTURE. Could be why you have such a limited understanding of scripture.

Even Star Trek nerds understand this.

 

[kaylagrl]

That can never work.... because Scripture IS never anything but the opinion of the ones interpreting (reading) it, as I constantly point out with the Luke 14:26 reference.

So if the Bible is different according to ones own interpretation no can be 100% sure of the true message. We both can be right. Thats simply not possible nor plausible. We cant all be right.

 

[kaylagrl]

I think we can all agree here for the most part that no one gets to the Father but thru the Son. What gets people crossed up here is the defensiveness in some members and the moral high ground they take in their language when conversing.

So Sirk what do you do with Scriptures that talk about eternal damnation? How do you get around that?

 

[oyster67]

Well that would be an answer and I would accept that and probably ask a follow up question like......okay....but He was the sacrificial lamb and that was the whole point right? God needed a perfect sacrifice to save us. Nothing else will do. A perfect God must have perfect justice with no deviation.....right?

Sure. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. No hell time required.

 

[Willie-T]

So if the Bible is different according to ones own interpretation no can be 100% sure of the true message. We both can be right. Thats simply not possible nor plausible. We cant all be right.

Then you are willing to agree that what I say is right?

I didn't think so.

So, I have to agree your interpretation is right?

Maybe we do what the Catholics do, and believe the Pope?

What other answer than the one I gave would you suggest?

 

[oyster67]

That can never work.... because Scripture IS never anything but the opinion of the ones interpreting (reading) it, as I constantly point out with the Luke 14:26 reference.

(2Pet 1:20 [KJV])
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

(2Pet 1:21 [KJV])
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Willie-T]

(2Pet 1:20 [KJV])
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

(2Pet 1:21 [KJV])
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Scripture, not Prophesy.

 

[Gr8grace]

Well that would be an answer and I would accept that and probably ask a follow up question like......okay....but He was the sacrificial lamb and that was the whole point right? God needed a perfect sacrifice to save us. Nothing else will do. A perfect God must have perfect justice with no deviation.....right?

God didn't deviate from His Justice. From the beginning God required a unique person and a unique death to satisfy His Justice. And Jesus was that person and death.

For the wages of sin is death.......this is talking about Christ and His death. Not the consequences of man's sin and payment from fallen man.

Maybe this question will help? When did God ever say, " Someone needs to die AND be eternally tortured to satisfy my justice?"

The wages of sin was always the unique death, burial and resurrection of the unique person of Jesus Christ. He paid the wages of sin. This is why what is at stake is of an eternal nature.

Make sense? It does to me, but it may be a jumbled mess to others?

 

[Sirk]

Sure. Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. No hell time required.

But if the penalty is different for Him than what it would have been for us how does that fulfill the law?

 

[Sirk]

So Sirk what do you do with Scriptures that talk about eternal damnation? How do you get around that?

Thats a good question Kayla and I'm afraid I don't have a sufficient answer for you. Only more questions. What I can say is that eternal torment doesn't reflect the character of God that I know.

 

[RickyZ]

What I can say is that eternal torment doesn't reflect the character of God that I know.

Suppose I built a resort for homeless people. All I asked for their free use of it is that they stop and say thanks to me on their way in the door. That's it, say thanks and you're in, tell me to eff-off and you can go sit outside on the curb in the weather.

Am I really being evil to all those who chose to sit on the curb?

 

[Willie-T]

Thats a good question Kayla and I'm afraid I don't have a sufficient answer for you. Only more questions. What I can say is that eternal torment doesn't reflect the character of God that I know.

And it gets even more complicated when you study the word "eternal", and learn that it sometimes just means a long period of time, and not always "forever and forever."