Holiness or sinner

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes such were some of you and they converted and got set free and were not anymore. There were those that stayed in it, about those he had birth pangs again.

That's the gnostic spirit they're channeling that says once GOD cleans a person up, they can't get unclean again.

For if, [after they] have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these [things and] succumb to [them], the last [state] has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known [it], to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them. The [statement] of the true proverb has happened to them, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A sow, [after] washing herself, [returns] to wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2:20-22​

Derp!

 

[Grace777x70]

You are right..context is everything.

1 Cor 6:9-10 is talking about being in a condition...then verse 11 tells them who they are in Christ now.


2 different categories of people..believer = light unbeliever = darkness believer = righteous - unbeliever = unrighteous

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye ( believer ) not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness ( Believer ) with unrighteousness? ( unbeliever ) and what communion hath light ( believer ) with darkness? ( unbeliever )

Ephesians 5:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light ...be who you are in the Lord with your conduct here on this earth.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness

As usual,

You do not finish the passage,

1 Cor 6: [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

They did not clean themselves up. GOD CLEANED THEM UP!

 

[Grace777x70]

Birth pains?..how many times can some one be born?...I think you are getting things mixed up ...

Galatians 4:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


This is Paul saying that he is in travail for them so that these Christians would come from being under the law and stay in grace so that Christ who is in them could be formed on the outside of them in their behavior and thinking...renew their mind to who they were in Christ and rely on Him only and not themselves.

Gal 3:3 Having begun in the spirit are you so foolish to be made perfect by the flesh?

Paul called them "My little children",.he is their spiritual father and was praying for them and teaching them so that they would grow up in Christ..

..not to be born-again - again. ( that's "reading" into the scripture )

Yes such were some of you and they converted and got set free and were not anymore. There were those that stayed in it, about those he had birth pangs again.

 

[Grace777x70]

The whole chapter 2 in 2 Peter is talking about false prophets in verse 1...then in verse 9 Peter talks about the unrighteous ( the unbeliever )..then in verse 13..they are stains and blemishes ( believers have no spot or blemish because of Jesus..1 Peter 1:19 Eph 5:27 Eph 1:4 )..all through that chapter he is not describing a believer in Christ.

( and if this verse is talking about a believer...( which I don't believe it is ) does not say that they will lose their salvation...)

Here is something from mailmandan on 2 Peter 2:...there is a vast difference between having the "knowledge" of Christ and "receiving" Christ.


Quote: Mailmandan

2 Peter 2:20 - Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

*Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature," having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome. *Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature."

Corruption (Strongs #5356) (to shrivel or wither, spoil , ruin , deprave, corrupt , defile, to destroy by means of corrupting, to spoil as does milk). Corruption - describes decomposition or rotting of an organism and the accompanying stench. The utter depravity of the fallen flesh and the resultant moral decomposition of the world opposed to God is driven by it sinful lusts or evil desires. Internal corruption.

Pollutions/Defilements (Strongs #3393) ("pollutions", "filthy things", "contaminations", "world's filth") describes the state of being tainted or stained by evil and refers to impurity, impure, tainted, defilement, foulness or pollution. Pollutions/Defilement refers to what is on the outside (2 Peter 2:20). But genuine believers have escaped the "corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Peter 1:4).

*Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment.

 

[PeterJens]

Let us be plain and simple about this. Jesus makes us whole, He gives us love, wisdom, healing, power, victory, freedom from sin, a clean heart, a walk in grace, the gifts of the spirit, called children of God, people of the Kingdom of Heaven, His redeemed bride.

Yet satan runs round saying you sinner, you are still in sin, you are lost, there is no hope, look at this failure, or that mistake. How dare you call yourself people of God.

Now the we are lost except in Christ says, yes we are sinners, daily, weekly always sinning, but God looks at Christ alone, and all sin is dealt with so it does not matter. So people say your conscience is satan, avoid looking at the law or the sermon on the mount because it creates guilt, which is evil. Now two problems. If there is real sin, obvious blatent rebellion it needs repenting of, and stopping. Second problem if it is just perfectionism, it needs to be condemned for just putting mans standards on ones behaviour and not Gods. Now if you never talk openly about these issues people never learn the difference and continue to walk in condemnation with no freedom while pretending they are walking with Jesus.

Paul talks about living in purity, blamelessly because you can do it. Now I know this is the problem.
Everything flows from this belief, whether we have victory literally in Christ to overcome sin, or it is just adopted victory.

Now some have used the word malice. Malice is a desire to cause harm on another. No one intends harm on another but to just repeat the same answers which are just propoganda with no respect as to the others point of view is just not respecting the discussion or the subject or the people involved. It is like EG continually saying I am not saved because I can walk with Jesus, is just pointless. Accusing people of sin while having nothing is doing the work of the enemy.

If on the other hand you confess you commit sin constantly, and are not victorious, Peter declares you are not saved.

Now there is no malice here, this is what the word says. Either it is not sin, or you are not walking in Christ properly or you are still being sanctified with deep issues that need addressing.

I have been told constantly, we do not want to sin or walk in it. But then I ask, what are you talking about?
Silence. Some talk about anger issues. You need anger management, seeing Jesus and love, lots of exercises is why you angry, what the threat is, how you trust Jesus, who is in control etc. But to leave it alone is wrong.

This is like being in a hospital with people able to help but the patients refusing to admit there is a solution to their problems, while slagging off healthy people walking about enjoying the grace and mercy of God in their lives with freedom from sin.
And even stranger it is these people who claim wealth is a gift of God and physical health as well. But then without spiritual health you really need the other two to compensate the contradiction and failure.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

2 Peter 2:20 - Those who are truly born of God have received a new nature, a divine nature, and they have new and different appetites and desires. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20. *These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

This is Christian gnosticism showing its head. The belief that we are saved by our divine nature because divine nature is eternal and incorruptible. A sheep can never revert back to a pig even though it wallows in the mud. A sheep will be saved becasue it has become a sheep.

The gnostics thought that once the divine spark within was awakened through gnosis (special knowledge, correct "lens"), a person could never perish because he was an eternal spirit being that could never be corrupted by sinful practices of the body.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes such were some of you and they converted and got set free and were not anymore. There were those that stayed in it, about those he had birth pangs again.

They were washed, They were sanctified, and they were justified in the name of jesus.

why do you want to add to the word of God?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's the gnostic spirit they're channeling that says once GOD cleans a person up, they can't get unclean again.

For if, [after they] have escaped from the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and they are again entangled in these [things and] succumb to [them], the last [state] has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than having known [it], to turn back from the holy commandment that had been delivered to them. The [statement] of the true proverb has happened to them, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and “A sow, [after] washing herself, [returns] to wallowing in the mud.” 2 Peter 2:20-22​

Derp!

They wee sanctified, they were justified, they were washed in the name of Jesus.

Why do you want to call God a liar?

It does not say they stopped their sin, Or changed their lives, It says GOD CHANGED THEM!

Why do you resist the power of God?

And stop with your gnostic crap.

 

[coby]

Birth pains?..how many times can some one be born?...I think you are getting things mixed up ...

Galatians 4:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,


This is Paul saying that he is in travail for them so that these Christians would come from being under the law and stay in grace so that Christ who is in them could be formed on the outside of them in their behavior and thinking...renew their mind to who they were in Christ and rely on Him only and not themselves.

Gal 3:3 Having begun in the spirit are you so foolish to be made perfect by the flesh?

Paul called them "My little children",.he is their spiritual father and was praying for them and teaching them so that they would grow up in Christ..

..not to be born-again - again. ( that's "reading" into the scripture )

Yes I mixed 2 texts up. Birth pangs was with the Galatians. The Corinthians had all that fornication.

2 cor 12, 13

20*For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and*that*I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest*there be*contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults;*21*lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

This*will be*the third*time*I am coming to you.*“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”[a]*2*I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write*to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare—*3*since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.*4*For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

5*Examine yourselves*as to*whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.*6*But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

5*Examine yourselves*as to*whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.*6*But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.

I think that says it all.

Paul said to do it, James said to do it,

Not everyone in our churches are saved, Some claim to have faith, but they have no faith at all..

If you have no faith, your disqualified, because Christ death is only applied to those people who trust him.

 

[PeterJens]

I had a thought that for some will drive them nuts and others become an insight into reality.

I worked with a woman who had some deep seated need issues for support and understanding. She felt her husband did not understand. I knew them both quite well. It was obvious if they both expressed their needs all that would result was disappointment and rejection, which would compound the hurt.

Now in the same situation but with the Lords love working in both peoples lives, the showing of need can be met both by the Lord and by the other party expressing the love that is overflowing from their hearts out of the overflow of the relationship each has with God. Now much of the advances in understanding of what works in counselling situations and what does not is empowering to the gospel and the truth it brings. It shows the sermon on the mount works and super analysis does not.
Doing good things out of an appreciating heart is good for the soul, and rather than running away from the growing understanding of what we are and how we work, we should be embracing it and seeing Gods glory being declared.

A simple example of this is anxiousness, and facing emotion. A christian woman was driven nuts by anxious thoughts, which she resisted which made it worse into panic attacks and relationship breakdown. What worked was beginning to accept being anxious was natural, ok, just a feeling but was not a problem, and meant she should just be careful. She taught herself techniques to deal with stress, visualisation of safety, care, protection, and she could start living normally.

She had tried everything else, from demons, claiming victory in Christ, psychiatric drugs, ECT, counselling, but the approaching her emotions and changing her behaviour worked. For some here this is just too worldly, rather than declaring this is Gods world which he created so take possession of Gods given temple, who you are and how you work.

 

[coby]

1 cor 5

9*I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.10*Yet*I*certainly*did*not*mean*with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.*11*But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12*For what*have*I*to do*with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?*13*But those who are outside God judges.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yep...Paul is telling them that they shouldn't be doing those things that destroy them...nothing about losing their salvation and becoming "un-birthed " which is impossible.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Sin is destructive to ourselves, those we love and not a witness of the life in us in Christ to the world. we need to "awake to righteousness and sin not"

Examine yourselves was in context to make sure that they were indeed Christians...that they were "in the faith" and are in fact Christians...in every gathering there are saved and unsaved people..just like in our churches today.

Yes I mixed 2 texts up. Birth pangs was with the Galatians. The Corinthians had all that fornication.

2 cor 12, 13

20*For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and*that*I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest*there be*contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults;*21*lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced.

This*will be*the third*time*I am coming to you.*“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”[a]*2*I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write*to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare—*3*since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.*4*For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.

5*Examine yourselves*as to*whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.*6*But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.

 

[PeterJens]

How does God deal with people who need healing. "Stand up in the name of Jesus Christ"

The person then stands up, and God does the healing. Imagine if they say, no, not doing that.

Now God told us forgive, and you will be forgiven, do good works, give to the poor, stay faithful to your partner, do not commit adultery in your heart, do not get angry against you brother or sister etc.

But hey I am told, "you are doing the thing so it must not be of God, it must be of the flesh."
God tells us to do these things in faith, and He brings the healing of the soul. Now there are ideas I could have about the how or the why, but God does heal and change the situation. But if you do not do the things, you do not get the healing.

Now how many of the people here have confessed they tried to walk in these things but did not know God.
No faith, no healing. So when I testify about obedience I might be doing you a spiritual dis-service. Over time I have understood God makes us into a new creation, with new reactions, new ways of doing things. It is like where before hurts made us react one way, he brings healing and we react in a new way. But we have to exercise faith and obey.

This is why regression counselling fails because it relives memories and brings up trauma of the past, which emphasises the wounds. I have met people who are worse off after this counselling than before.

So it is little wonder those who tried to obey the law without the Spirit failed, because without God it is impossible.
Those who want to stomp on me for my lack of accepting Christs power in grace are wrong, it is they who are not exercising faith in Christs power to heal the heart and soul of a believer walking in faith as they obey the command.

What is our goal, to become whole people in the Kingdom, not broken lost sinners slaves to sin. So exercise faith obey and believe in healing.

 

[Grace777x70]

The "reviler" description means we wouldn't be able to be with some of the people on CC...lol

So, putting the "revilers" on "ignore" is scriptural then...the mods were right when they set up that option!

1 cor 5

9*I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.10*Yet*I*certainly*did*not*mean*with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.*11*But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12*For what*have*I*to do*with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?*13*But those who are outside God judges.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yep...Paul is telling them that they shouldn't be doing those things that destroy them...nothing about losing their salvation and becoming "un-birthed " which is impossible.

And there it is. Unrighteous conduct cannot jeopardize salvation, even though Jesus said:

​Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

Irenaeus (one of the earliest church fathers) said this about the gnostics who thought they could not become "unborn" and lose salvation because they were spiritual in nature and therefore incorruptible:

2. Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption [of sin], whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved.
​

 

[PeterJens]

Who are the people of faith? Those who believe Christ or those who say they fail to do what they are commanded to do?

I address you guys who in Christ find it impossible to love your enemies, your neighbour, your friends, to forgive, to forget, to believe God can heal those deepest wounds you have, and from many on cc they are unbelievably bad wounds, things I cannot imagine. You know Christ heals the body, but most important of all He heals the heart and soul. I know this because I have been healed, made whole, brought from a dark place into His wonderful light. Jesus died, literally died so that you might find this healing and wholeness. You just need to reach out and obey. He will do the rest.

Where failure happened when you had not faith, healing and victory will replace it. Where bitterness and pain were, love and acceptance will come to dwell. It is hard because we know how impossible in the past this was to do, but now you know Christ, who can hold you close, who you can lean on, who can make you new, so in Jesus Christs name, walk.

 

[coby]

Their lamps had gone out the original text says.
He didn't know them.

Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.*2*Now five of them were wise, and five*were*foolish.*3*Those who were*foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,*4*but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.*5*But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.

6*“And at midnight a cry was*heard:‘Behold, the bridegroom is coming;[a]*go out to meet him!’*7*Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.*8*And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us*some*of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’*9*But the wise answered, saying, ‘No,*lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’*10*And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.

11*“Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’*12*But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you

They're not all automatically saved, but who endures til the end:

Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.*12*And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.*13*But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

agape love will grow cold, only believers have that.

 

[coby]

Who are the people of faith? Those who believe Christ or those who say they fail to do what they are commanded to do?

I address you guys who in Christ find it impossible to love your enemies, your neighbour, your friends, to forgive, to forget, to believe God can heal those deepest wounds you have, and from many on cc they are unbelievably bad wounds, things I cannot imagine. You know Christ heals the body, but most important of all He heals the heart and soul. I know this because I have been healed, made whole, brought from a dark place into His wonderful light. Jesus died, literally died so that you might find this healing and wholeness. You just need to reach out and obey. He will do the rest.

Where failure happened when you had not faith, healing and victory will replace it. Where bitterness and pain were, love and acceptance will come to dwell. It is hard because we know how impossible in the past this was to do, but now you know Christ, who can hold you close, who you can lean on, who can make you new, so in Jesus Christs name, walk.

Love your enemies is easy. You can't do that but you can chose to and He does the rest. Better learn it from Corrie than like I did: years after a filthy divorce LOL.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3cfp51vLZb4

 

[coby]

Who are the people of faith? Those who believe Christ or those who say they fail to do what they are commanded to do?

I address you guys who in Christ find it impossible to love your enemies, your neighbour, your friends, to forgive, to forget, to believe God can heal those deepest wounds you have, and from many on cc they are unbelievably bad wounds, things I cannot imagine. You know Christ heals the body, but most important of all He heals the heart and soul. I know this because I have been healed, made whole, brought from a dark place into His wonderful light. Jesus died, literally died so that you might find this healing and wholeness. You just need to reach out and obey. He will do the rest.

Where failure happened when you had not faith, healing and victory will replace it. Where bitterness and pain were, love and acceptance will come to dwell. It is hard because we know how impossible in the past this was to do, but now you know Christ, who can hold you close, who you can lean on, who can make you new, so in Jesus Christs name, walk.

Healing of the heart is very important. I went to this kind of ministries:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9K75AvfyY