You made the accusations; you provide the evidence.
Or recant; it’s your choice.
Continue to dodge, and demonstrate your lack of integrity.
How do preachers or teachers explain this?
- Thread starter Godsgood
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Or recant; it’s your choice.
Continue to dodge, and demonstrate your lack of integrity.
Just because something happens to be true doesn’t mean we need to make a big deal of it. So no, we need not say anything at all about Joseph’s status.
Did I say anything about veneration of Mary?
No.
I merely noted the truth that Joseph was celibate while Mary was virginal.
YOU are the one making a big deal of it.
Mary's status is aka veneration.
Do you believe on Jesus? Are you doing greater miracles than He did?
Jesus was talking to a group of his specific disciples in the passage in john 14. there are three mentioned by name in this passage.
Mark 16 is a completely different promise. John 14 says you will do thing equal to and/or greater than Christ. Mark says:
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
You are comparing apples and oranges.
I did not say e would not receive spiritual gifts. I am saying our gifts are not promised to exceed that of Jesus or the apostles.
Not in dispute.
Well, again, I merely noted the truth that Joseph was celibate while Mary was virginal,
which obviously struck a nerve in you, I have no idea why.
In one thread, you said that we were not having a proper conversation like the one I had with DavidLamb. I said, “Okay, let us try,” and God knows how far the conversation will go.
Regarding John 14:12, the Lord Jesus said that all the things He does will also be done by those who believe in Him, and they will do even greater things.
JOHN 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
At one point, you said that the hermeneutical method is the proper way to understand God's Word. My question is: How would you explain and validate John 14:12 using the hermeneutical method?
My understanding of the phrase “Because I go unto my Father” is that Jesus was going to His Father. Therefore, His disciples who believe in Him would also do the works that He did, and they would do even greater works.
This is because, when He was already with the Father, He would no longer be physically present here on earth. The ones He expected to continue His work and accomplish even greater things were His true believers.
It is right to say that the Lord Jesus would never lie, because He is the truth. John 14:6 says, “I am the Truth.”
However, it seems that there is no one who can testify to the fulfillment of what the Lord said in John 14:12.
When the post is read in its entirety, the point relative to the greater works pertained to believers becoming instruments through whom people could experience the New Testament rebirth:
"After Jesus' ascension, believers carried out a greater redemptive work. Beginning in Jerusalem, they preached Christ's completed death, burial, and resurrection, called people to repentance, baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and witnessed people receiving the Holy Ghost (Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38; Acts 8; Acts 10; Acts 19). This ministry resulted in people experiencing the NT rebirth —something that could not occur before Jesus poured out the Holy Ghost."
I agree that Jesus' followers would continue His work after He returned to the Father. However, John 14:12 says the greater works would occur "because I go unto my Father." His going to the Father was more than His physical absence—it marked the completion of His redemptive work, His glorification, and the sending of the Holy Ghost (John 7:39; 16:7).
Before Jesus went to the Father, no one could experience the New Testament rebirth because His death, burial, resurrection, and glorification had not yet taken place. After He ascended, the Holy Ghost was poured out, and believers were empowered to preach the completed gospel, lead people to repentance, baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and see them receive the Holy Ghost. Through this ministry, people were born again and received eternal life. (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7...)
So the greater works were not simply that Jesus was no longer on earth and His followers took His place.
They were greater because His going to the Father made possible a work that could not be accomplished beforehand—the bringing of people into the New Covenant.
I never suggested that Jesus lied.
Jesus stated that believers would do the works He did. So that was a given. My point was about the greater works, than those He did that He mentions afterward:
JOHN 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
It was after Jesus ascended that the Holy Ghost was poured out making the NT rebirth a possibility for believers. The indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost is what empowered believers to preach the gospel, lead people to repentance, water baptize them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and see them receive the Holy Ghost. Through this ministry, people are born again and receive eternal life. (Acts 2:4-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7...)
I never suggested that Jesus lied. Evidently, Sawdust didn't understand the point I was making.
Jesus stated that believers would do the works He did. So that was a given. My point was about the greater works, than those He did that He mentions afterward:
JOHN 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
You need to recant your baseless accusations. We can’t have a “proper” conversation until you do.
For today or yesterday?:
Divided" - ie:
1) studying/asking: Who, What, When, Where, and Why? (hermeneutical method?) /
2) Biblical Reason: belongs to a Different Dispensation? ie:
God's Previous Context of:
"Prophecy/Covenants/Law" {earthly} Christ And The Twelve, gospel of the kingdom,
to: ISRAEL [Twelve tribes] prominent! {past/future}
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)
3) Does Not belong to Current Dispensation of 'infirmities'!:
"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Risen And Glorified Christ, Gospel Of GRACE, to:
One apostle, to: Jew And Gentile "Equal!" In The ONE Body Of CHRIST
(Romans - Philemon AV)
Conclusion: Thus, all of Confusion over the matter is solved, eh?
Amen.
Further review?:
UnScriptural or UNdispensational?
-----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Actually, it is Very Simple, When God's Word Of Truth Is prayerfully and Carefully studied "Rightly
Divided" - ie:
1) studying/asking: Who, What, When, Where, and Why? (hermeneutical method?) /
2) Biblical Reason: belongs to a Different Dispensation? ie:
God's Previous Context of:
"Prophecy/Covenants/Law" {earthly} Christ And The Twelve, gospel of the kingdom,
to: ISRAEL [Twelve tribes] prominent! {past/future}
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)
3) Does Not belong to Current Dispensation of 'infirmities'!:
"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Risen And Glorified Christ, Gospel Of GRACE, to:
One apostle, to: Jew And Gentile "Equal!" In The ONE Body Of CHRIST
(Romans - Philemon AV)
Conclusion: Thus, all of Confusion over the matter is solved, eh?
Amen.
Further review?:
UnScriptural or UNdispensational?
-----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
Sadly, you have only added to the confusion. Nothing about your post is clear, explanatory, or even rationally connected to the question.
Jesus' statement provided one and only one contrast: Jesus' own works (obviously prior to His ascension) and those of His followers (after His ascension). You have introduced concepts that have nothing to do with those two categories.
You may want to consider taking another look at post #82. It addresses the fact that the NT rebirth was not possible until Jesus returned to the Father, and shed forth the Holy Ghost.
God ordained that believers preach and assist in the essential elements associated with the NT rebirth that lead to eternal life. This would certainly be classified as greater works than physical healings, casting out demons, etc. (Luke 24:47, Matt.28:19, Mark 16:15-17)
Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 8:12-17
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:43-48
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 11:13-14
And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Acts 19:2-6
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were (water) baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Acts 22:14-16 (Paul's water baptism)
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Acts 8:35-40 (Eunuch)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea.
Acts 16:28-33 Jailer and family saved
But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
This is not rocket science. If they didn't do greater works than Jesus told a pork pie, ergo they must have done greater works. Just because you were not there to witness it and give it your seal of approval means diddly squat.
Thank you for your kind response regarding my attempt to clarify what I had wished to convey in my previous post.