How Does One Determine Who is Over Another in the Lord?

[Aaron56]

Just for scriptural reference, the writer of Hebrews records this:

"Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better."

and

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

Paul wrote this to the Thessalonians:

"And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake."

I was wondering about the typical Christian perspective on the grace to rule and lead among the saints. Are you more likely to accept someone's leadership position based upon their education, number of missionary trips, or hours of Bible study... their knowledge of Koine Greek and Hebrew perhaps? Do you examine their life as a whole? Whether or not they have a certain degree or title? Or perhaps you think none are over others in the Lord and leaders a simply responsible for the administration of church gatherings and functions. Lastly, perhaps you believe only you, yourself, must give an account to God for your soul and no one else.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Are you more likely to accept someone's leadership position based upon their education, number of missionary trips, or hours of Bible study... their knowledge of Koine Greek and Hebrew perhaps? Do you examine their life as a whole? Whether or not they have a certain degree or title?

Hello Aaron, typically, I accept someone's leadership position in a church based solely upon the fact that they are the one who presently holds the position that they are in (pastor/elder/deacon/etc.), as long as they acquired their position fairly/honestly and according to the rules that had been established (unless I am part of the leadership and/or committee that is tasked with finding a suitable candidate for a certain position in church, of course, and if that's the case, then yes, I would make sure that all of the candidates are properly/thoroughly vetted concerning most or all of the things that you mentioned above, and more).

.....perhaps you think none are over others in the Lord and leaders a simply responsible for the administration of church gatherings and functions.

I respect those in leadership positions in church and follow their lead (unless I sense that some kind of problem could/would result from doing so, of course).

Lastly, perhaps you believe only you, yourself, must give an account to God for your soul and no one else.

The Bible tells us that 'we' will have to give an accounting to God (at the end of the age) for everything that 'we' did, said and thought (or failed to do or say) in this life, but where does the Bible tells us that we will have to give an account to God for someone else's life, or that they (on the other hand) will have to do so concerning us

Hebrews 13:17 tells us that the Lord's undershepherds (our pastors and elders) will have to give God an accounting, but this accounting to Him will be concerned with ~their~ work, the work that they did on our behalf as our pastors/elders, ~not~ with the work that we did.

IOW, our undershepherds, who were tasked by the Lord to watch over souls, will be held accountable by Him for the work that He called them to do on our behalf (when we were under their charge and care during our lives here).

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Hebrews 13​

17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. ​

.

 

[timf]

Hebrews 13 17 Obey your leaders and submit to them

A better translation might be, "Stop resisting and allow yourself to be persuaded by those you have agreed to follow"

This comes to an end when one has matured in the faith such that "leaders" are often seen as immature, mistaken, or misled themselves. One can beat the bushes trying to find a useful nugget or two of truth, but in the marketplace of Christianity it is getting harder and harder to find that which helps us become more like Jesus.

 

[GWH]

A better translation might be, "Stop resisting and allow yourself to be persuaded by those you have agreed to follow"

This comes to an end when one has matured in the faith such that "leaders" are often seen as immature, mistaken, or misled themselves. One can beat the bushes trying to find a useful nugget or two of truth, but in the marketplace of Christianity it is getting harder and harder to find that which helps us become more like Jesus.

Yes, in God's kingdom "slavery" is voluntary, which means it operates by consensus or mutual submission (Eph. 5:21).

 

[Suze]

I think a good measure of authority would b how long someone has been a Christian and , that they have very good Bible knowledge . Of course this isn't fallible , a man who hasn't been a Christian as long as a woman has and who maybe doesn't know his Bible as well as all the women , will of course b allowed to have authority over them just because he is a man . So , the men in authority had better know their stuff ! When I did go to church , it was very very very frustrating to me ( and to others I'm guessing ) to have to listen in silence to a brother who was saying things that were incorrect , and not b able to say anything to him ( in private of course ) . We women have a lot to put up with . Thankfully it didn't happen often .

 

[ResidentAlien]

Those who are over others are the shepherds or overseers. However, they aren't over anyone in the sense of being above them or domineering. As the name suggests, they shepherd and lead; they have oversight. As Peter says:

"Therefore, I urge elders among you, as your fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and one who is also a fellow partaker of the glory that is to be revealed: shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not with greed but with eagerness; nor yet as domineering over those assigned to your care, but by proving to be examples to the flock." 1 Peter 5:1-3​

So for me, I consider someone to be "over" me if 1) They have proven they actually care about me; 2) Have demonstrated their own spirituality in the Lord; and 3) They don't act like they're above me.

 

[OMC]

"Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better."

and

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."

Paul wrote this to the Thessalonians:

"And we urge you, brethren, to recognize those who labor among you, and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake."

I was wondering about the typical Christian perspective on the grace to rule and lead among the saints. Are you more likely to accept someone's leadership position based upon their education, number of missionary trips, or hours of Bible study... their knowledge of Koine Greek and Hebrew perhaps? Do you examine their life as a whole? Whether or not they have a certain degree or title? Or perhaps you think none are over others in the Lord and leaders a simply responsible for the administration of church gatherings and functions. Lastly, perhaps you believe only you, yourself, must give an account to God for your soul and no one else.

God appoints real, accountable leaders among the saints, and their authority is measured neither by degrees nor by résumé but by divine calling, observable character, and faithful labor.
Hebrews 7:7 establishes the principle — the lesser is blessed by the better, meaning God actually orders His people through men He places above others; Hebrews 13:17 applies it directly — these men “watch for your souls as those who must give account,” which means someone besides you will answer to God for how they shepherded you.
Paul reinforces the same structure in 1 Thess 5:12–13: recognize those who “labor among you,” who are “over you in the Lord,” and “admonish you,” and esteem them highly for their work’s sake, not for their credentials.
Scripture never ties leadership to education, travel, Greek proficiency, or institutional titles; it ties it to Spirit‑given grace (Acts 20:28), tested character (1 Tim 3:1–7), sound doctrine (Tit 1:9), and visible fruit (1 Pet 5:2–3).
Nor does Scripture flatten the church into pure administrative equality — elders actually “rule” (1 Tim 5:17), shepherds actually “lead” (Heb 13:7), and saints actually submit (Heb 13:17).
And no, Scripture never teaches that only you give account for your soul; shepherds will answer for how they guarded it, and you will answer for how you responded to them.

 

[Aaron56]

A lot of good responses. I appreciate them.

Many Christians I meet are members of the “Just me and Jesus” club - unwilling to receive Biblical shepherding and leadership for anything other than Sunday and Wednesday building administration and the occasional potluck. I see this primarily as a failure of the leadership but I’m no longer shocked when a religious institution continues on after their lamp stand has been removed by God.

 

[Dino246]

Good thoughts so far.

I consider it unfortunate that the OP included Hebrews 7:7 as I think it muddies the water regarding authority to lead. Melchizedek is a special case.

Scripture is clear on the qualifications for human leaders within the local church, and they emphasize Christian character and maturity, not education, titles, or experiences. However, these days in the Western world, it is rare to encounter someone who has been elevated to a leadership role without some formal training and/or significant experience, at least for more senior roles. Deacons and elders are more likely to be without formal training, but their responsibilities are usually not quite what is described in Scripture because we have also elevated the role of "pastor" to the most senior position.

I suggest that "submission", "obedience" and "humility" are often misconstrued as passive acceptance of whatever the "leaders" offer, no matter how inadequate it is. A 40-minute sermon once a week is not enough to foster vigorous growth. Leaders *should* be taking an active interest in the lives of their flock, offering instruction generally but specific guidance when requested. At the same time, they should be strongly encouraging the flock to seek the Lord on their own: to read, study, pray, and apply the scriptural lessons to their lives, and share those experiences with the rest of the flock to edify them all.

For as long as I have been a Christian, I have viewed church leadership with skepticism regarding their authority, because I have seen that authority abused many times. In my local church I highly respect the man who is in the lead pastor role (and the people in other roles) but they feel no need to exercise authority "over" me. I accept their leadership but also feel free to speak my mind. The relationship is mutually supportive rather than hierarchical.

To the title question of the thread, and with respect to the OP, I think the question is fundamentally misguided. We should not be concerned with who is "over" or "under" but we should serve one another in love. When the question of leadership positions and roles comes up, we would ideally use Scripture as our pattern and "promote" those who have demonstrated that they are qualified according to that pattern.

 

[God-fearing]

I believe that one should not esteem one above another. But all work towards the heart of the Lord.
All ministries are equally important that develop with in the church.
By one being seen as leader he should listen to the concerns of others and bring it before the elders in prayer and council.
All must submit to the higher authority which is Christ Jesus.
The goal of any church is to be in one accord with Jesus in spirit and truth.

 

[Watchman22]

A lot of good responses. I appreciate them.

Many Christians I meet are members of the “Just me and Jesus” club - unwilling to receive Biblical shepherding and leadership for anything other than Sunday and Wednesday building administration and the occasional potluck. I see this primarily as a failure of the leadership but I’m no longer shocked when a religious institution continues on after their lamp stand has been removed by God.

There are only two types of Christians, those perfecting saints, and those being perfected by saints. Eph. 4:10-13

My personal experience , God brought me, or called me to faith. Once I began that continually surrendered life , things started to happen. Spiritual awakening and such. One of those happenings was the strong desire to find a Bible teacher or someone who could validate and explain the happenings i was experiencing. After looking at dozens of teachers, one stood out like a light in the darkness. Validating and explaining the things that were happening. This particular teacher, I never met or saw in person. But what came out of his mouth was like God speaking directly to me through him. That is what I considered to be my gifted teacher.


Fast forward 38 years, even though he has graduated, I still consider him to be my gifted teacher. Because of his commitment to perfecting saints, I'm able to stand on his shoulders and see beyond what he was able to see, ahead on the narrow path.

That is the only gifted teacher I've ever known. And one is all we really need.

 

[Watchman22]

A lot of good responses. I appreciate them.

Many Christians I meet are members of the “Just me and Jesus” club - unwilling to receive Biblical shepherding and leadership for anything other than Sunday and Wednesday building administration and the occasional potluck. I see this primarily as a failure of the leadership but I’m no longer shocked when a religious institution continues on after their lamp stand has been removed by God.

And the title OP is misleading.

The gifted teachers by nature are lower than us that are being perfected, not above us.

 

[Cameron143]

I think it's an excellent question and worthy to be considered on its own merit, without the addition of related questions. It is particularly relevant to me as in my church we have begun a leadership class preparing for the next generation of church leaders.
Just for quick background, nearly 30 years ago, 5 families in a Thursday night Bible study were led to begin a church. Only 3 families remained committed, and following the Lord's leading, a church began.
For my part, the church has provided all that I was looking for. I desired a place to help raise my family in the fear and admonition of the Lord, as well as be a place we could worship in Spirit and Truth.
Many of the challenges for the next generation of leadership will be different than those we faced beginning the church, but one that will certainly be the same is where spiritual authority rests. It is a most important question. Otherwise, just as in Israel when Joshua died there arose a generation that knew not the Lord, so too will our church lose its lampstand, and languish in religious ritual void of light, and life, and power.