How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[ewq1938]

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Total KJV occurrences: 90

G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4134
Citing in TDNT: 6:286, 867

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Dancing and prancing around scripture will only make you go in circles.

It was made crystal clear that these Saints in Thessalonica were in tribulation greatly being persecuted unto death.

Not only that but since the Apostle Paul understood OT Prophecy, he wrote these words to Thessolinica:

All you're doing is wrenching the convo AWAY from the point, which pertained to the certain TIME PERIOD when:

--"the man of sin be revealed"; and
--the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / advent / presence / parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME";

(i.e. when "the man of sin" will exist on the earth doing ALL he is slated to DO over a very specific, future, LIMITED *time period*... the time period UNDER DISCUSSION, in those two posts [mine responding to Runningman's particular point, on that])

...which I think you AGREE that he/the man of sin was not "revealed" way back IN THE FIRST CENTURY... right? Do you??



IOW, the convo he and I were engaged in had to do with THAT FUTURE TIME PERIOD... per what Runningman's point was, regarding same... in his last paragraph (which I quoted) from his Post #3287 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707614





For some reason you feel the need to obscure that fact, and wrench the convo away from its context (which context my response pertained to, specifically). Why do you feel the need to do this?






[in many past posts I've pointed out how even the Thessalonians back then were experiencing "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" 2Th1:4--but Runningman and I were not covering THAT point in the posts I am referring to]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

i suggest you re-examine your own words/post #3205 in the Light of Scripture because 'they ain't right Brother'.........especially your last paragraph on Matthew 8:5-12

Read again Matt 8:10-12

When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came and pleaded with Him, 6“Lord, my servantc lies at home, paralyzed and in terrible agony.”
7“I will go and heal him,” Jesus replied.
8The centurion answered, “Lord, I am not worthy to have You come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell one to go, and he goes; and another to come, and he comes. I tell my servant to do something, and he does it.”

10When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
13Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you.” And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Your post is in no way helpful to me, in aiding my grasp of how what you've quoted above DIFFERS from what I put in my Post #3205 (as you suggest it differs).

Perhaps you could take a moment to explain how you understand this passage DIFFERENTLY to what I put regarding it (and yes, I was taking the ENTIRE passage into view, when I referenced "Matt8:11 and its parallel" in my Post #3205).

Maybe start with telling us how you are defining the following phrases in the above text:

--"many shall come from the east and the west" refers to "who"??

--the phrase "shall sit down [one word in the Greek - G347 (the word I pointed out) - anaklithēsontai - meaning "recline," and is "of those reclining at table and at feasts" (i.e. at a meal)... and "in the last two passages [Matt8:11 and Lk13:29] used figuratively of participation in future blessedness in the Messiah's kingdom"]... means "what" INSTEAD, to you according to how you see it? (how does your view differ from MINE, on this point?)

--"in the kingdom of the heavens" refers to "what," in your understanding?

--"the sons/children of the kingdom" (who will be "cast out into outer darkness") refers to "who" specifically, according to your view?




How is what you posted (basically just quoting the text) DIFFERENT to what I said in my Post #3205 (in your view)??
Coz I'm not seeing your point.

 

[DavidTree]

All you're doing is wrenching the convo AWAY from the point, which pertained to the certain TIME PERIOD when:

--"the man of sin be revealed"; and
--the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL / advent / presence / parousia" of the man of sin "IN HIS TIME";
(i.e. when "the man of sin" will exist on the earth doing ALL he is slated to DO over a very specific, future, LIMITED *time period*... the time period UNDER DISCUSSION, in those two posts [mine responding to Runningman's particular point, on that])
...which I think you AGREE that he/the man of sin was not "revealed" way back IN THE FIRST CENTURY... right? Do you??

OW, the convo he and I were engaged in had to do with THAT FUTURE TIME PERIOD... per what Runningman's point was, regarding same... in his last paragraph (which I quoted) from his Post #3287 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707614

For some reason you feel the need to obscure that fact, and wrench the convo away from its context (which context my response pertained to, specifically). Why do you feel the need to do this?

[in many past posts I've pointed out how even the Thessalonians back then were experiencing "persecutions and tribulations YE ENDURE" 2Th1:4--but Runningman and I were not covering THAT point in the posts I am referring to]

The Apostle Paul who was filled with the Holy Spirit, wrote the things that were revealed to Him from Scripture, by the Holy Spirit.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

Paul wrote with CLARITY of the Scriptures concerning the LORD's Second Coming which he knew from the Prophets, namely Daniel.
And this is why Paul said this:


What was shown to Daniel from God? Daniel chapter 7 of course.

Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.

“I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them,
until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

"that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know."
1 Thess 3:1-5

Paul knew of the coming of the Antichrist from the visions given to the Prophet Daniel

This is why Paul wrote again to the Thessolinica Saints a SECOND Letter and said:

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

 

[GaryA]

It would be very strange to set the theme of a passage and then never cover the theme. I think it imperative that Paul cover the theme since he said that was what he was going to discuss: "concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him..."

Wouldn't it be strange, after writing those words, that Paul never got around to talking about the coming and the gathering?

The first verse is "a [beginning/starting] reference point" for the discussion. The second verse indicates the 'purpose' of the discussion. The third verse transitions to the 'focus' of the discussion - which is the "falling away" and the man of sin.

 

[GaryA]

To be sure, when the rapture happens, the Holy Spirit will have few people left on earth through whom He can work.

Why would you think there would be any? They would have all been raptured...

 

[GaryA]

My friend, I did not do so, John did. It was JOHN in Revelation that shows us the start of God's wrath as in the start of the DAY of His wrath, before he starts the 70th week. That causes the entire 70th week to be inside God's wrath. That means every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath. That means every plague comes with His wrath. John backs this up by showing us each plague has a vial filled with His wrath.

Man tries to separate God's wrath from Satan's wrath through human reasoning, but it won't work: John is very clear in Revelation that while Satan's wrath is at its peak in the murdering of saints, God will pour out the vials of His wrath to shorten those says of GT. In other words, Revelation shows us that God's wrath and Satan's wrath are simultaneous.

Just to set the record straight, "postrib" in Revelation would be after the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. I think you need more study!

I think you need more study...

The 'Wrath of God' is the vials.

With careful study, you should discover that the sun/moon/stars part of Matthew 24:29 - that is 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days" - aligns with the Trumpet Events and the Two Witnesses (who cause those things to come about).

The Trumpet Events are post-trib and pre-wrath.

 

[GaryA]

The common misunderstanding about a 7 year GT comes from Dan. 9:27, which talks about a covenant that will be confirmed for seven years. This verse teaches that the abomination of desolation (AOD) will occur halfway through the 7 year period. Jesus said that that the AOD would mark the beginning of the GT (Matt. 24:15-21). From these verses we know that the GT only lasts for three and a half years.

Beyond the first sentence, there is very little truth...

 

[ewq1938]

The first verse is "a [beginning/starting] reference point" for the discussion. The second verse indicates the 'purpose' of the discussion. The third verse transitions to the 'focus' of the discussion - which is the "falling away" and the man of sin.

Keep in mind he thinks the falling away is the rapture and that Strong of the Strong's concordance "fibbed" or lied when he said the word apostasia means defection from the truth. I wonder if he thinks every Greek dictionary and concordance were also fibbing? It's a conspiracy against pre-trib!

Thayers:
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88


I wonder if Abbott-Smith, Liddell and Scott, and Winer's Grammar are also fibbing??




Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament

Apostasia

defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.







Liddell and Scott:

A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God , apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .





Winer's Grammar:



Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

 

[GaryA]

There is no 7 year period mentioned in Revelation.

There is no prophetic End Times 7-year period mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

 

[GaryA]

The very first revelation from God about the book of revelation came while I was reading Daniel 9:27. When my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" God suddenly spoke:

"You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."

I was instantly "in the Spirit" and could not answer. But my spirit man asked: "How would I find that?" He answered my question.

"Every time I mentioned an event that would begin at the midpoint and go to the end of the week, I always included the 3 1/2 year period of time. When you find the mentions of the 3 1/2 years, you will be very close to the exact midpoint. In fact, you could find the entire week 'clearly marked.' "

I searched diligently through chapters 11 to 13, where we find five mentions of events that start at the midpoint and countdown to the end of the week. Each mentions the 3 1/2 year period of time. I found that God uses 7's to mark the start of the week, the midpoint and the end: the week begin at the 7th seal, the midpoint is marked by the 7th trumpet, and the week ends at the 7th vial.

I don't think I missed finding what He sent me to find.

I must seriously doubt that God told you any such thing...

 

[ewq1938]

There is no prophetic End Times 7-year period mentioned anywhere in the Bible.

Can you comment on what I presented to runningman?

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707586

 

[GaryA]

There is no clear verse showing how long Jesus' ministry was. It could have been for 3.5 years. Was it? Since no scripture tells us, it is only a guess.

Scripture does tell us - but, it has to be counted - from the baptism of Jesus to the cross of Calvary...

 

[GaryA]

Can you comment on what I presented to runningman?

https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4707586

I do not believe that the GT is 3.5 years.

 

[Mii]

Hmm, I choose to limit myself to posting on 2 threads today...and indeed I didn't even plan on logging in but a few caught my eye lol.


I saw another poster in another thread on this topic say he can see pre, mid, post and indeed I have seen people use scriptures to support each one. I can see a view that has no rapture at all except Christ's return (and what goes along with that) returning with those previously dead in Christ and then the supper, marriage, MK, etc.

Or whatever the order is...my memory is foggy right now. I simulate a lot of what if scenarios and feel as though I'm prepared somewhat. Ideally the best is leaving before anything "really" bad happens globally. What about all the martyrs throughout history though? What about John the baptizer? Do you think anyone really "wants" to go through gruesome torture and equally gruesome deaths for the Lord? There's no way their flesh does leastways.

Since I constantly battle my flesh and its desires, I don't expect the conclusion to this to be in any way easy regardless.

Tomorrow sounds good to me, though I'd still like to know what having a wife is like. Certainly willing to forgo that, maybe there is procreation in the MK? hard to say.


I believed mid-trib all my life. It just "was". It's how scripture just made sense to me since I was young. Idk why really, because when I start to really "try" and take a look it's like an ever shifting dream.



Clearly it's not like that for some of you...but what if you're wrong? What then? What if you are literally blinded to the truth of it because the truth is that no one knows entirely? Each of us may have the bits and pieces we need, but does anyone truly want to state that "they" have all the answers? To the point where you could justify shutting someone down or causing discord? I think not.


Perhaps you do. Why then don't I? Why then doesn't every believer understand it incredibly clearly after sometimes decades of study? Why is it shrouded in mystery?

"Oh, but if you only read it this way...then you'd understand"
"Oh, clearly you are intentionally warping scripture to suit your own agenda and the truth is not in you!!!"
"umm...it already happened. This is eternity. wake up" (Note: I don't in any way agree with preterism)


It gets old to be honest. All the dreams I've ever had suggest serious physical "spillover" from the spiritual is impending and as it ramps up I don't have time to debate stuff like this or even theorize really. I don't know "when" and focusing overmuch on it leads to negative behaviors for me.

I actually get ticked off in my impatience to the point of anger against the Lord to the delay. Which does bring up the "How long, Lord" verse in Revelation. Which didn't ever make sense to me. His timing isn't mine. There are times when that is extremely challenging lately when it used to just be resolute acceptance. When I couldn't understand even seeming impatience by the saints in heaven.


I may (probably) be rambling a "tad" here but it just irritates me that no one "really" seems to know. That we have SO many different opinions and that consensus in the Spirit seems to not be the Lord's will at this time. Frustrating, but the reason for that is a little more clear to me after typing this. Not crystal...it's more clear though


Each view gives a person different motivations. If it produces a lukewarm licentiousness...probably it needs some looking at.

If it produces a self-righteous "wise in your own eyes" mentality...probably needs some looking at.

If it provides you with peace that surpasses all understanding and "still" ends up being wrong as time unfolds...


Then the verse in Job "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. He also shall be my salvation..." 13:15-16a


Have a blessed week.

 

[ewq1938]

I do not believe that the GT is 3.5 years.

You could still answer what Christ meant about shortening the days of Great Tribulation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your post is unreadable.

Besides being reminiscent of this ^ , your post below saying this:

Keep in mind he thinks the falling away is the rapture and that Strong of the Strong's concordance "fibbed" or lied when he said the word apostasia means defection from the truth. I wonder if he thinks every Greek dictionary and concordance were also fibbing? It's a conspiracy against pre-trib!

Thayers:
G646
ἀποστασία
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

I wonder if Abbott-Smith, Liddell and Scott, and Winer's Grammar are also fibbing??

Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament
Apostasia
defection, apostasy, revolt; in late Gk. (MM, Exp., viii; Lft., Notes, 111; Cremer, 308) for cl. ?p?stas?? , freq. in sense of political revolt, in LXX (e.g. Joshua 22:22, 2 Chronicles 29:19, Jeremiah 2:19) and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3.

Liddell and Scott:
A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God , apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .

Winer's Grammar:
Apostasia, a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ; ((Joshua 22:22; 2 Chronicles 29:19; 2 Chronicles 33:19); Jeremiah 2:19; Jeremiah 3629) 32 Complutensian; 1 Macc. 2:15). The earlier Greeks say Apostasis; see Lob. ad Phryn., p. 528; (Winer's Grammar, 24).

... makes me wonder why, when making your point, you did not emphasize the part of Winer's Grammar that says this:

[re: the Greek word "apostasia," under discussion] Winer's Grammar: "The earlier Greeks say Apostasis"

... which is the same point that some editions of "Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon" ALSO say regarding this word, when they write, [re: "apostasia"] "later form for apostasis"

I wonder if Abbott-Smith, Liddell and Scott, and Winer's Grammar are also fibbing??

Of course they aren't lying / fibbing... they are pointing out how the words are used in various places; but not every resource has every detail about it... some have more listed under their entries than other resources do... some are very limited...

... but for some odd reason you do not happen to like the listing found in "Liddell and Scott's" 1871 edition (which I have a hard copy right before me and have posted links to it in the past [see below])...

...as well as what "Winer's Grammar" just said in the quote you put above (both of these resources saying the SAME thing about how "apostasis" is the older form for the very same word "apostasia" ("apostasis - a standing away from [away from a previous standing]...[...] or, "2. departure or removal from" or "3. distance, interval"... one listing even says "disappearance" [I forget which edition of L&S shows this particular entry, atm]).








[again, for the readers: the context determines "WHAT KIND" of departure is meant. In 2Th2:3, "a departure FROM MOSES" is not the subject, as it IS in Acts 21:21... due to the qualifying words "FROM MOSES" accompanying the Greek word under discussion in Acts 21:21 but not here (and here in 2Th2:3 it also has the "definite article ['the']" used with it)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to add: Here's what I put in a Post #32 of a different thread back in September (from "Winer's Grammar"):

Post #32 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660657


[quoting]

"A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament: Regarded as a Sure Basis" by George Benedikt Winer (pgs 24-25):

"d) Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded: as [...] apostasia (apostasis, Lob. p. 528), [...]"



[found on pgs 24-25]

-- https://books.google.com/books?id=i7kC8UOe-4cC&pg=PA24&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true


[end quoting from source; underline mine]



____________

The word we are discussing is in his long LIST of words which fall under the category he is describing in that quote, above ^ .

 

[ewq1938]

... which is the same point that some editions of "Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon" ALSO say regarding this word, when they write, [re: "apostasia"] "later form for apostasis"

So? Those are two different words that are related but still have different definitions.


Liddell and Scott:
A defection, revolt, v.l. in D.H.7.1, J.Vit.10, Plu.Galb.1; esp. in religious sense, rebellion against God , apostasy, LXX Jo.22.22, 2 Ep.Th.2.3 .

Do you agree with Liddell and Scott that Apostasia means " in religious sense, rebellion against God" or will you make up your own personal definition for the word and "depart" from what Liddell and Scott say the word means? All the dictionaries agree that Apostasia means defection from the truth and is a religious rebellion against God.

 

[Runningman]

Beyond the first sentence, there is very little truth...

Okay. Care to elaborate?

If you show me something else, I will check it out. I will cross reference whatever you say against my own knowledge and a study of the scriptures. That's what I always do. I'm not opposed to changing my views either. I do that readily if I am given something compelling enough.