A
Ariel82
Guest
But you mentioned a difference between arrogance and immaturity....how exactly can you tell? They appear very similar.
How To Tell If...
- Thread starter Stunnedbygrace
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Novices and being lifted up in pride are mentioned, a novice would also be considered someone who was new or immature wouldnt it?
Are mushrooms fruit?
The context of shaking the dust off the feet is in relation to doctrine. If the household or town in Matt.10 wouldn't hear the disciples words (teaching, doctrine) the truth regarding the Lord Jesus Christ, they were to shake the dust off, which was kind of an insult in that culture, and head for another city.
There are many passages regarding 'fruit', with different contexts. The passage in Matthew 7 is referring to false prophets. Again, doctrine.
(lifestyle too, of course, should line up with ones teaching, but is not as readily discernable, as the false prophet is a wolf disguised in sheep's clothing. They can SEEM nice enough, but they distort or even deny the truth of the gospel.)
A good tree (true prophet) can't bring forth evil fruit (false teaching) and a corrupt tree (false prophet) can't bring forth good fruit (true doctrine) We as believers are told that we shall know them (true or false prophets) by their fruits (doctrine and faith).
"By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not : for with such sacrifices God is well pleased." Heb. 13:15-16
Jesus said, by their actions, not by their doctrine.
And I take actions to mean how they act.
No one has perfect knowledge and we can't expect them to.
And it isn't a stretch to think that if we can tell a bad tree by its bad fruit then we should also be able to tell a good tree by its good fruit.
(And with that, I also don't think the fruit is doctrine.)
But I have no problem if you disagree with me that when Paul said I want to see some spiritual fruit from you, he wasn't talking about the doctrine he taught them. I'm fine with being disagreed with.
Yes, and if you read my posts in total, I wasn't saying if I have one grumbly afternoon then the Holy Spirit isn't guiding me or teaching me.
Yes, outward appearances can be deceiving to us. But we can quite easily spot and see impatience, lack of kindness when our toes are stepped on, annoyed rather than longsuffering facial expressions, arrogance in replies, the holding of grudges, self regard, etc. People can playact, sure, but we are all very good at spotting insincerities and falsity. We've all spent a lifetime figuring out what people mean, not what they say.
In reality per God's Word though, at the end of Isaiah 28 is God's blueprint on how to teach His Word, in addition to what Apostle Paul taught. And Paul taught to rebuke when it is called for...
Titus 1:10-14
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
KJV
So if you're going to try and establish rules for God's people as teachers, then you must be on equal par with Apostle Paul, which clearly you are not.
You mean when I said immaturity looks different than arrogance masquerading as love?
I'm going to have to think about how to explain that...but the immature can be easily pulled back into carnality. Their flesh is easily stirred up. But they are uncomfortable by it. They know if it has devolved, they've gone wrong somewhere. They most often apologize for their behavior and then leave.
Arrogance masquerading as love, not taught by the Holy Spirit, begins right off the bat in arrogance and carnality and the Holy Spirit doesn't check them. They don't get pulled into carnality - they are the source of it. They go on and on in the same way and if anyone tries to speak with them about the way they are speaking, they cannot hear it. You never see improvement in gentleness and love because the Holy Spirit is not guiding them - their flesh is guiding them. If you try to tell them - it isn't what you are saying, it's how you are saying it, they can't hear you. They will insist their arrogance and anger are them loving the other person when their arrogance and anger is defensive. They are not sharing what the Holy Spirit is teaching them, they are defending what men have taught them.
I'll think about it more and see if I can come up with a clearer way of saying it and maybe some examples.
Bedtime.
This has little to do with doctrine and is more about how they speak and act, even with someone they disagree with.
Just want to be clear, which passage are you referring to where Jesus said ' by their actions, not by their doctrine ' ?Jesus said, by their actions, not by their doctrine.
And I take actions to mean how they act.
No one has perfect knowledge and we can't expect them to.
And it isn't a stretch to think that if we can tell a bad tree by its bad fruit then we should also be able to tell a good tree by its good fruit.
(And with that, I also don't think the fruit is doctrine.)
But I have no problem if you disagree with me that when Paul said I want to see some spiritual fruit from you, he wasn't talking about the doctrine he taught them. I'm fine with being disagreed with.
Also, a reference was made earlier to Matt 7 and fruit, and there its a warning about false prophets/teachers. Doctrine. Their bad fruit is what they falsely teach or prophesy. But fruit has different meanings depending on the context and the scripture passage. I did not pick up on Paul's reference to desiring spiritual fruit in another passage, I'm sorry if I scanned past the posts. Surely fruit is many things in scripture, doctrine being one, also behavior, our speech, our growth in grace and knowledge , etc. It's all dependent on context.
(BTW, as an aside, I notice a lot of people using the word 'ect' in their posts. I'm not sure what that means, but if it's meant as an abbreviation for et cetera, I was taught that it's 'etc.' but I may have to stand corrected, or does 'ect' mean something else? )
Yeah. I love God's Word. And I love to talk to others who love God's Word. Sometimes attitudes get in the way and it's hard to see/hear the Word of God when contentions arise.We get it right sometimes. And we leave here crying at the loveliness of our Lord in each other and are so encouraged.
I love the verse in Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
How many people find sustenance for life in the Word of God? Do we feed on it and, allow God's Word to bring nourishment to our hearts and souls?
Paul also said And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will (2 Timothy 2:24-26).
If all we are doing is rebuking sharply, where is the instruction in meekness?
If all we are doing is instructing in meekness, where is the sharp rebuke?
There must be a balance between rebuking sharply and instructing those that oppose themselves.
Also, the verses in Titus relate to those who are bishops (overseer, a man charged with the duty of seeing that things to be done by others are done rightly, any curator, guardian or superintendent). How many here have been appointed as a bishop (as opposed to self-appointed)?
The verses in 2 Tim 2 relate to those who are servants (Greek doulos) of the Lord. A doulos is one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men.
We might be witnessing the doulos acting as a bishop. Is this proper? [shrug] Just an observation and something to ponder ...
A
Ariel82
Guest
To be a good leader one must first learn to follow. For if you are not following Christ, then where are you leading others?
A
Ariel82
Guest
What is good fruit? Heard so many different answers....
Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, peace), good works, New converts/ disciples for Christ, good doctrine and many more.
Makes me wonder perhaps it depends on the Bible verses used to refer to fruit?
Kind of how salt can be a good...giving flavor or bad....making water undrinkable.
Just rambling,
Another thought is that Jesus tells us to increase our faith by learning to be humble and meek.
Fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, patience, kindness, gentleness, self control, peace), good works, New converts/ disciples for Christ, good doctrine and many more.
Makes me wonder perhaps it depends on the Bible verses used to refer to fruit?
Kind of how salt can be a good...giving flavor or bad....making water undrinkable.
Just rambling,
Another thought is that Jesus tells us to increase our faith by learning to be humble and meek.
I happen to think that "OUR" fruit is the effects we have on the lives of others. A man might seem to be gruff and stern to someone who needs to be petted, but if that same man has reached some tough street thugs for Christ because he related to them as they actually live, and they responded because of what they deemed honest reality, then I see that as a huge basket of good fruit.
How to tell if the other dummies have met the same Lord you have...
Instead of that furrowed brow and the "I'm gonna make this work" attitude...
They have an amazed and slightly confused look. You mean I don't get there by trying to be a really good person??? Can this be true Lord? I just stop trying so hard and rely on you, solely?
So do you have it all figured out yet? Yep, this is how its done. Nope. You can't instruct someone how to have complete faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. My faith isn't going to look exactly like yours. I have different problems that are no big deal to you, and vice versa. We were broken differently. But the Lord is the only One who has the perfect ability to put all the pieces back together, perfectly.
If you rely on other half blind dummies to put your pieces where they think they belong you won't end up looking like the vessel you are intended to look like.
Its fun talking about what the Lord has done and still does for us, though. And trying to figure out which one of us is dumbest.
Instead of that furrowed brow and the "I'm gonna make this work" attitude...
They have an amazed and slightly confused look. You mean I don't get there by trying to be a really good person??? Can this be true Lord? I just stop trying so hard and rely on you, solely?
So do you have it all figured out yet? Yep, this is how its done. Nope. You can't instruct someone how to have complete faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. My faith isn't going to look exactly like yours. I have different problems that are no big deal to you, and vice versa. We were broken differently. But the Lord is the only One who has the perfect ability to put all the pieces back together, perfectly.
If you rely on other half blind dummies to put your pieces where they think they belong you won't end up looking like the vessel you are intended to look like.
Its fun talking about what the Lord has done and still does for us, though. And trying to figure out which one of us is dumbest.
Yes, my fingers meant to say etc, not ect.!
BTW, I have jumped right into conversation with you without saying hi and it's nice to meet you, even though I don't think I've run across you yet in here except one other time. Hi, nice to meet you!
The passage I'm referring to is where Jesus talks about trees and fruit, and at the end of it He says, just as you can know a tree by its fruit, so you can know men by their actions. I use NLT, so if you go to look it up, that might help. Not sure how it's worded in other translations.
I see the connection your mind made. I see how you arrived at it. It isn't crazy or incomprehensible, and I do see what you say here. I do not see fruit as doctrine but rather as the other things you mentioned. We just see that differently. The verse at the end of His teaching on fruit is a big part of why I see it that way. But the biggest part is that...I've seen men present their belief in a systematic and logical way and have agreed with it mostly. I would say, their doctrine is sound. And yet, they are rude, petty, self honoring and lacking in love and gentleness. They appear to not have the Spirit leading them at all. So, this is why looking at their doctrine to see if they are my brother doesn't work. They could have wonderful doctrine but if it's without love, they have nothing, as Paul said. He said one could have all knowledge, but without love, they have nothing.
As to where Paul says he is eager to visit and wants to see some spiritual fruit from them, also NLT, so could be worded slightly different in your translation. It's definitely at the beginning of an epistle, not the end.
Amen..Willie!
The problem comes when we try to fit each other in the same box that we are in. We all have different functions in the body of Christ.
When we try to "force" others to become like our "bodypart" - we get into error and our spirit within us does not witness to the coercion that is trying to be applied to us because it is "not what we are supposed to be doing."