I don't understand

[kenallen]

Hello Ken Calvinism essentially teaches that God will punish those who refuse His offer of salvation when that offer was never made to them -or for them- in the first place. Calvinism teaches that all does not mean all, in places where Scripture says things like: Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Where the Bible says that God desires none to perish, for all to be saved, for all to repent and come to knowledge of the truth, Calvinists will say that only applies to the elect, and the rest be damned. Line by line and precept by precept, I do not believe God to be/have the character Calvinists refuse to accept they make God out to be. They say that God ordains everything. Not just as in allowing things to happen as they do, due to the free agency of mankind, but actively causes them. That would mean they believe God causes murderers to murder and rapists to rape and pedophiles to... you get the drift. I do not believe God actually does that. I believe that in living devoid of Godly principles guiding one's life choices, people are drawn into deviancy, perversion, and all manner of sin that God did not cause or make happen at all. I believe God desires all to repent and be saved. I believe the promise given in Scripture, that if one seeks sincerely, God will reveal Himself. Now we know God also knows people are not seeking Him, and yet people do seek truth, which is embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who is Himself Truth, and the way to the Father, Who accepts all who repent of their rebellion, defiance, and dereliction toward Him. We are already forgiven in Christ, Who paid the sin debt, which is sufficient for all but efficacious only for those who by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ are reconciled to God.

2 Peter 3:9

I take from what you say that calvinism does not really follow the bible, the bible says that all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. but then you read the parable of the sower some fall on rocky ground and never grow, never get saved other fall in the weeds they grow but get chocked out by the cares of the world and then you have the seed that falls on the good soil and brings forth fruit. Here is what I thank I got saved, it is up to me everyday to choose if I want to follow God or not, I choose to follow God I slip and say something I should not say, have a thought I should not have ect. I ask God to forgive me and try better the next day. Where does that put me?

 

[kenallen]

Precious friend, I'll be honest that I have not studied much and made sense about
the "elect," but:

I also thank God for the "Noble Bereans" and use His verse for me as rule # 4 in
Bible study rules.

Please be Very RICHLY Encouraged and Edified in your own Daily search For Truth.
In the simplest terms of God:

GRACE And Peace...

 

[kenallen]

thanks

 

[Magenta]

I take from what you say that calvinism does not really follow the bible, the bible says that all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. but then you read the parable of the sower some fall on rocky ground and never grow, never get saved other fall in the weeds they grow but get chocked out by the cares of the world and then you have the seed that falls on the good soil and brings forth fruit. Here is what I thank I got saved, it is up to me everyday to choose if I want to follow God or not, I choose to follow God I slip and say something I should not say, have a thought I should not have ect. I ask God to forgive me and try better the next day. Where does that put me?

I would say that puts you among believers I would also say that people who are
not saved, generally speaking, do not concern themselves with whether or not they are.
That is to say, non-believers do not believe not just in God, but in heaven/hell etc etc.

 

[kenallen]

I'd rather liken it to a game of chess

I don't want to play a game of chance either

 

[Magenta]

I don't want to play a game of chance either

I do not liken "the universe" or life to chess in that it is a game of chance. Chess actually requires much knowledge and skill.

I have likened life to a chess board, with our self will juxtaposed against God's omniscience, for there are only so many possible moves at the beginning of any game, and each move in turn eliminates a number of choices. At any given moment, God is aware of the moves that are open to us, and as we make another choice, again, He is aware of the moves that remain available to us. He sees every possible end to the game at every single move, from the beginning to the end. That He sees the end throughout does not mean He is dictating our moves

 

[kaylagrl]

Hello Ken Calvinism essentially teaches that God will punish those who refuse His offer of salvation when that offer was never made to them -or for them- in the first place. Calvinism teaches that all does not mean all, in places where Scripture says things like: Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Where the Bible says that God desires none to perish, for all to be saved, for all to repent and come to knowledge of the truth, Calvinists will say that only applies to the elect, and the rest be damned. Line by line and precept by precept, I do not believe God to be/have the character Calvinists refuse to accept they make God out to be. They say that God ordains everything. Not just as in allowing things to happen as they do, due to the free agency of mankind, but actively causes them. That would mean they believe God causes murderers to murder and rapists to rape and pedophiles to... you get the drift. I do not believe God actually does that. I believe that in living devoid of Godly principles guiding one's life choices, people are drawn into deviancy, perversion, and all manner of sin that God did not cause or make happen at all. I believe God desires all to repent and be saved. I believe the promise given in Scripture, that if one seeks sincerely, God will reveal Himself. Now we know God also knows people are not seeking Him, and yet people do seek truth, which is embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who is Himself Truth, and the way to the Father, Who accepts all who repent of their rebellion, defiance, and dereliction toward Him. We are already forgiven in Christ, Who paid the sin debt, which is sufficient for all but efficacious only for those who by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ are reconciled to God.

2 Peter 3:9

Excellent post, you hit the nail on the head. When the Bible says all it means all. I don't know why people complicate it so much. You have the simple truth of the Gospel and you are dead on sister!

 

[kenallen]

So true, So true

 

[kaylagrl]

It's not about the Father choosing who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Everyone is condemned because we are all sinners. The choices for God are 1: He condemns everyone and we all go to hell. That would mean that God has no mercy. 2: He saves everyone and we all go to heaven. That would mean that there is no law and order and no justice in the Father's kingdom. 3: the Father saves an elect few throughout human history.
I'm going to post a lot of Scripture on Election. You read it and make up your own mind.

There is a 4th "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved".

 

[kenallen]

I like that " Until God opens the next door, praise Him in the hallway

 

[Magenta]

Excellent post, you hit the nail on the head. When the Bible says all it means all. I don't know why people complicate it so much. You have the simple truth of the Gospel and you are dead on sister!

Thank you, Kayla

 

[kaylagrl]

I take from what you say that calvinism does not really follow the bible, the bible says that all that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. but then you read the parable of the sower some fall on rocky ground and never grow, never get saved other fall in the weeds they grow but get chocked out by the cares of the world and then you have the seed that falls on the good soil and brings forth fruit. Here is what I thank I got saved, it is up to me everyday to choose if I want to follow God or not, I choose to follow God I slip and say something I should not say, have a thought I should not have ect. I ask God to forgive me and try better the next day. Where does that put me?

It puts you where we all are, under the blood. We all make mistakes, we all slip. We ask forgiveness and then it is remembered against us no more. Then the next day we try again. As you mature in Christ you will find yourself slipping less and less.

 

[kaylagrl]

I like that " Until God opens the next door, praise Him in the hallway

Thank you, God sent that little verse to me when my husband was out of work. Then God brought him a job that is literally a couple miles from our doorstep. He could walk there. It pays well, he has a Christian boss. More than we could have hoped for.

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I do not believe the pool shot so I guess I am not a calvinist I just want to be a christian

Besides gambling abounds at those pool halls. The stakes are too high for me.

 

[awelight]

Hello Ken Calvinism essentially teaches that God will punish those who refuse His offer of salvation when that offer was never made to them -or for them- in the first place. Calvinism teaches that all does not mean all, in places where Scripture says things like: Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Where the Bible says that God desires none to perish, for all to be saved, for all to repent and come to knowledge of the truth, Calvinists will say that only applies to the elect, and the rest be damned. Line by line and precept by precept, I do not believe God to be/have the character Calvinists refuse to accept they make God out to be. They say that God ordains everything. Not just as in allowing things to happen as they do, due to the free agency of mankind, but actively causes them. That would mean they believe God causes murderers to murder and rapists to rape and pedophiles to... you get the drift. I do not believe God actually does that. I believe that in living devoid of Godly principles guiding one's life choices, people are drawn into deviancy, perversion, and all manner of sin that God did not cause or make happen at all. I believe God desires all to repent and be saved. I believe the promise given in Scripture, that if one seeks sincerely, God will reveal Himself. Now we know God also knows people are not seeking Him, and yet people do seek truth, which is embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who is Himself Truth, and the way to the Father, Who accepts all who repent of their rebellion, defiance, and dereliction toward Him. We are already forgiven in Christ, Who paid the sin debt, which is sufficient for all but efficacious only for those who by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ are reconciled to God.

2 Peter 3:9

Now, now - Magenta - You should know this is not what Calvinism teaches:

QUOTE: "Calvinism essentially teaches that God will punish those who refuse His offer of salvation when that offer was never made to them -or for them- in the first place..."

The Gospel is preached indiscriminately before all. But Calvinism differentiates between the General Call of the Gospel and the Effectual Call of the Gospel. Or, if you will, between the unprepared soil hearing the Gospel and the PREPARED soil hearing the Gospel.

When one only hears the General Call of the Gospel, it is because the "seed" falls on unprepared soil. An Unregenerate person, who is still dead in trespasses and sin. Therefore, this one only remains for a short season. before this one will whither away because this one's heart is not in it.
When one clearly hears and understands the Gospel, it is because the "seed" fell on prepared soil. The Regenerated person, who possesses a new heart and a tender conscience. This person will endure till the end.

If one follows Calvinism and proclaims it was never offered in the first place - which they really should not proclaim - because the word "offer" carries the wrong connotation. Salvation is not truly "offered" to anyone. It is proclaimed and God accomplishes it's saving work. God is the one who prepares the soil (heart). Mankind's fallen nature (heart, soil), will not properly Sanctify until it is prepared.

 

[birdie]

I have been reading the bible discussion about the elect there are so many ideas what is true and what is not. One person said all that are saved are Gods elect another said they came from the first earth age because they stood with God in the war that was between God and satan. I am not sure just what to believe and where to go and find out. I thank the best advice I have gotten on this site was to be like the people of Berea. They heard the teaching of Paul and then west home and searched the scriptures to see if it was so. Can someone lay it out in simple terms for me.
Love you all in The Lord KenA

There is not a special set of super Christians who are elect, whilst other Christians are not elect. All Christians are spoken of in the Bible as 'the elect'. They are called that because God's choice was for them to be saved. He elected them to be saved. That is his business. He is in control of who he saves, since it is by his action a person comes to believe on him. He gives them the ability to hear the good news of the gospel and to believe on him for salvation. When we read scriptures like: "for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened " it means for those who are saved those days shall be shortened. Since mankind was cut off from hearing God due to sin, it takes a sinless man Jesus dying on the cross to take away our sin to allow us to have the Spirit of God given to us so that we can hear him again and have a relationship with him. So that we can trust him. If we have come to believe on him for salvation, thank him for the gift of being elected into his family.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Salvation is not truly "offered" to anyone.

Since eternal life is a free gift of God's grace (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8,9), and gifts are offered freely, salvation is indeed offered to the whole world (Isa 45:22). The very fact that God the Father "gave" His Son to the world because of His great love and mercy (Jn 3:16) speaks of someone and something being "offered". That is what grace is all about.

When anyone denies what God Himself affirms, he or she is treading on thin ice.

 

[Evmur]

I have been reading the bible discussion about the elect there are so many ideas what is true and what is not. One person said all that are saved are Gods elect another said they came from the first earth age because they stood with God in the war that was between God and satan. I am not sure just what to believe and where to go and find out. I thank the best advice I have gotten on this site was to be like the people of Berea. They heard the teaching of Paul and then west home and searched the scriptures to see if it was so. Can someone lay it out in simple terms for me.
Love you all in The Lord KenA

Election is so simple to understand . God chose you, isn't that the most wonderful news you ever heard?

 

[Evmur]

It's not about the Father choosing who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. Everyone is condemned because we are all sinners. The choices for God are 1: He condemns everyone and we all go to hell. That would mean that God has no mercy. 2: He saves everyone and we all go to heaven. That would mean that there is no law and order and no justice in the Father's kingdom. 3: the Father saves an elect few throughout human history.
I'm going to post a lot of Scripture on Election. You read it and make up your own mind.

how about 4 God chose a select band [us, the church] to be the instruments of His salvation to the world through the preaching of the gospel.?

Election is to be the church ... it does not exclude anybody from being saved.

 

[awelight]

Since eternal life is a free gift of God's grace (Rom 6:23; Eph 2:8,9), and gifts are offered freely, salvation is indeed offered to the whole world (Isa 45:22). The very fact that God the Father "gave" His Son to the world because of His great love and mercy (Jn 3:16) speaks of someone and something being "offered". That is what grace is all about.

When anyone denies what God Himself affirms, he or she is treading on thin ice.

We must be sure we are on the same page here. When one says: The Gospel is offered to all. What does one mean by this?

If one means, the Gospel is offered indiscriminately to all - as in "proclaimed before all", then I agree. This is the role believers have in God's Salvation Plan. Preachers - preach it to all. Believers - witness to all.

If one means, the Gospel is offered to all - as in "Salvation is offered to all", I disagree. You will never find, in any good translation, the idea that Salvation is being offered to everyone or anyone. Indeed, you will not find a single verse of Scripture, that uses the word "offer or offered", related to one's Salvation. The Greek words translated "offer or offered", are related to Sacrifices of the OT or the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and a few other references, such as meats being offered to idols.

In the KJV, the English word "offer" - is used 17 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times.
In the KJV, the English word "offered" - is used 28 times, in the New Testament. In the NASB - 18 times, often translated "sacrifice" instead.

Once again - Nowhere, is the word "offer or offered", used in relationship to one's Salvation. The Gospel, is to be proclaimed to all indiscriminately. The non-elect, will not believe what is heard and the elect will hear the message and believe because they hear the Truth therein. The Sheep hear the voice of the Great Shephard and will not follow another. This is a PROMISE from our Lord - to His Sheep.

I ran across this in my research. I think it is well stated:

"The good news of the gospel is offered (Proclaimed) freely to all people without distinction. Some “high” Calvinists have objected to this doctrine on the grounds of God’s sovereign election, the doctrine of the particular atonement, the primacy of divine initiative, and the sinner’s complete inability to respond in faith apart from God’s regenerating grace. However, the reality is that sinners are all called to believe and are judged for their unbelief, not for whether or not they are elect. It is actually within the context of the universal refusal of man to believe that the doctrines of election, the atonement, and the sovereign initiative of God are most needed. These doctrines provide the solution to man’s refusal, not a reason to avoid the "proclamation" of the gospel in the first place."