I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

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blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
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Please provide any proof that the Catholic church sanctions worship of Mary. You're opinion is not good enough since I sincerely doubt you are a Christian
You joined just today, and you can already ascertain who is christian and who isn't? Wow, that's a nifty psychic power you have there..lol.. Catholics pray to Mary, they ask her to intercede on their behalf to Jesus. They bow down to statues of her. That is idol worship. They use rosaries and pray hail Mary's. We are NOT to pray to Mary, we are to pray to JESUS, and Jesus ONLY. The bible says "no man comes to the Father, but by me." Meaning Jesus. It does NOT say no man comes to the Father but by MARY. lol :rolleyes:
 
Nov 7, 2015
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You joined just today, and you can already ascertain who is christian and who isn't? Wow, that's a nifty psychic power you have there..lol.. Catholics pray to Mary, they ask her to intercede on their behalf to Jesus. They bow down to statues of her. That is idol worship. They use rosaries and pray hail Mary's. We are NOT to pray to Mary, we are to pray to JESUS, and Jesus ONLY. The bible says "no man comes to the Father, but by me." Meaning Jesus. It does NOT say no man comes to the Father but by MARY. lol :rolleyes:
I've been a guest for weeks now. Your opinion is not proof. Please provide proof
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
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You joined just today, and you can already ascertain who is christian and who isn't? Wow, that's a nifty psychic power you have there..lol.. Catholics pray to Mary, they ask her to intercede on their behalf to Jesus. They bow down to statues of her. That is idol worship. They use rosaries and pray hail Mary's. We are NOT to pray to Mary, we are to pray to JESUS, and Jesus ONLY. The bible says "no man comes to the Father, but by me." Meaning Jesus. It does NOT say no man comes to the Father but by MARY. lol :rolleyes:
I've been a guest for weeks now. Your opinion is not proof. Please provide proof

That isn't my opinion. It's a biblical FACT, one YOU'RE not willing to believe.. You should read your bible, ya might learn something such as, "thou shall have no other gods before me" (including Mary). And "no man comes to the Father but by me." Words straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ. :) These are biblical proof, so accept it.
 
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That isn't my opinion. It's a biblical FACT, one YOU'RE not willing to believe.. You should read your bible, ya might learn something such as, "thou shall have no other gods before me" (including Mary). And "no man comes to the Father but by me." Words straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ. :) These are biblical proof, so accept it.
Hmmmmmm still no proof from the Catholic Church doctrine? Not surprising
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
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Hmmmmmm still no proof from the Catholic Church doctrine? Not surprising
Unlike you, I'm not a deceived catholic. I'm a Christian with the truth of God within me. :) Oh and btw, Kiss is a satanist group, so your avatar marks you as a troll..lol..
 
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Unlike you, I'm not a deceived catholic. I'm a Christian with the truth of God within me. :) Oh and btw, Kiss is a satanist group, so your avatar marks you as a troll..lol..
lol, you probably ran records backwards too
 

blue_ladybug

Senior Member
Feb 21, 2014
70,869
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lol, you probably ran records backwards too
Sorry, don't know how to do that, and wouldn't even if I did..lol.. I'm not a satanist. I'm a christian.. I know that concept is foreign to you so I will say it slowly: I..AM.. A..CHRISTIAN.. :)
 
Nov 7, 2015
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Sorry, don't know how to do that, and wouldn't even if I did..lol.. I'm not a satanist. I'm a christian.. I know that concept is foreign to you so I will say it slowly: I..AM.. A..CHRISTIAN.. :)
Really? With such a condescending attitude ? BTW 2 jews a lutheran and presbyterian do not make a satanic band! LOL
 
Jul 4, 2015
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This Kiss73 is what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary.

1. Mary's immaculate conception. The Catholics teach Mary was born without sin.

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

God says nobody is Righteous. If nobody was Righteous then Mary was not Righteous and was a sinner.

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

God clearly says here Kiss73 that ALL have sinned and all also means Mary was a sinner. Mary was born a sinner and Mary died a sinner Kiss73.

2. Mary as Mediatrix. The Catholics teach Mary is our Mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

Jesus Christ only is our Mediator Kiss73, not Jesus and Mary like the Catholics teach.

3. The Catholics give Mary powers of omniscience and omnipresence. With these powers given to Mary the Catholics teach Mary can hear and answer our prayers to her.

Only God has omniscience and omnipresence, Kiss73. To say Mary has these powers is saying that Mary is God.

Therefore yes, the Catholics do Worship Mary as God. Also Pope John Paul II had no problem with bowing down to statues of Mary.

The Hail Mary Prayer is a prayer the Catholics Pray to Mary. Praying the Rosary is also praying to Mary.

So the answer Kiss73 is yes, the Catholics do Worship Mary as their god.

Because of their Worship of Mary, the Catholics cannot enter into Heaven because Worshiping Mary is Idolatry and no Idolater can enter into Heaven.

Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
Nov 7, 2015
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This Kiss73 is what the Catholic Church teaches about Mary.

1. Mary's immaculate conception. The Catholics teach Mary was born without sin.

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

God says nobody is Righteous. If nobody was Righteous then Mary was not Righteous and was a sinner.

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

God clearly says here Kiss73 that ALL have sinned and all also means Mary was a sinner. Mary was born a sinner and Mary died a sinner Kiss73.

2. Mary as Mediatrix. The Catholics teach Mary is our Mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus

Jesus Christ only is our Mediator Kiss73, not Jesus and Mary like the Catholics teach.

3. The Catholics give Mary powers of omniscience and omnipresence. With these powers given to Mary the Catholics teach Mary can hear and answer our prayers to her.

Only God has omniscience and omnipresence, Kiss73. To say Mary has these powers is saying that Mary is God.

Therefore yes, the Catholics do Worship Mary as God. Also Pope John Paul II had no problem with bowing down to statues of Mary.

The Hail Mary Prayer is a prayer the Catholics Pray to Mary. Praying the Rosary is also praying to Mary.

So the answer Kiss73 is yes, the Catholics do Worship Mary as their god.

Because of their Worship of Mary, the Catholics cannot enter into Heaven because Worshiping Mary is Idolatry and no Idolater can enter into Heaven.

Galatians 5:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Won't dialogue with you since all you spew is propaganda
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Sorry, don't know how to do that, and wouldn't even if I did..lol.. I'm not a satanist. I'm a christian.. I know that concept is foreign to you so I will say it slowly: I..AM.. A..CHRISTIAN.. :)
You are caricaturizing people who play Hard Rock.

As a former Heavy Metal musician, I can assure you I was not a Satanist. While my lifestyle was without question godless, that is a far cry from overt worship of Satan.

In regards to KISS, I never listened to them because I was under the impression that they were in fact Satan Worshippers, and when I finally heard them, their music wasn't much, a little wimpy, I thought, and not much more than simple Rock and Roll.

But they were definitely smart. There is a saying, "Controversy sells." And they sold a lot of records.

While we would all agree that any music that glorifies anything but Christ can be viewed as satanic, I have heard far worse "messages" in Country music than the average KISS songs.

So speaking as one who knows a little bit about Hard Rock, and some of the players involved, I would suggest you not caricaturize people when it is not warranted. And I am not saying that I endorse any Hard Rock or Heavy Metal bands, because I don't endorse any music these days that does not glorify Christ. At this point the first band I would recommend would be Casting Crowns, who themselves on their latest album got a little heavy with "Until the Whole World Hears." They have a habit of writing songs that have a great message, as well as stepping on the toes of believers, lol.

One song I would recommend is "If we are the Body."

We do God an injustice when we caricaturize people, in my view, and before we do, we should know a little bit about them.

Then give both barrels...

;)


God bless.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Nobody else was given the title "Full of Grace" or "highly favored"
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:
"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).

(Robertson, II, 13)​
Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies astate granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:
Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .

(Kittel, 1304-1305)​
Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):see more here
Nobody else was given the title "Full of Grace" or "highly favored"
In John 1:14, Jesus is said to be full of grace and truth, (not just full of grace.). And "Full of Grace" was not a title Mary was given.

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

Even if we agree that the grace given to Mary was not because of her merit, does that give Mary special status?
Apart from Luke 1:28, is there any verse that gives Mary special status?


In my opinion, the fact that God "endowed" Mary with grace, was because he had to bring forth the Messiah, Jesus. So the special one is Jesus. The highlight is on Jesus, not on Mary. There are thousands of other verses that would agree that Jesus was the special one.


Where in the Bible is it written that Mary was given grace since her conception? And where is it written that she had no Original Sin? You will only find these concepts in catholic writings.


Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):see more here

All the verses mentioned say that grace is needed to overcome sin. Nowhere does it say that grace makes a person sinless. So how could grace, (even being full of grace), make Mary sinless? These seem like assumptions.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; [Matthew 11:11]Nowhere did Jesus lift up Mary, the way he lifted up John the Baptist. Just see the honor given the the humble John the Baptist!
If we were to follow the catholic way of doing things, we should be venerating John the Baptist and praying to him as well. I'm sure dogmas about the sinlessness of John the Baptist can be incorporated somewhere in the catholic writings. If John the Baptist, being the forerunner, would be made mediator, I'm sure the average catholic would have no problem, as long as it is written in the catholic writings somewhere.
Please excuse my sarcasm. I love my catholic friends and relatives to death. That's why I am saddened by their blind belief.
 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; [Matthew 11:11]Nowhere did Jesus lift up Mary, the way he lifted up John the Baptist. Just see the honor given the the humble John the Baptist!
If we were to follow the catholic way of doing things, we should be venerating John the Baptist and praying to him as well. I'm sure dogmas about the sinlessness of John the Baptist can be incorporated somewhere in the catholic writings. If John the Baptist, being the forerunner, would be made mediator, I'm sure the average catholic would have no problem, as long as it is written in the catholic writings somewhere.
Please excuse my sarcasm. I love my catholic friends and relatives to death. That's why I am saddened by their blind belief.
The Lord is not stating John is sinless, but the greatest of Old Testament Prophets.

Catholics range in their views of Mary, from simple acknowledgement of Mary's prominent role as the woman chosen to bear the Lord, to viewing her as Co-Redemptrix. Unfortunately, the Catholics that usually show up on forums debating those who caricaturize Catholics and make them all worshippers of Mary tend to make the mistake of exaggerating their views merely because they have been offended by those who caricaturize all Catholics.

Can't say I blame them, because the same thing is done by Atheists, for example, of Christians. To the Atheist...all Christians are the same. Doesn't matter if they are Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, they caricaturize Christians and assume they all believe the same thing.

Is that the truth?

For example, do all Baptists believe tithing is a New Covenant standard? Do all Reformed Theologians believe that babies go to Hell? Do all Charismatics believe that ecstatic speech is the Gift of Languages?

The answer is no, not all believe the same thing, and we have to know what they believe before we take them to task for whatever belief it is we perceive them to be in error on. If we impose beliefs on people who do not actually believe them, we are simply name-calling.

I am opposed to a number of Catholic Doctrines, but that doesn't mean I assume all Catholics know what that Doctrine actually is. They are no different than any other group, many of their adherents are nominal in their understanding of the actual Doctrine itself.


God bless.
 
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Its you who are teaching propaganda Kiss73.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Titus 2:12 says nothing about redeemed sinner being full of grace (kecharitomene) FULL of grace means more than just grace.
God gives each person the amount of grace required by him or her; the amount of grace is upto God.
If Mary was "full of grace" it just means that she was "highly favored" as the one to bear the Messiah, just as Noah was favored to build the ark. Everyone, including you and me are apportioned different amounts of grace in order to bring about the purposes of God.

God does not show favouritism, or he is not a respecter of one person over another.
We need to stop overemphasizing this one phrase, "full of grace," in order to make something spectacular out of an ordinary "handmaid of God"

I don't understand "kecharitomene" as I speak English. Also, I do not make scholarly writing and interpretations the basis of my faith. The Bible is enough for me. Yes, I will dig deeper into what kecharitomene means.

FULL of grace means more than just grace
Says who, and where?

 
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P1LGR1M

Guest
Hmmmmmm still no proof from the Catholic Church doctrine? Not surprising
Well, KISS73, I for one am truly sorry you have been banned, as I would have enjoyed looking at Catholic Doctrine with you, and feel that there are areas which not only make for great discussion, are issues that both sides get the chance to learn a little bit about each other.

It's been a couple forums since I have had the chance to do this, so if there are any other Catholics willing to discuss Doctrinal Differences and Distinctions, let me know.


God bless.
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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With all due respect to the admins, I would like to say that I am saddened when someone is banned. Wonder why Kiss73 got banned!
 

onlinebuddy

Senior Member
Sep 1, 2012
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Agreed, but you are operating under a false priority assumption. God is the focus of the Mass, and you will have to listen very closely for Mary's name, it's mentioned once in the creed (the same as in any Protestant church that accepts creeds) and once in the intercessory prayers. Check out a Mass sometime and see for yourself. All this Mary Mary Mary from anti-Catholics gets a bit tiresome.

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I agree that there is hardly any mention of Mary during the Mass. However, Mary seems to have replaced Jesus in the personal lives of the average catholic. I know this from personal experience. I know of the emphasis placed on Mary during the daily Angelus that is said at twilight, during the rosary prayed at night and during novenas prayed during certain feasts.

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.[Lk 14:26]
Jesus want's first place in our lives. He never shared that first place with Mary or the apostles or the prophets or anyone else!!! It is highly impossible that He changed his mind later.
In the verse above, Jesus is telling us that it is not healthy (spiritually) for us to put anyone above him. So it is for our own spiritual wellbeing that we give Jesus first place in our lives.
If we reflect on the words of the Angelus, it is Mary-centric, with a little bit of Jesus thrown in, in between. The same can be said about the novenas and the rosary.
 
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