Then you claim that Jesus did not die at the time that sacrificial lambs were killed? You are also claiming that Jesus was crucified in 31, but in 31 CE Pilate had a very powerful, anti-Jewish patron, so what reason would he have to capitulating to the wishes of the temple authorities? And there is a very obscure third point which I will not go into because it would take far too much space to detail out. It is something that is not usually part of the discussion of Jesus's crucifixion.
If Jesus returns in 2030
- Thread starter Ezekiel184
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I never claimed he was crucified in 31 or any specific year, plz check the record first.
Please note that, first, again, a Jewish calendar day starts and ends at 6 pm, as opposed to ours at 12 pm; a Jewish month originally started at the spotting of new moon in the middle east region, which would last for 29.5 days in average; a Jewish year has 12 or 13 of such lunar month, every 19 years is a cycle, which has 12 common years (12 lunar months) and 7 leap years (13 lunar months). It is not for us to know the day simply because this system cannot be accurately converted to our Gregarian calendar system.
31 CE is your only option for 14 Nissan to fall on a Thursday in the proper timeframe. You don't need to officially claim it when it is the only option.
And I am very familiar with Jewish calendars, you do not need to keep repeating yourself. But if the Last Supper was a Passover feast, which you claimed it was because the Jewish day began at sundown, then problems arise. The sacrificial lambs were killed in the afternoon before Passover, so either Jesus did not die at the time the sacrificial lambs did, or the Last Supper was not a Passover feast.
If Jesus died on a Thursday with a Friday Passover, then He might well have died at the hour they killed the lambs, but also that means that the Last Supper was not a Passover meal, that is unless you want to contradict the timelines present in the gospels.
And it is actually quite easy to calculate the days on the ancient Jewish calendars since we have computers.
If you deny Jesus being the sacrificial lamb, you deny his messiahship, how would the date of his crucifixion even matter to you? Are you saying that Jesus was lying about "three nights and three days" in the tomb? If it were Friday, it would only be two nights (Friday night and Saturday night), the math won't work. Any portion of a day could be count as a day, but in order to have three day, there MUST be three whole 12-hour nights, since night proceeds day. You have to be reminded since you don't acknowledge.
I suspect you may be under the indoctrination of transubstantiation, that the symbolic breaking of the bread and pouring of the wine are the "real" sacrifice, while the literal breaking of His body and pouring of his blood are not. If that's the case, well, sorry man, you do you, all I can tell you is that this teaching originated from the 4th lateran council on 1215, it was a man made tradition.
This is going over your head by a mile. Why did the Messiah, the sinless Son of the Living God, conceived of the Holy Spirit, still need to be baptized? Why did He say to John that He being baptized fulfilled all righteousness?
[For context, remember i'm replying to your asinine rebuttal about him being 30 yrs old, when He was fulfilling the law's requirement of a lamb of the 1st yr being the sin sacrifice]
The problem is that you keep trying to preserve one aspect of the gospel accounts at the expense of another, and you get mad when that is pointed out. Given the timeline and how things are described there is no way to preserve Jesus's prediction about three days and three nights as well as the Last Supper being a Passover meal and His rising on the first day of the week. You must decide what you are abandoning.
Jesus entered Jerusalem on a Sunday, on Monday He cursed a fig tree, on Tuesday the disciples observed that it was withered (reportedly some occurred immediately), on Wednesday the Last Supper was organized and held that night. Now if the official Passover was on Friday, then the Last Supper could have been a Passover feast as the unofficial Jewish calendar was two days off from the official one.
But these points make it mandatory that you choose which point you are choosing to sacrifice to make your timeline fit. But whichever point you choose, you are contradicting part of scripture, and you need to be willing to accept that, not try to redefine things to fit your preconceptions.
He received the POWER of the Holy Spirit, which enabled him to perform miracles. Before that, as you said, he hadn't met the legal age, but he already his identity and his mission.
The bible is not written for a piss contest of doctrines to compare who has more "proof texts" to back their own doctrine. And once again, before you mention any weekday, please define it first, are you talking about a Jewish day from 6 pm to 6 pm or a modern day from 12 pm to 12 pm? It seems you're still theorizing from a modern day prospective, since you mentioned "on Wednesday the Last Supper", but that was actually Thursday since it was after sundown. This invalidates your whole argument. You claim you understand the ancient Jewish dating system, but you don't.
Please read this in love, respect, and sincere inquiry:
"implies" is tantamount to saying, "I don't really know, but I
"believe" which can simply be taken as, "this is my opinion."
If I could present corresponding prophetic and scientific evidence to support His return to be on the 3rd day of Passover, 2036, would this challenge your belief?
You are quite right that for the Jews, the day begins at sundown. So, if Jesus arranged for the Last Supper on Wednesday morning, at 6 pm that evening it became Thursday, and if Thursday was the Passover, then they could be eating a Passover feast. But if the Passover was Friday, no Passover feast on Wednesday evening. So was the Last Supper a Passover feast as implied in multiple gospels, which makes Thursday the Passover and Jesus dying on the Passover instead of when Passover lambs are killed, or was it not a Passover feast and Jesus could die at the time Passover lambs were killed. You cannot have it both ways.
Are you still implying transubstantiation? That the last supper was the real lamb sacrifice, the crucifixion wasn't? If it is in your perception that Jesus's death at 3 pm doesn't match the timing of the lamb sacrifice at "twilight", which you supposed to be at sundown, then how does date matter? It would be a mismatch either on Thursday or on Friday.
In fact, it is written that there're two daily sacrifices - “And you shall say to them, ‘This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening." (Num. 28:3-4) In Jewish tradition, though, the second one was always performed in the AFTERNOON, not sundown. You can't have it both ways only because you're still thinking in terms of modern day from 12 pm to 12 pm, and equating "twilight' with 'sundown" at dinner time.
"We are commanded to offer two lambs daily as burnt-offerings, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, as it says “Two each day, a regular burnt-offering…”."
Daily and Additional Sacrifices
46. Daily and Additional Sacrifices - Temidin u-Musafin We are commanded to offer two lambs daily as burnt-offerings, one in the morning and one in the afterno
torah.org
"The nation was commanded to offer two lambs each day as a korban olah (burnt offering), one in the morning and one in the afternoon."
401. Twice a Day, Every Day: The obligation to offer two lambs daily - Taryag - OU Torah
The nation was commanded to offer two lambs each day as a korban olah (burnt offering), one in the morning and one in the afternoon. These were called the korb
Every day, in the Bet haMiqdash, two sacrifices were offered, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.
The Ending Of The Daily Sacrifices | Halakha of the Day
halakhaoftheday.org
You seem to be determined to misunderstand what I am saying. The Passover lambs were to be killed at about 3 pm on the day before Passover. If Jesus died on a Thursday before a Friday Passover, then a death around 3 pm fits. But that also means that the night before He could not have been celebrating Passover. YOU were the one who claimed that the Last Supper both was and was not a Passover feast. You are the one assuming transubstantiation not me.Are you still implying transubstantiation? That the last supper was the real lamb sacrifice, the crucifixion wasn't? If it is in your perception that Jesus's death at 3 pm doesn't match the timing of the lamb sacrifice at "twilight", which you supposed to be at sundown, then how does date matter? It would be a mismatch either on Thursday or on Friday.
In fact, it is written that there're two daily sacrifices - “And you shall say to them, ‘This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening." (Num. 28:3-4) In Jewish tradition, though, the second one was always performed in the AFTERNOON, not sundown. You can't have it both ways only because you're still thinking in terms of modern day from 12 pm to 12 pm, and equating "twilight' with 'sundown" at dinner time.
"We are commanded to offer two lambs daily as burnt-offerings, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, as it says “Two each day, a regular burnt-offering…”."
Daily and Additional Sacrifices
46. Daily and Additional Sacrifices - Temidin u-Musafin We are commanded to offer two lambs daily as burnt-offerings, one in the morning and one in the afterno
"The nation was commanded to offer two lambs each day as a korban olah (burnt offering), one in the morning and one in the afternoon."
401. Twice a Day, Every Day: The obligation to offer two lambs daily - Taryag - OU Torah
The nation was commanded to offer two lambs each day as a korban olah (burnt offering), one in the morning and one in the afternoon. These were called the korboutorah.org
Every day, in the Bet haMiqdash, two sacrifices were offered, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.
The Ending Of The Daily Sacrifices | Halakha of the Day
halakhaoftheday.org
Now the Last Supper could have been a Passover feast as implied in the gospels, but only if Passover began Friday night as there was a second calendar popular in Galilee, where Jesus and most of the disciples were from, but it was off from the official calendar by two days, meaning according to the Galilean calendar, Passover began Wednesday night.
You also want to bring in other traditions to support your position, I am sorry, but different traditions need to be kept separate. Routine sacrifices were not Passover specific sacrifices.
I am requesting that rather than tell me what I am suggesting that you simply tell me how you reconcile the implications that the Last Supper was a Passover feast on Wednesday night with your contention that the Passover began Thursday night. No matter which day Jesus was crucified on there are difficulties in the gospel accounts. How do you reconcile your version?
You seem to be determined to misunderstand what the bible is saying. The Passover lamb is to be killed ON the day of Passover, not "the day before Passover". The Passover Feast is the lamb itself, not the last supper. The burial of Jesus's body in the tomb was the symbolic consumption of his body. None of these have anything to do with the Last Supper. You keep distracting with the Last Supper, because you're thinking about transubstantiation, that's the only explanation.
You must watch over it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to slaughter it at twilight. They are to take the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the crossbeam of the houses where they will eat it. With unleavened bread and bitter herbs they are to eat it. (Ex. 12:6-8)
If you still don't get it, here's the timeline: the last supper was held at the beginning of Passover (Nissan 14), after sundown; then Jesus was arrested, tried, transferred (to king Herod's court), sent back and tried again, convicted, beaten, crucified, died (at 3 pm), buried before sundown. All of these took place between 6 pm (Wednesday night) to 6 pm (Thursday night), within the 12 hours night and 12 hours day of Nissan 14.
Look, if you still don't get it, your fatal mistake is equating the last supper with the Passover Feast. According to God's instruction, the real feast was the crucifixion, embalming and burial of Christ. As much as Christ was the sacrificial lamb in a symbolic sense, so was the Passover Feast, consumption of the lamb, in a symbolic sense.
I am sorry but transubstantiation has nothing to do with the Passover lamb. Where you got that idea is beyond me. As for the Passover lamb, it is sacrificed the afternoon before the Passover following the example set in Egypt where a lamb was killed in the afternoon and its blood spread on the on the doorframe of the houses where the Jews were sheltering so that the angel of death would pass over. The meat was to be eaten that night with unleavened bread.
And I might add, when I asked you if the Last Supper was a Passover feast your response was "It was and it wasn't". In Jerusalem, the Passover feast is eaten on the first night of Passover, after sundown with all arrangements, including sacrificing the Passover lamb, occurring during the afternoon of 14 Nissan.
Now let us consider the events preceding to make certain of our timeline. Jesus and the disciples were traveling to Jerusalem and came to Bethany and Bethpage, two towns near Jerusalem that were right about the limits of a Sabbath day's travel in the 1st century, we do not know how far the group had been traveling already, but two disciples went into Bethany, found the described donkey and brought it back to where Jesus was waiting. Jesus then rode the donkey into Jerusalem, presumably with the disciples walking. The group is now very near the limits for a day's travel on a Sabbath, but they still travel back to Bethany, thus indicating that they are not on a Sabbath but rather the first day of the week, additionally supported by the cleansing of the temple reported by Matthew, Mark and Luke, clearly an act deemed work and a violation of Sabbath laws. Thus, this is a Sunday not a Saturday. The "next day" (Monday) on the way into Jerusalem Jesus curses a fig tree. Again, "the next day" (Tuesday) on the way into Jerusalem, the fig tree is withered to its roots, astounding the disciples. Then "the next day" (Wednesday) Jesus sends to disciples to arrange the room for the Last Supper that coming night.
Now, what was the special occasion that called for this special meal? Using the Galilean calendar, which was consistently two days off the official Jewish calendar for festivals, it would be a Passover feast if Passover began Friday night, but that conflicts with your timeline, so what was it? Note, transubstantiation does not enter the calculation unless YOU force it in, not me.
Now you're playing a game of avoidance. I'll leave this alone.
The burnt offering (called "the daily" in Daniel) isn't a sin offering.Are you still implying transubstantiation? That the last supper was the real lamb sacrifice, the crucifixion wasn't? If it is in your perception that Jesus's death at 3 pm doesn't match the timing of the lamb sacrifice at "twilight", which you supposed to be at sundown, then how does date matter? It would be a mismatch either on Thursday or on Friday.
In fact, it is written that there're two daily sacrifices - “And you shall say to them, ‘This is the offering made by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs in their first year without blemish, day by day, as a regular burnt offering. The one lamb you shall offer in the morning, the other lamb you shall offer in the evening." (Num. 28:3-4) In Jewish tradition, though, the second one was always performed in the AFTERNOON, not sundown. You can't have it both ways only because you're still thinking in terms of modern day from 12 pm to 12 pm, and equating "twilight' with 'sundown" at dinner time.
"We are commanded to offer two lambs daily as burnt-offerings, one in the morning and one in the afternoon, as it says “Two each day, a regular burnt-offering…”."
Daily and Additional Sacrifices
46. Daily and Additional Sacrifices - Temidin u-Musafin We are commanded to offer two lambs daily as burnt-offerings, one in the morning and one in the afterno
"The nation was commanded to offer two lambs each day as a korban olah (burnt offering), one in the morning and one in the afternoon."
401. Twice a Day, Every Day: The obligation to offer two lambs daily - Taryag - OU Torah
The nation was commanded to offer two lambs each day as a korban olah (burnt offering), one in the morning and one in the afternoon. These were called the korb
Every day, in the Bet haMiqdash, two sacrifices were offered, one in the morning and one in the afternoon.
The Ending Of The Daily Sacrifices | Halakha of the Day
halakhaoftheday.org
I don't know where you've got the idea that the Passover lamb is to be "sacrificed the afternoon before the Passover." In the "example set in Egypt", the lamb was killed right on the Passover. And there's no "unofficial Galilean calendar." Again, if He got the date wrong, then He wasn't the messiah.
You must watch over it until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel is to slaughter it at twilight. They are to take the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the crossbeam of the houses where they will eat it. With unleavened bread and bitter herbs they are to eat it. (Ex. 12:6-8)
Agreed. The exact year matters. And we can determine the year by following out the historic fulfillment of the Seventy-weeks of years prophecy from Daniel 9:27 while matching it to references made in the gospel accounts (like in John 2:20, the fact that the temple was 46 yrs in building at the time the Messiah's ministry began at 30yrs old), while knowing that there's no such thing as a "zero" year when going from BCE to CE., and know that the Hebrew reckoning of time is to count the 1st year as year 1. This brings us to a 3 BCE birth.
Then, through the first chapters of Luke, we can determine that the Messiah was born on the feast of tabernacles (15th of the 7th month) using the timing of Zechariah's priestly course (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) and John the Baptist's birth as reference points.
Next, if we remove John 6:4 (because it was added by the RCC), that brings Messiah's ministry to exactly 490 days, perfectly aligning with the seventy-weeks prophecy and places His crucifixion in 27/28AD.
----
But regarding the last supper, there is a translation error that's causing you both to miss each other... because you're both correct from a pov.
The account says the day was "the preparation", when lambs are slaughtered in preparation for the feast. Because no work is allowed to be done on the first day of the feast by law (because it is a high sabbath), you're correct, the Passover is not "the Feast of Unleavened Bread" (but bible translators wouldn't know this culturally, so they mislabeled Chag HaMatzot "Passover" or "Passover Festival" or "Passover Feast"). They knew the sacrificial lamb was called "the passover" but didn't know the name of the feast, so they were basically calling it "the feast of the sacrificial lamb".
This is the reason why you and @Lovette are missing each other's points.
In truth, Passover is the final workday before the high sabbath Day One of the 7-day feast of Unleavened Bread. Messiah was crucified on Passover (at 3pm) at the exact time when the yearling lambs were slaughtered on the temple mount, and He was in the ground (as they were placed in the ovens) before the start of the feast (which starts that evening with the evening's meal). Which means His last supper was the evening before. Here's the sequence:
Last Supper (Passover/Preparation day) - Tuesday evening...
[betrayal, arrest, trial, beating...]
His crucifixion (Passover/Preparation day) - Wednesday daylight...
[Joseph of Aramathaea placed the Messiah's body in the tomb]
[The Marys witness this and leave]
[Nic brings burial spices, and he and Joseph anoint the body]
High Sabbath Feast day 1 - Wednesday evening...
[No work. No buying or selling]
[Everyone eats the Passover Lamb w/bitter herbs (romaine lettuce) for the feast of Chag HaMatzot]
High Sabbath Feast day 1 - Thursday daylight...
[No work. No buying or selling]
Feast day 2 (work day) - Thursday evening...
[No shops open at night]
Feast day 2 (work day) - Friday daylight...
[The Marys buy burial spices to anoint His body, assuming it didn't happen]
[This was a full day's task since they needed enough for a human body]
[Plan to anoint the body at the start of the new week because the weekly sabbath was upon them]
Feast day 3 (weekly sabbath) - Friday evening...
[No work. No buying or selling]
Feast day 3 (weekly sabbath) - Saturday daylight...
[No work. No buying or selling]
Feast day 4 (Day of First Fruits) - Saturday evening...
[Resurrection of Messiah and the firstfruit saints]
[Messiah remains secluded in worship as required by the high priest, preparing the firstfruit offering]
Feast day 4 (Day of First Fruits) - Sunday daylight...
[Messiah presents Himself to the women but asks that they not touch Him yet]
[Messiah presents Himself and those who also resurrected with Him as firstfruits to the Almighty in heaven]
[Messiah likely went to preach to the unclean spirits imprisoned in the Pit]
[Messiah then presents Himself to the apostles on earth and encourages them to touch Him]