Imputed Righteousness of Christ

[tribesman]

the Gospel is a circle of righteousness.
*whew*
okay.
writing this down also...

...but there is a circle of righteousness i wasn't aware of.

sigh.
this is hard.

I am also wondering about that. We'll see if there's any further expound on that.

 

[Skinski7]

My comments in Red.

Actually it is a matter of double imputation.

The sins of the elect were imputed to Christ, so Christ became guilty in His person for the sins of His people and was justly punished for those sins, though He was perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Isa.53:4-6, 1Petr.2:24). First of all if Jesus became guilty then He would not have been perfectly sinless and nor would he have been without spot when He offered Himself up to God. You are teaching that Jesus offered Himself up with our spots.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Now the first proof text you references is this...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

First of all Jesus could not literally have been made sin for sin is a moral issue and not a substance. Secondly if Jesus was somehow "made sin" then he would not have been "without spot" would He? Thirdly the language of "made sin" is quite similar to "made in the likeness of sinful flesh" of Rom 8:3 and could very well be a description that Jesus was a man in the flesh just like us. Fourthly the word translated "sin" is used in the Septuagint to refer to "sin offering" multitudes of times so it is very possible that this is what it meant here and the translators translated it "made sin" in order to support their theology, for further information on this contention read what Adam Clarke wrote about it... http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=2co&chapter=005

Your second proof text...

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Let's be truthful here. Does that passage say that Jesus Christ became guilty in his person for our sins and was then justly punished for those sins? It doesn't say anything of the sort does it?

It does say that he was esteemed stricken and smitten of God form the human perspective (we esteemed). It sure looked like God had struck and punished Jesus for something. Yet was being put to death on a cross (which is what people esteemed as being stricken and smitten of God) the penalty for sin? I thought it was being cast into hell and then eventually into the Lake of Fire.

Verse 5 does say that He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities (He was wounded and bruised), and that the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and that by His stripes we are healed. Does this mean that He became guilty in His person and was justly punished for our sins? It doesn't say that does it?

Verse 6 does say that our iniquity was laid upon Him. The sins were laid on the sin offering in the Old Testament. Jesus was our sin bearer. Yet is this teaching that He became guilty and was justly punished like you are teaching?

Did you know that the early church did not teach what you are teaching? Penal Substitution is an invention of the Reformation.

The righteousness of Christ was imputed to His people, thereby His people was made righteous in the person of their substitute and are therefore acceptable before God, even though they are not perfectly sinless (2Cor.5:21, Rom.5:19).

You proof text 2Cor 5:21 again this time as a support for the Imputed Righteousness of Christ.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Does that verse say that the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to your account? Be honest about it. Does it say that? It looks to me that it says "we might be MADE the righteousness of God IN Him."

I read this in Romans...

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And in Galatians I see this...

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Thus this verse...

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

...is speaking of EXAMPLE and not of a transfer of virtue. Does Rom 5:19 actually state that the righteousness of Christ is credited to your account?

If one does not believe in salvation by this imputed righteousness, then one obviously believes in salvation by a righteousness of his own. It has to be one of them two and not both at the same time. They can never mix. How about a righteousness which is wrought in an individual because they are yielded fully to God? A righteousness rooted in purity of heart.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Jesus did say...

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The clear context of Mat 5:20 was in relation to what comes out of the heart because Jesus compared "outer sin" with "sin in the heart." A purified soul does not have sin in the heart does it?

I dare say this Imputed Righteousness of Christ is a fiction invented in the minds of men.

Hence in Rom.10:3, God states that those who are ignorant of God's righteousness are lost since they are yet going about to establish their own righteousness. Isn't God's righteousness simply God's STANDARD of DOING WHAT IS RIGHT? Wouldn't establishing OUR OWN righteousness be setting up our own standard apart from God's standard? That verse does talk about "being ignorant" of God's righteousness. If one is ignorant of God's standards what is left but to establish your own.

What is this righteousness of God that is so crucially important that those who are ignorant about it are said to be lost? Rom. 1:17 says that the gospel reveals God's righteousness.

One key passage that gives more information about this subject is found in Romans 3:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: A faith that works by love (Gal 5:6) which upholds the righteousness of the law (Rom 3:31).
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: The Spirit of life in Jesus Christ sets one free from the law of sin and death (Rom 8:2). Redemption literally means redeemed by payment of ransom. The blood of Christ was the payment. Jesus did not pay for our sins, Jesus paid for us.
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; His righteousness was declared in that He was a sin offering with blemish.
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Now, let's look at Psalm 32:

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Back to Paul in Romans 4:

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith is counted for righteousness. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF JESUS IS CREDITED TO YOU.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Clearly David was talking about the blessedness of the man to whom God not only does not impute iniquity but also does impute righteousness apart from works. The perfect righteousness of Christ is imputed or legally charged to God's people YET THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY THIS ANYWHERE. IT IS A DOCTRINE OF MEN. IF IT IS TRUE WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT????????????????????????????????, and David, just as all Old Testament Saints, believed this. Psalm 32:1-2 shows us that the atoning blood is that by which our transgressions are lifted and our sins covered. The imputed righteousness is that by which we are declared righteous before God. Same principle in OT as NT.

To affirm the biblical principle of imputed righteousness is very important when refuting justification by works since it clearly shows that justification is by something wholly outside of the efforts of man which causes God to declare us righteous. God imputes one righteous APART from the works of the law. God reckons FAITH as righteousness. FAITH IS A WORK and FAITH WORKS BY LOVE. If one is truly yielded and thus led by God then God reckons that person as righteous by their faith. Saving faith is simply the active dynamic of full conviction by which we yield completely to God. Works- and self righteousness advocates, who are unregenerate and do not believe the gospel, always oppose and hate the doctrine of imputed righteousness. Imputed Righteousness is true, it is the Imputed Righteousness of Christ which is false. Because, even they, understands that, if true, it means there is no space to boast left for man. The boast was in keeping the law.

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
The Pharisees saught their righteousness in outward works apart from a faith that works by love. They were inwardly defiled. Outward works do not purify the heart, the heart can only be purified by faithfully yielding to God (Act 15:9). Your doctrine completely negates heart purity and replaces it with a fictitious cloak. Thhe Bible says it is THE PURE IN HEART THAT WILL SEE GOD, it does not say anything about a judicial purity cloak.

You are beholden to extremely dangerous error Tribesman.

The gospel reveals how God is just when He justifies the ungodly. It reveals God as a "just God and a Saviour" (Isa.45:21). Any other "gospel" that reveals God to be neither a just God nor a Savior is a false gospel. The true and living God is one who does not show love, mercy, and grace at the expense of His justice. The righteous demands of His Law must be completely satisfied WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT????????????? In the parable of the unfogiving servant the servant was FREELY FORGIVEN without payment being made. Jesus purchased us with His blood, the Bible does not teach anywhere that He satisfied the wrath of God by aborbing our punishment. for all those whom He shows love, mercy and grace. And the true Christ established such a righteousness that demands the salvation of all those whom He represented.

 

[Ariel82]

could you use like blue or green? red hurts my eyes after a while.

]My comments in red.

I think this is an interesting post because it really does appear you are thinking about these issues.[/COLOR]

ummm you don't know me very well, but most who do will tell you I don't bother to post unless I think and pray about the issue first, unless I'm just fellowshiping and spreading the love of Christ. some things just come naturally without a lot of thought beforehand.

i'm some what confused because I believe imputed righteousness of Christ is Biblical but not in the context of how you explain it.

To reiterate very briefly the Bible says this...

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Let's really THINK here and use our REASONING ABILITY.

Romans 4 verse 5 clearly states that "faith is counted for righteousness." In other words God sees that an individual has faith and God counts that faith as righteousness. Read the passage again, it does not say a single thing about the righteousness of another being credited to the believer does it? Am I lying? Is not what I am saying true? Read the verse and THINK about what it ACTUALLY SAYS not what people imply it says.

but you miss the point in WHAT we are to have faith in.

Let's talk about the righteousness of Jesus for a moment. Why was Jesus righteous? Was it not because He did the right thing? I would assert that Jesus LOVED PERFECTLY and thus ALWAYS did the right thing and due to this it can be said that Jesus was righteous. Now let's THINK again. Can the conduct of Jesus be credited to someone else? Is it possible that the constitution of an individual by which they manifest right conduct be credited to another?

So when you say "God righteousness/Christ's righteousness" is given to you what does that mean? Does not it mean that the virtue of one is given to another? Does the transfer of virtue even make sense? PLEASE THINK IT THROUGH.

yes, have you not read these Bible verses?

Luke 8
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
[SUP]46 [/SUP]And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

[SUP]47 [/SUP]And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.

[SUP]48 [/SUP]And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

Again Rom 4:5 specifically states that "his faith is counted for righteousness." Paul is clearly stating that there is a kind of faith that God counts as righteousness. Paul is not speaking of a transfer. Read it again please. What does it actually say? THINK.

are you confused about what the word propiation means?

if so this website goes into details with more BIble verses in it:

http://www.theopedia.com/Propitiation

"
Propitiation literally means to make favorable and specifically includes the idea of dealing with God’s wrath against sinners. Expiation literally means to make pious and implies either the removal or cleansing of sin.
The idea of propitiation includes that of expiation as its means; but the word "expiation" has no reference to quenching God’s righteous anger. The difference is that the object of expiation is sin, not God. One propitiates a person, and one expiates a problem. Christ's death was therefore both an expiation and a propitiation. By expiating (removing the problem of) sin God was made propitious (favorable) to us."


Romans 3: 23-28

Now look at Romans 4 verse 3. What does it say? It says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." So God counted Abraham's BELIEF as righteousness too.

Believed - G4100 - pisteuō
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.

Faith - G4102 - pistis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

again what did Abraham have faith IN?

Now let's turn to Hebrews 11 and read what it says...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Notice that faith was the DYNAMIC by which Abraham obeyed God and went out. Abraham was persuaded that what God said was true and Abraham entrusted his well being to God and thus Abraham submitted Himself to the will of God.

Here is what Hebrews says about Noah...

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Notice again that faith was the DYNAMIC that moved Noah TO DO what God told him to do and due to this he became a heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Now look at this passage...

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Paul speaks of LIVING BY THE FAITH of Jesus and that by doing so he does not frustrate the grace of God because he knows that righteousness does not come by the law. Righteousness comes by faith.

Do any of these passages harmonise with the virtue of Jesus being credited to the believer? I don't see it at all.

yes it is clear you don't see it, because you don't seem to truly understand what Jesus did on the cross. Just because the virtue of Jesus is credited to a believer does not mean the believer does not work to become virtuous and perform good works after having been cleansed and sanctified by God's Holy Spirit unto adoption by God.

Here is another passage about faith and righteousness.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Righteousness by faith and faith works by love. Do you see a transfer of the righteousness of Jesus to the believers account there? I sure don't. I see Paul teaching that righteousness is by faith and that faith works by love.

Therefore when John writes this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Notice that John connects "loving one another" with "doing righteousness." If faith works by love and it involves entrusting ourselves completely to God what will be the result?

1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Now if a sinner forsakes their sin and is reconciled to God through repentance and faith and is cleansed of all unrighteousness (the conscience purged) surely they will be walking by a faith that works by love. Yet the Bible teaches the "perfecting of the saints" which means they "are not perfect yet." It means they need to grow. Yet the HEART IS PURE (Act 15:9) they just don't know much. God does not reckon them righteous by how much they know but rather COUNTS THEIR FAITH AS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM THEIR WORKS.

Read what I wrote ten times and THINK about it. Am I lying? Am I contradicting the Bible?

you just have half the truth and can't seem to see the rest of the picture.

will you bear with me and I will explain how I read Martin Luther's sermon about it.

I believe he teaches that God's righteousness/ Christ's righteousness is given to us, imputed to us in order that we might grow and build out own proper righteousness. The problem is there is not a single passage in the entire Bible which states that the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the believer. Jesus didn't teach it nor did anyone else.

I believe many people are in error if they think that Christ's imputed righteousness is the only type of righteousness they need. They are in error if they believe the virtue of someone else can be transferred to another.

I know you don't believe in original sin or total depravity but I believe you misunderstand those terms as well. I will admit you may have meet some who describe it as you describe it but its not what I've been taught or believe. I believe Adam's original sin does affect the world. causes people to die and that total depravity is just a term that says if you do not have God in your life you are unable to do anything.

Adam's sin did this...

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

There is nothing in the Bible about Adam's sin corrupting the constitution of his descendents. Physical death is a result of being denied access to the Tree of Life. Adam was made mortal and not immortal.

you believe that no one is ever with out God or His light but i'll have to revisit that thought later because it has more implications than you may realize. Not necessarily, the Bible does warn about God giving people over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

I think if that happens you have no hope.

No human being comes into the world without the light of God. All human beings are drawn by God but the light can be suppressed and God won't be mocked. The Bible does say he gives people over to a reprobate mind, and there is the parable of the talents where the unprofitable servant has his talents removed.

Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Christ's imputed righteousness is set against Adam's sin The second Adam is definitely set against the first Adam but a transfer of righteousness has nothing to do with it.

Our proper righteousness is set against our own sin.

that is the message Luther teaches. Luther is in error. He may have rejected some of the ritualistic sacraments but he simply invented a new theology based upon the writings of Augustine.

I know you do not believe in original sin and I would like to believe that if children are left to their own devices they will do what God wants them to do, but its not true Original sin teaches that the decendents of Adam are imputed with the guilt of Adam as well as having their constitution ruined thus necessitating actual sin. Basically man is taught as being disabled from being able to exercise the virtuous choice. Thus actual sin is the symptom of a disease as opposed to a choice rooted in the exercise of the will.

you see children are selfish. they don't need to be taught how to fight with another child. but they do need to be taught to share. Of course children need to be taught. They are born blank slates subject to the natural passions. They have also been imbued with the light of conscience which only becomes apparent when the ability to reason has developed. Sin is always rooted in the free exercise of the will. I would say that the selfishness exhibited by a 3 year old is not "sin unto death" because the child has no true conception that it is wrong. The child is simply walking according to natural passions and has not yet gained the capacity to exercise moral choices. So while it may appear sinful it really isn't.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying a child is righteous either. I am simply saying they are neutral up until they can reason and thus exercise their will and make a choice.

that is why the Law is a tutor for us until we come to the knowledge of Christ. we are outwardly discipline until the wisdom of God grows in our heart. it is not there naturally. I agree although I would say that there is the light of conscience as well as the instruction of law. As far as the flesh is concerned, it is simply base passions like an animal. God is calling all people to live above their base passions and submit to Him. Sinners are brute beasts.

God does place in us a sense of right and wrong, just and unjust but even as children we try to find ways to increase our advantage, ways to get more than we are given.

the world teaches this "look out for number one" "climb the ladder" "buy this new car" etc.

I see a world lost and see people trying to follow the letter of the law without knowing the heart and Spirit and the need. not because they are doing what is right but because they are afraid of being punished for doing what is wrong. I agree. This is why righteousness is not by the law. One can yield to the law for many different reasons that have nothing to do with love. True righteousness is of the heart and is thus by a faith that works by love. Love fulfills the law.

i've got to tuck the kids in, but know this I'm trying my best to show you your misconceptions about Original sin, imputed righteousness and some of the other doctrines you protest so loudly against. Thankyou for your comments.

God help me because I'm not a theologian, just a stay at home mom who likes reading the BIble and listening to sermons. I am not a theologian either. In fact I do not even have a university education. I have always worked with my hands. I am a simple peasant who loves God and the words He has given us. I also love to dig into things to find answers.

so we still disagree on the concept of original sin and imputed righteousness, because you do not believe sin or virtue can be imputed unto a person that did not commit the action.

mmm...

 

[Ariel82]

its confusing since you believe that righteousness is imputed for faith, but what kind of righteousness is it if its not of God? Of Christ?

I'm going to just go read the BIble and pray for a while...

[h=3]Psalm 71 n[/h]
71 In You, O Lord, I put my trust;
Let me never be put to shame.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Deliver me in Your righteousness, and cause me to escape;
Incline Your ear to me, and save me.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Be my strong refuge,
To which I may resort continually;
You have given the commandment to save me,
For You are my rock and my fortress.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked,
Out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For You are my hope, O Lord GOD;
You are my trust from my youth.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]By You I have been upheld from birth;
You are He who took me out of my mother’s womb.
My praise shall be continually of You.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]I have become as a wonder to many,
But You are my strong refuge.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Let my mouth be filled with Your praise
And with Your glory all the day.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Do not cast me off in the time of old age;
Do not forsake me when my strength fails.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For my enemies speak against me;
And those who lie in wait for my life take counsel together,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Saying, “God has forsaken him;
Pursue and take him, for there is none to deliver him.”

[SUP]12 [/SUP]O God, do not be far from me;
O my God, make haste to help me!
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Let them be confounded and consumed
Who are adversaries of my life;
Let them be covered with reproach and dishonor
Who seek my hurt.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]But I will hope continually,
And will praise You yet more and more.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]My mouth shall tell of Your righteousness
And Your salvation all the day,
For I do not know their limits.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I will go in the strength of the Lord GOD;
I will make mention of Your righteousness, of Yours only.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]O God, You have taught me from my youth;
And to this day I declare Your wondrous works.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now also when I am old and grayheaded,
O God, do not forsake me,
Until I declare Your strength to this generation,
Your power to everyone who is to come.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Also Your righteousness, O God, is very high,
You who have done great things;
O God, who is like You?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]You, who have shown me great and severe troubles,
Shall revive me again,
And bring me up again from the depths of the earth.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]You shall increase my greatness,
And comfort me on every side.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Also with the lute I will praise You—
And Your faithfulness, O my God!
To You I will sing with the harp,
O Holy One of Israel.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]My lips shall greatly rejoice when I sing to You,
And my soul, which You have redeemed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]My tongue also shall talk of Your righteousness all the day long;
For they are confounded,
For they are brought to shame
Who seek my hurt.

when Paul tells us to put on the armor of God, who's righteousness is your breastplate? Who's helmet of Salvation?

[h=3]Ephesians 6:13-15
[/h]
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, [SUP]15 [/SUP]and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;


In this way I believe God clothes us in His righteousness, as protection against evil and the spiritual fiery arrows of the enemy and his lies of condemnation.

 

[Ariel82]

Oh I remember verses about imputed sins and stuff. let me see if I can find them....ohhh its 1 am, i so should be in bed. lol...its going to be a long day tomorrow 6am is really early...

here it is:

Exodus 20
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, [SUP]6 [/SUP]but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

[Skinski7]

Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Virtue in that verse means power.

Virtue - G1411 - dunamis
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.

You cannot use that verse to prove that MORAL VIRTUE or RIGHTEOUSNESS can be transferred from one person to another.

There is not a single scripture in the entire Bible which states that the Righteousness of Christ is credited to the believers account. The Bible says FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.

To answer your question about Abraham. Abraham had faith in God.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Notice again it says that FAITH IS IMPUTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. The Bible does not teach that the righteousness of Jesus is credited to a believers account by faith.

Where does the Bible teach that the "righteousness of Christ" is imputed by faith? Where?????????????????

 

[Ariel82]

sigh have you read my other post yet?

 

[Skinski7]

Oh I remember verses about imputed sins and stuff. let me see if I can find them....ohhh its 1 am, i so should be in bed. lol...its going to be a long day tomorrow 6am is really early...

here it is:

Exodus 20
[SUP]4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; [SUP]5 [/SUP]you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, [SUP]6 [/SUP]but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So you think that those verses are teaching that God imputes guilt from one person to another? Iniquity being visited on subsequent generations is simply a generational curse. If I abuse my children it is highly likely they will abuse their own children.

It is the same with Blessing. God visits the blessing onto subsequent generations.

God will not charge someone guilty with someone else's sin. That paints God as unjust.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Ariel82]

So you think that those verses are teaching that God imputes guilt from one person to another?

not really i believe that the imputed sin of Adam is like the imputed iniquity spoken of in that verse. in the same way people who grew up with parents who are wiccan or worshipped idols, would have that iniquity upon them. they would need Jesus to cleanse them.

God shields us with His Righteousness.

I just don't get hanged up with the terms like you seem to.

Original Sin = sin and death originated from Adam and his first sin

imputed righteousness = Jesus Righteousness cleansing and shielding us

too late at night to talk <yawn> nit.

 

[psychomom]

skinski said:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith is counted for righteousness

Along with Ariel (I love you, Ariel!) I would like an answer to the question, 'faith in what'.

faith in what, Scott? faith in our own works? our own 'righteousness'?

FAITH IN WHAT?

 

[psychomom]

My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame but wholly lean on Jesus' Name

On Christ the solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand
All other ground is sinking sand

When darkness veils His lovely face I rest on His unchanging grace
In every high and stormy gale my Anchor holds within the veil

His oath
His covenant
His blood supports me in the whelming flood
When all around my soul gives way He then is ALL my hope and stay

When He shall come with trumpet sound, o, may I then in Him be found
Dressed in His righteousness alone, faultless to stand before the Throne

On Christ the Solid Rock I stand
All other ground is sinking sand!


this is my testimony
my only Hope
and Hope enough!

 

[Ariel82]

skinski said:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith is counted for righteousness

Along with Ariel (I love you, Ariel!) I would like an answer to the question, 'faith in what'.

faith in what, Scott? faith in our own works? our own 'righteousness'?

FAITH IN WHAT?

love you too....

He seems to imply faith in God to have us perform good works and establish our own righteousness, but I'm not sure.

I believe in that as well but I believe that we are protected by Christ's righteousness not our own. we give shelter to others with our righteousness and spread the love of GOd but we are justified by CHrist's work not our own.

though it could be said that the establishment of our own righteousness is a work of the Holy Spirit, but like sin that lead to death can be traced back to Adam. the redemption that leads to eternal life is solely founded by Jesus sacrifice on the cross and His bodily ressurection.

 

[psychomom]

love you too....

He seems to imply faith in God to have us perform good works and establish our own righteousness, but I'm not sure.

I believe in that as well but I believe that we are protected by Christ's righteousness not our own. we give shelter to others with our righteousness and spread the love of GOd but we are justified by CHrist's work not our own.

I feel (sadly) certain that more than an implication of that has been given.

It also makes me sad that the idea that you can be driving along and have a fleeting thought of anger against another driver (jerk!)
is being Holy as God is Holy.

 

[Ariel82]

Romans 3
[h=3][/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, [SUP]22 [/SUP]even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[SUP][h][/SUP] who believe. For there is no difference; [SUP]23 [/SUP]for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [SUP]24 [/SUP]being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [SUP]25 [/SUP]whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, [SUP]26 [/SUP]to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

The Bible tells us what and who we should have faith in. not ourselves or our works but GOD and JESUS' work.

Romans 4
[SUP]24 [/SUP]but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, [SUP]25 [/SUP]who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was delivered up because of our offenses (this means he died in our place, if we had not offended Jesus would not have needed to be delivered up). Jesus was raised because of our justification because God declares things that are not yet as they are. just as He told us that Abraham would be the father of many nations. so too He declares that WE shall be justified and that is why Jesus rose from the dead.

Do you have faith in that?

here is another scripture verse:


[h=3]Philippians 1:5-7
[/h]
[SUP]5 [/SUP]for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, [SUP]6 [/SUP]being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; [SUP]7 [/SUP]just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.

 

[Ariel82]

It also makes me sad that the idea that you can be driving along and have a fleeting thought of anger against another driver (jerk!)
is being Holy as God is Holy.

would that be classified as one of those sins not unto death?

 

[SarahM777]

I feel (sadly) certain that more than an implication of that has been given.

It also makes me sad that the idea that you can be driving along and have a fleeting thought of anger against another driver (jerk!)
is being Holy as God is Holy.

But that leaves out when Jesus raised the bar. Jesus took the law to the motives of the heart not just the outward acts (Which is the spirit of the law not the letter of the law). Which is what the Scribes and Pharisees missed,they knew the letter of the law,but missed the heart and soul of the law. The tax collector here got it

Luke 18

[SUP]9 [/SUP]To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.[SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
[SUP]13 [/SUP]“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
[SUP]14 [/SUP]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

A paradox perhaps?

 

[Ariel82]

more like an oversight and a misunderstanding between the OLD Covenant and the NEW Covenant.

 

[Grandpa]

skinski said:
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Faith is counted for righteousness

Along with Ariel (I love you, Ariel!) I would like an answer to the question, 'faith in what'.

faith in what, Scott? faith in our own works? our own 'righteousness'?

FAITH IN WHAT?

You and Ariel both beat me to that question. But it is answered in Romans 4:5

Romans 4:5-7
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

 

[Skinski7]

faith in what, Scott? faith in our own works? our own 'righteousness'?

FAITH IN WHAT?



Faith in God.

Look at how clear it is....

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Abraham simply entrusted his well being to God. God said "do this" and Abraham said "yes Lord."

Abraham trusted his Creator COMPLETELY. He was fully yielded to his Creator.

Faith - G4102 - pistis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Look at this passage...

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Saving faith is being FULLY PERSUADED in the mind and thus having COMPLETE TRUST in God by which we YIELD COMPLETELY and thus DO what God tells us to do. God reckons that kind of faith as righteousness.

Not works, not our own righteousness, nothing that we have done, simply WALKING WITH GOD because WE TRULY BELIEVE HIM. We entrust ourselves to God.

Unbelief or disobedience is the opposite.

Unbelief - G570 - apistia
From G571; faithlessness, that is, (negatively) disbelief (want of Christian faith), or (positively) unfaithfulness (disobedience): - unbelief.

This is why God is the author of the salvation of those who obey Him. Obedience is Faith. It is the exact same thing. There is no such thing as rebellion to God in saving faith.

Look at this passage...

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Saving faith is ACTIVE. Saving faith WORKS. Saving faith = Obedient Faith. Abraham was justified by a faith whereby he was TOTALLY CONVINCED that God had his best interests in mind and thus even though he may not have understood why God told him to kill his son he nevertheless TRUSTED GOD and OBEYED.

Abraham BELIEVED God. That belief produced OBEDIENT ACTION. God therefore counted this faith/belief as righteousness.

It is so simple.

It has NOTHING to do with some judicial transfer like the Reformed Theologians teach. They twist the scriptures and read their doctrine into it. The Bible plainly states that FAITH IS IMPUTED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

The question is do we actually believe what the Bible says or do we prefer to cling to the doctrines of men and suppress the plain truth.

 

[starfield]

So you think that those verses are teaching that God imputes guilt from one person to another? Iniquity being visited on subsequent generations is simply a generational curse. If I abuse my children it is highly likely they will abuse their own children.

It is the same with Blessing. God visits the blessing onto subsequent generations.

God will not charge someone guilty with someone else's sin. That paints God as unjust.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Ezekiel 18:20 is referring to actual sins people commit, not the fallen nature of humanity. It's not saying that people did not inherit a sinful nature from Adam but rather no child is responsible for their parent's actual sins and vice versa. When they do sin they had to repent or will be punished for it. A similar passage is Deuteronomy 24:16"The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin". People sin because it's in their nature nonetheless they are responsible for those sins when they reach the age of accountability.

P.S. I'm not arguing in favour of sin.