In An Emergency Medical Situation, To What Extent Would God Want Us to Go to Extend Someone's Life?

[seoulsearch]

Hey Everyone,

I hope this topic can be a heartfelt, respectful discussion without turning into an argument.

When I was in Lutheran high school, I distinctly remember one of our pastors telling us, "I've told my kids, if I have a heart attack and collapse on the spot, don't let medical staff try to bring me back. The Lord would be calling me home! Why would I want to stay here? Just let me go and be with Him." He wasn't saying this in a morbid, depressed way at all, and he was far from old -- maybe in his forties then?

He was simply content over how his race had been run in his life, and was willing to finish the final leg whenever God called him.

I was thinking a lot about this after my parents had a talk with the family about their own (hopefully, VERY, VERY far into the future) end-of-life wishes.

We knew someone once who was elderly and fell into a coma, with a body that was functioning just fine on machines, but no signs of brain activity. The family made the hard decision to stop the machines.

What are your viewpoints about this?

I'm going to write a multiple-choice, anonymous poll -- but it only allows about 10 answers, so I'll be very limited in the choices I can give.

Please come back and tell us why you chose what you did if you feel comfortable, or share your own answer if it's not listed in the poll (no one will be able to see your poll choices either way.)

I would be very interested to hear:

* If you fell over, do you want medical teams to try their best to revive you?

* Would it depend on your age (35 with spouse and growing kids vs. 65, etc.), health situation (healthy vs. struggling with illness or disability,) or place in life? (still striving towards career and personal goals vs. already having met them, etc.)

* Would you choose differently for a spouse, child, or someone close to you? (As in, if it's you, you don't want to be revived, but if it were your spouse, child, or someone else, you would want THEM to be revived if at all possible.) How would the other people involved feel about that? (How would your spouse feel about not trying to reviving you, but doing everything possible to revive his or her own self?)

* If you or someone you love was in a coma and there was no sign of brain activity, would you keep them going on machines for as long as possible? Would it depend on age? (Senior adult vs. adult vs. someone young with lots of potential life ahead, etc.) What if t was draining all of the family finances?

* If you or someone you loved was in a coma but there WERE signs of brain activity, would you keep them alive for as long as possible, hoping for a recovery, even if it never came? (And again, how much of this might be influenced by the person's age/stage in life?)


I know this is an uncomfortable subject, but it's one that most people will have to face with aging family members (though of course, it can happen at any age.)

I know there are stories of miraculous recoveries out there, but if I collapsed today, I don't want to empty my family's savings while waiting on a hope and a prayer -- however, that's just me.

And of course, we all know that any decision like this -- would have to come with a lot of prayer and seeking God -- whenever possible.

I really hope this thread can be a place where people can share what they've seen or believe about this topic as a Christian -- but not condemn the beliefs of anyone else who feels differently (the "No, don't revive me!" vs. someone who wants to be revived, etc.)

As someone who is in the middle of navigating tough talks with those I love, it would be extremely helpful to hear from other Christians who have experience and meaningful thoughts about this topic.

Again, the poll only allows a small number of answers which I've already filled in, so please come back to share in a post, especially if you have an answer that isn't in the poll.

Thanks very much for sharing and may God richly bless you!

 

[TabinRivCA]

I chose to keep my loved ones alive, at least most of themjk, and even with brain damage. I truly believe the church is way behind on what Jesus said, Mark 16:17-18: Jesus states that signs, including laying hands on the sick for recovery, will follow "those who believe," without restricting the action to church leaders or clergy.
I hope to keep building my faith to simply believe what Jesus told us to do, and especially mixed with love, as in love your neighbor.
Maybe you should add that to the options, lol. Really a thought provoking question and personally have heard of many miracle recoveries. So I'd hate to count someone out without giving it to the Lord and trusting His promise and believe.

 

[Lanolin]

I think sometimes family wishes override your own in that sense, and medical people are always trying to keep you as long as possible esp if you are in emergency situation, they are bound by ethics and duty of care.

Hezekiah and Lazarus come to mind of those who were revived, and also Jairus daughter.

Even if you may not live long after being revived, sometimes it's so family members get a chance to say goodbye. But it may mean more suffering, however, nobody goes through life without pain or suffering. Even if you the richest person on earth, your health can fail and then what have you got.

Quality of life and the cost of treatments though are often taken into account. I can understand why, some people push for euthanasia esp among elderly when with treatment everything gets compromised and all too much.

I don't know if I agree but I think its on a case by case basis and we can't always know what to do when the time comes or what the outcomes may be. Palliative care just helps with the dying process, having experienced a little of that its often the medical professionals who know the prognosis or have an idea of it, but they can't always predict things or acknowledge the wishes of their patients who can always change their mind. Dying may take hours, days, weeks, months or even years -you can't always know what kind of death you will die.

I don't really like the treatments some try to push on people who know they on their way out and don't need yet another CT scan or MRI or x ray to confirm it. It's too traumatic for some people to keep doing that.

I don't think we can decide for ourselves most of the time anyway, even those who suicide or unalive themselves, some attempts don't even work and people injure or maim themselves deliberately but they don't go, and end up worse off because they survive?! But then some are happy to be alive after a near death incident and there are always miracles that God can do, I mean all throughout the Bible God's chosen people faced certain death, but they managed to survive to live another day as testimony to God or live out their lives doing whatever God wanted them to do with their lives.

It just the unsaved ones who need a chance esp if they are young, youth suicide is really a tragedy when young ones can't see any future for themselves in the world we currently live in.

Jesus dying or being killed/crucified at age 33 seems far too young, but he accomplished much in his life with only 3 years or so of ministry, so sometimes the adage 'only the good die young' can be true, while the evil/wicked flourish like the bay tree and nobody can kill them off.

 

[Tall_Timbers]

My Living Will directed doctors to keep me alive at all costs no matter what, until I reached a certain age. At that age and after if I'm gonna die without being hooked up to medical devices then let me die. I do stipulate that I'm not to be denied water and morphine until I pass.

The age I picked had my youngest at age 25. I figured by then all my kids should be managing their own lives and losing me would be acceptable.

Beyond my Living Will there are life saving procedures I would decline. If I were to get cancer most of the current treatments they're administering are ones I would not put myself through. I've had my chest split open for open heart surgery. I don't think I would ever do that again as it took so much out of me. If I had X months or days to live I'd just use that time to get my affairs in order and transfer whatever liquid wealth I have directly to the wife and kids, and then leave detailed instructions on what needs to be done after I pass.

For others, if I knew their desires with regards to their situation, I would honor that. If I didn't know then if I was in a place to help I would try to keep them alive.

If any of my kids were in the hospital and they hadn't prepared a Living Will, that would be tough. I'd cross that bridge when I came to it.

 

[Delvianna]

I think my answer is pretty simple, God gave us the knowledge about medicine, so I don't see anything wrong with resuscitation. However, I think discernment is always needed here. Like, keeping someone on life support without brain activity, I think is a pretty poor decision to make. So I think in some instances, it's better to let go and let God.

 

[Bible_Locket]

It's a bit like that old quandary, why do Christians weep at the funerals of Christians?

God gives and takes life.

Everyone I know has a DNR.If they're declared brain dead,we do not want medical intervention.
Keeping the body oxygenated when the brain cannot function so to sustain the organs that maintain our living is a waste of time and money.

 

[Delvianna]

It's a bit like that old quandary, why do Christians weep at the funerals of Christians?

Because they're missed.

 

[seoulsearch]

It's a bit like that old quandary, why do Christians weep at the funerals of Christians?

God gives and takes life.

Everyone I know has a DNR.If they're declared brain dead,we do not want medical intervention.
Keeping the body oxygenated when the brain cannot function so to sustain the organs that maintain our living is a waste of time and money.

Because they're missed.

Something that always fascinated me as a kid in Lutheran school was that when Jesus was about to resurrect Lazarus, He still wept.

I couldn't understand why, because Jesus of all people knew the wonders of heaven and where Lazarus would be, so why would He be sad? And Jesus also knew that He was about to resurrect Lazarus from the dead, so why would He cry?

As I got older, I was told that Jesus was crying over the brokenness of the world, and the result of sin causing death and separation. I'm sure this is all part of how Jesus felt.

But I still go back to His reaction every time I'm told I should rejoice at someone's passing, and I'm feeling like anything but rejoicing.

I realize Jesus had a myriad of feelings behind His tears, and much more meaningful than any I might have.

If Jesus Himself didn't hold back His sorrow at the death of a loved one in this world, neither will I.

But, that's just me.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Because they're missed.

They're with Jesus.

 

[Bible_Locket]

Something that always fascinated me as a kid in Lutheran school was that when Jesus was about to resurrect Lazarus, He still wept.

I couldn't understand why, because Jesus of all people knew the wonders of heaven and where Lazarus would be, so why would He be sad? And Jesus also knew that He was about to resurrect Lazarus from the dead, so why would He cry?

As I got older, I was told that Jesus was crying over the brokenness of the world, and the result of sin causing death and separation. I'm sure this is all part of how Jesus felt.

Yet,when Jesus was God,all that the world is now after the fall was God's will.
Why cry when he made it so?

But I still go back to His reaction every time I'm told I should rejoice at someone's passing, and I'm feeling like anything but rejoicing.

My thought is,don't ever let anyone tell you how to feel after someone you care for passes.

Billy Graham reportedly,via his son's account,barely shed a tear when Ruth, Billy's wife,died.

She had died after suffering a prolonged illness. Now,she was at peace with Jesus.
That comforted Billy.

When my family members died,I cried. I'm selfish. I wanted them here to share our lives together. Though I was also relieved they weren't suffering their cancers anymore.

Death doesn't ask our permission.
Nor do we require anyone's permission in how we grieve.
Jmo.

I realize Jesus had a myriad of feelings behind His tears, and much more meaningful than any I might have.

If Jesus Himself didn't hold back His sorrow at the death of a loved one in this world, neither will I.

But, that's just me.

Well said.

 

[Delvianna]

They're with Jesus.

Yes but that doesn't make them any less missed.

 

[Dino246]

I know this doesn't directly answer the question, but I believe it should inform how we think about it:

Psalm 139:16
Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

I've thought on this verse often, most intensely when considering the impending death of a loved one or considering how to pray for someone who is ill or severely injured. I have come to the conclusion that it is to be taken at face value, and that there is NOTHING any human can do to shorten or lengthen a life. God has ordained each one to the day (and probably more exactly).

This has significant implications, and in a disordered mind it may lead to the conclusion that God ordains all the suffering and "premature" death and is therefore accountable for it. Instead I believe that God's sovereignty extends more widely and deeply than we normally think, and that He also foresees and knows what will happen without directly causing it to happen.

 

[Lanolin]

It was really weird for me to be told to be happy that my mum was dead. Wot, I wasn't allowed to grieve?

Anyway ...something I don't quite understand. It will be nearly a year next month, and I'm slowly getting my life back but I do still feel like life slowed down for me while caregiving, while everyone else is going at rat race pace.

Sometimes it's a mercy when there's a sudden death. But I'm not a coroner or a nurse or a paramedic, I'm sort of used to animals and plants dying, not people. I think we are at the stage where most boomers (post 1945) are now getting into their 80s and winding down into their twilight years. So lots of funerals, but they were the lucky generation of survivors that had cradle- to-grave welfare I don't think we'll see again.

Every so often I have First Aid Training for work and sometimes it changes over the years as they found out that doing CPR is more effective one way or another. I like to think I could help someone or at least get them comfortable before the ambulance arrives and takes over from there, but every situation is different.

I'll help someone up if they've fallen as much as I can.
One thing I don't quite get is organ donation, or donating blood. I have a somewhat rare blood type, that cant give, but can receive all others. But apparently plasma is just as important as blood, and my type is beneficial to all. I haven't donated any (yet)

 

[JohnDB]

Okay....
Apparently most of you have NOT been through this yet.
It is VERY VERY difficult to get a loved one (parent, spouse) into an extended care facility when they are dying but have a DNI/DNR.
People do not die "quickly" anymore....and medical interventions can keep them alive for months....no need to intubate or resuscitate.

Many of you have noticed that as we age our ability for cognition reduces and we operate on "autopilot"....a series of expressions and customary phrases we use to get by with....but in truth we arent really thinking through things anymore....when someone is terminal, unlike in the movies, they are on autopilot. They cannot think clearly at all and have very limited capacity to explain anything they say or do anymore....

However....the hospital doctors and nurses? They know precisely what the story is. They have numbers to keep up with. Nobody is supposed to die in their hospital....just because you have no hospice centers available is not relevant to them. They will patch up your loved one with whatever it takes to keep them alive and ship them out. (Blood transfusion, feeding tube, or whatever) They will not allow them to die there.

And despite our government's giving away of millions of dollars to hospice centers....they really don't exist. Not in sufficient supply. They dont advertise....hard to find them too. Hospitals absolutely dont know anything about them either. Not their job to know.
Your lack of ability to give proper skilled nursing care to your dying loved one? Nobody cares....nobody wants to care.
Death is disgusting....never does not come for us all. If possible....find your local hospice that really does exist.

And if you do not have family when your time comes....its gonna be worse than you can imagine.

 

[JohnDB]

Something that always fascinated me as a kid in Lutheran school was that when Jesus was about to resurrect Lazarus, He still wept.

I couldn't understand why, because Jesus of all people knew the wonders of heaven and where Lazarus would be, so why would He be sad? And Jesus also knew that He was about to resurrect Lazarus from the dead, so why would He cry?

As I got older, I was told that Jesus was crying over the brokenness of the world, and the result of sin causing death and separation. I'm sure this is all part of how Jesus felt.

But I still go back to His reaction every time I'm told I should rejoice at someone's passing, and I'm feeling like anything but rejoicing.

I realize Jesus had a myriad of feelings behind His tears, and much more meaningful than any I might have.

If Jesus Himself didn't hold back His sorrow at the death of a loved one in this world, neither will I.

But, that's just me.

Because Lazarus was moderately wealthy and his funeral was popular and well known....
This is ONE reason why Jesus wept....the other is because Jesus, exactly like God, is an emotional person....not an entity, a power, a magic pool to tap into....but a whole complete person and personality. (Something people often forget)

Also....Jesus knew what He was to do. (Ressurect his friend Lazarus) but also....doing that will shorten his own time remaining on Earth...."hanging with the homies"
And Jesus/God likes hanging out with us as one of us...and that time was rapidly coming to an end.
And Lazarus would have to experience death twice. Unpleasant at best. Just saying....nobody likes dying.

 

[cinder]

As to Lazarus and Jesus weeping, a close reading of the text (john 11) shows that Jesus had an emotional reaction to Mary's grief and that's when he wept. I kind of think he was weeping because of the pain he'd had to put Lazarus' sisters through as he really loved them too, but he didn't get to ride in and save the day and heal Lazarus. Instead he delayed in coming and let Lazarus die (and his sisters had to watch that and do the funeral, and now the man who'd been respinsible for taking care of them was gone, it's a lot of stuff they've been put through)

Anyway as far as myself, I keep saying that I have to outlive my parents and my dog (though now that she's 11 I think my if I died letter will be updated to say put her down rather than send her back to the shelter). Beyond that my biggest concern is more along the lines of who gets whatever is left of my stuff if my parents are already gone.

As for when my parents final days come, I think there will come a point to acknowledge that death is imminent and there's no reason to keep dragging it out, but before that, if there's a reasonable chance for them to resume their normal life then let's use what tech we can to help them get back to it.

 

[Karlon]

i've always said, "when i can't do what i'm doing now, i want to go to heaven"! my wife & i wish there to be no care if we become incapacitated or sick beyond reason.

 

[Lanolin]

Let me add that weeping, like laughing, can often be contagious, when someone tears up, someone else will follow as well. Jesus was likely weeping to comfort Mary who was also weeping.

We are meant to weep when others weep.

It's called empathy. Not everyone has it.
Some have sympathy but not everyone has empathy i.e can feel the feelings of others and really place themselves in the others shoes and understand what it's like to lose a brother.

I would think that when Jesus lost his cousin John the baptist in the most horrific way (he was beheaded) and couldn't be there to prevent it that he would have felt or understand what Mary was really feeling at the time.

 

[JohnDB]

Then theres ONE more answer.....
It centers on John The Baptist and why Jesus was so sad and had to go be by himself for a while.
Same as the original reason He went to the Wilderness after His Baptism.

"You who kill your own prophets" is a charge of guilt I recently was reminded about.
It's a horrible charge about having no character.

IOW your actions have become so obvious that the prophet of YOUR God has to remind you of YOUR laws that YOUR God has given you. All of this, both your God and your Laws are what sustains you to last longer than any civilization on the planet...
But for some dumb, self absorbed reason you as a people kill the messengers from your God because you don't like what He said?

And exactly how is God going to react to the killing of his prophets? It's not good. And yet Jesus is gearing up to die for these people...who kill their own prophets. Do as these prophets say and you have made the God of the Universe happy....but no....you kill them instead.

I'd have to go have some quiet time after John died too.

 

[Karlon]

Let me add that weeping, like laughing, can often be contagious, when someone tears up, someone else will follow as well. Jesus was likely weeping to comfort Mary who was also weeping.

We are meant to weep when others weep.

It's called empathy. Not everyone has it.
Some have sympathy but not everyone has empathy i.e can feel the feelings of others and really place themselves in the others shoes and understand what it's like to lose a brother.

I would think that when Jesus lost his cousin John the baptist in the most horrific way (he was beheaded) and couldn't be there to prevent it that he would have felt or understand what Mary was really feeling at the time.

very informative. you explain to the point.