Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Jude 1:3

My dear friends, I really wanted to write you about God’s saving power at work in our lives. But instead, I must write and ask you to defend the faith that God has once for all given to his people.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I think you were influenced by a false teacher --- in person, at a church, pastor, media or book.
The reason being The Bible was translated by those who believe in eternal punishment. Thus the natural reading of the text is for eternal punishment. Unless it is a bible produced by SDA or a Cult. The SDA version is known as Clear Word which was done by an individual, not by the SDA Church.
No I don't think so. One day about a year ago, I was reading the Bible and I realized that it never clearly states anyone is in eternal conscious torment aside from three people. People quote Revelation 20:10, but it can be proven that forever doesn't always mean forever. The debate for eternal torment always falls back to Revelation 20:10, but it literally says only three persons are tormented forever not all sinners. The Bible is packed full of dozens of verses that say the wicked are destroyed, perish, or are put to death.
 
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No Scripture? Of course not!
Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
What do you mean, "No Scripture? Of course not"???
I'm HAPPY to back up every thing I say with Scripture. What was it that I said for which you want a Scripture?

Keep in mind, I assume by just the mention of a verse or partial verse, everyone knows which passage I'm referring to. But, I assure you everything I say can be back up. So, which thing have I said do you need a Scripture?
 
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I suggest you study the Bible and see Who God is. God drowned all on Earth but 8 and burned Sodom alive "making them an example".

2 Peter 2:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction,
making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
How in the world does this undo anything I've said?
 

gb9

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What do you mean, "No Scripture? Of course not"???
I'm HAPPY to back up every thing I say with Scripture. What was it that I said for which you want a Scripture?

Keep in mind, I assume by just the mention of a verse or partial verse, everyone knows which passage I'm referring to. But, I assure you everything I say can be back up. So, which thing have I said do you need a Scripture?

you know, after getting proved wrong so many times, it would be classy to walk away....
 
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Friendly Challenge: The early church fathers were taught by the Apostles. List your doctrines and try to find them in the Early Church Fathers. Use newadvent.org with links to quotes you use, so others can check the context.
Here's just a small snip. There is A LOT more. As you can see, as you have false accused me of, conditional immortality or annihilationism, is not a cult teaching.

180 AD
"And therefore he who shall preserve the life bestowed upon him, and give thanks to Him who imparted it, shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it, and prove himself ungrateful to his Maker, inasmuch as he has been created, and has not recognised Him who bestowed [the gift upon him], deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever. And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever. "
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 4, paragraph 3

180 AD
"For as the heaven which is above us, the firmament, the sun, the moon, the rest of the stars, and all their grandeur, although they had no previous existence, were called into being, and continue throughout a long course of time according to the will of God, so also any one who thinks thus respecting souls and spirits, and, in fact, respecting all created things, will not by any means go far astray, inasmuch as all things that have been made had a beginning when they were formed, but endure as long as God wills that they should have an existence and continuance."
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 2, Chapter 34

335 AD
He brought them into His own garden, and gave them a law: so that, if they kept the grace and remained good, they might still keep the life in paradise without sorrow or pain or care besides having the promise of incorruption in heaven; but that if they transgressed and turned back, and became evil, they might know that they were incurring that corruption in death which was theirs by nature: no longer to live in paradise, but cast out of it from that time forth to die and to abide in death and in corruption.
Athanasius, on the Incarnation of the Word 3

335 AD
"The human race then was wasting, God’s image was being effaced, and His work ruined. Either, then, God must forego His spoken word by which man had incurred ruin; or that which had shared in the being of the Word must sink back again into destruction, in which case God’s design would be defeated."
Athanasius, on the Incarnation of the Word, chapter 6

~107-110 AD
"For this end did the Lord allow the ointment to be poured upon His head, that He might breathe immortality into his church. Be not anointed with the bad odour of the doctrine of the prince of this world; let him not lead you away captive from the life which is set before you. And why are we not all prudent, since we have received the knowledge of God, which is Jesus Christ? Why do we foolishly perish, not recognising the gift which the Lord has of a truth sent to us?"
Ignatius, letter to the Ephesians, Beware of false doctrines, chapter 17

~70-132 AD
"It is well, therefore, that he who has learned the judgments of the Lord, as many as have been written, should walk in them. For he who keeps these shall be glorified in the kingdom of God; but he who chooses other things shall be destroyed with his works. On this account there will be a resurrection, on this account a retribution. I beseech you who are superiors, if you will receive any counsel of my good-will, have among yourselves those to whom you may show kindness: do not forsake them. For the day is at hand on which all things shall perish with the evil [one]."
Epistle of Barnabas chapter 21

302 AD
"Do you dare to laugh at us when we speak of hell, and fires which cannot be quenched, into which we have learned that souls are cast by their foes and enemies? What, does not your Plato also, in the book which he wrote on the immortality of the soul, name the rivers Acheron, Styx, Cocytus, and Pyriphlegethon, and assert that in them souls are rolled along, engulfed, and burned up? But though a man of no little wisdom, and of accurate judgment and discernment, he essays a problem which cannot be solved; so that, while he says that the soul is immortal, everlasting, and without bodily substance, he yet says that they are punished, and makes them suffer pain.

But what man does not see that that which is immortal, which is simple, cannot be subject to any pain; that that, on the contrary, cannot be immortal which does suffer pain?"
Arnobius, Against the Heathen
 
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Well it was interesting discovering how SDA people interpret texts.
This isn't and exclusive "SDA interpretation" but your statement suggests you've only studied contemporary Christian doctrine, and haven't looked into church history to see what used to be taught.
I learned some things. I find it very easy to interpret the texts properly that they are misinterpreting and so I am not really persuaded that they themselves believe their own interpretations. Those scriptures are not hard to understand. Someone is not being honest. And when we recognize that, then we know we are wasting our breath trying to explain hermeneutics.
I feel the EXACT same way toward people who refuse to acknowledge the many Scriptural contradictions that erupt by making the Rich Man and Lazarus passage literal. They willfully ignore basic doctrines plainly taught elsewhere such as that the dead do not receive resurrection bodies UNTIL the resurrection, not when they die. We call that twisting Scripture.
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Are Sodom and Gomorrah still literally burning? Before you argue, "Yeah, spiritually in hellfire", I remind you that right there in your NEW TESTAMENT Peter plainly tells us the punishment of the wicked is now "reserved" for a time in the future "unto the day of Judgment" where they are "to be punished". Again, the Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment crowd willfully ignores Peter's words so that Hitler and Jeffery Dahmer and the Sodomites/Gomorrahmites are burning in hell right now, right or wrong?
To convince people who think that there is no judgment for the homosexaul agenda. Don't forget that God has demonstrated that he has intervened in human history making it know how he will deal with this sort of rebellion, and those that were killed in Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering in the flames of hell and one day those who are in hell will be raised bodily to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, as it says .. both Hell and Death will be cast into the Lake of Fire and that eternal fire will continue as their final place.
Who's trying to convince people there's no judgment? I'm trying to convince people that hell is HOTTER than the Christian world teaches, because while they teach the wicked will slow-simmer for all eternity, WE TEACH that the fire is so hot, it's going to burn them up and completely out of existence.
it is so clear that no one will be without excuse. Just like the rich mans brothers. And just like all SDA members. Their excuses will be rejected. The scriptures of the New Testament which was a greater revelation are not vague on this topic.
Let's get something straight: it is YOU who teach the lie of the Serpent that the dead really ain't "surely" dead. It is YOU who believe the Serpent told the truth and that God was lying. God said "ye shall SURELY die" but you guys teach, "Oh, they're dead all right - but not surely...they're still alive in joy above or in flames below". Total rubbish.
The SDA seems to take this approach... The New Testament Scriptures that give a fuller revelation about eternal punishment must mean something else because the OT writers did not have this revelation.
The approach we SDAs take on this issue is one of common sense: "eternal redemption" does not mean Jesus will be nailed repeatedly to a Cross to redeem us over and over, because "eternal" refers to the RESULT, not the PROCESS. Same for "eternal judgment" and "eternal salvation" which all refer to the RESULT, not the PROCESS. I've shown you that Sodom and Gomorrah were burnt with "eternal fire" but are presently NOT ON FIRE because the "eternal fire" with which those cities were burned refers to the RESULT of that fire, not the PROCESS of burning.
Which is really dumb. Most Christians understand that Jesus brought a fuller revelation about many things, including salvation and the kingdom of God and also about eternal punishment.
Look man, does the text say "eternal punishING" or eternal punishMENT"? It says "punishment"...but what is the punishment? Eternal torment? Do you believe Romans 6:23 or not? Obviously, most of the Christian world doesn't understand what they're reading, because the truth is they are NOT reading anything, they are regurgitating bulldookey preached by false pulpit prophets who themselves are blind guides leading the blind.
We don't contradict Jesus and Paul's teachings about the afterlife just because Solomon had a limited understanding. But the SDA does. And it is probably due to some kind of carnality in not being able to appreciate the holiness of God. An unwillingness to believe that it is just that the wicked are in eternal torment. That is usually at the heart of the objection.
What do you mean you don't contradict what Jesus said? Jesus said the dead don't rise until the resurrection, which at that time is when they get their resurrection bodies, but you teach the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have "literal" bodies in a "literal" passage about "literal" afterlife events. YOU CAN'T GET ANY MORE CONTRADICTORY THAN THAT, FRIEND.
 
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Unredeemed sinners will face everlasting fire in eternity...which is everlasting punishment...and which is characterized by "wailing and gnashing of teeth"

Matthew 25:41, Matthew 25:46, Matthew 13:41-42, Matthew 13:49-50,

It is not death, as you say...

The lake of fire is given its definition and description in Revelation 20:10,

Rev 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What you describe - eternal torment - is not "everlasting punishment", but "everlasting punishING".

The Bible teaches no such thing. It teaches "everlasting punishment"...but what is the punishment? '

IT'S DEATH!!! (Romans 6:23 KJV) Now, if you can find me a verse that teaches "everlasting punishING", I'll concede the argument ;)
 
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Wow! You read a lot into Genesis 2 that’s not there.
No, I just showed you how you've been reading it wrong all these years. The Soul exists ONLY as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life...SAYS IT RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU THAT THE SOUL ONLY BEGINS TO EXIST WHEN THESE TWO JOIN. Even a fool can see that once these to disjoin, the Soul cannot continue to exist.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
You can't take the symbolism of the most symbolic book in the Bible and make it literal while ignoring the several verses which say the dead are in total silence. We call that "twisting Scripture". Would you like me to post all the texts that say the dead are in "silence" and "darkness" and are devoid of "emotion" and "knowlege" and "wisdom" and "device" and do "no work"? I got 'em for anyone who's willing to be an honest scholar.
[QUOTE' Isaiah 10:18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth. [/QUOTE] Yes, the Soul is comprised of the Body and the Spirit. God is going to destroy the Body and the Soul, but the Spirit shall return to Him just as it was when it left Him, which means it don't LOOK like you, SMELL like you, SOUND like you, or has ANYTHING to do with you...it returns to Him just as it was when it went forth to enter your body and caused the Soul that is named John146 to begin to exist.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
See above response
 
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You are not able to hear Phoneman.

"Spiritual truths can only be spiritually discerned". That implies that in order to hear, ones spirit must have brought to life by God. I don't mean to criticise or denigrate you in any way, but I fear that is not your situation. I'll leave our discussion at that.
I assure you that anyone who has heard the truth that the wicked are not eternally tormented, but are annihilated, and refuses to accept the truth...it is they who are spiritually blind, usually because they have separated themselves from God through the indulgence of sin, and thus are left without Holy Spirit discernment.

Don't mean to denigrate or criticize either, friend. I pray you will come to believe God Who said, YE SHALL SURELY DIE" and not the Serpent who has convinced the entire Christian world that "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE...Y0U'LL DIE ALRIGHT, BUT YOU'RE NOT REALLY GOING TO BE DEAD - YOU'LL STILL BE ALIVE IN JOY ABOVE OR IN TORMENT BELOW, BUT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SURELY DIE."

I always ask why Christians are so scared of spending the night in a cemetery. They all know them folk are dead...but not surely, right?
 
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It's difficult to see what scripture really says when false teaching has been taught for a long time.
Too bad they aren't willing to accept truth as soon as they're confronted with it. They claim Paul as one of their champions of the faith, but they do not as Paul did.

When Paul's mind was completely blown when the voice came to him, "I am JESUS Whom thou art persecuting", Paul immediately accepted the truth. BUT, HOW INCREDULOUS WAS THAT TO HIM? It's the equivalent of Martin Luther crying out, "Who art thou?" and hearing the response, "It is I, the POPE".

Paul went immediately in the direction of truth, but these many here refuse to believe and will be fully deceived by "the spirits of devils working miracles" because they think the dead are still alive and conscious. Grandma and Grandpa will appear to them and tell them to believe the false Christ that has come impersonating Jesus and they will believe those lying demons that look "familiarly" like their dead loved ones instead of the Scriptures and there will be no mercy for them because they refused to "receive a love of the truth that they might be saved" so they will "believe a lie that they might be damned".
 
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Yes, because "sleep" means the body is inactive.
Yes, we call that "UNCONSCIOUSNESS" but for some reason, the Christian world thinks "sleeping saints" means something other than "unconscious", right or wrong?
 
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Yes. To be "in [someone's] bosom" means to be close to them, as in "by their side".
Lazarus "was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom" (a location).
The rich man saw that Lazarus was close to Abraham, just as Jesus was said to be "in the bosom of the Father".
So, Abraham's "literal" bosom must be many square miles in size if all the dead who've ever lived have gone there, right? :unsure:
 
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"""we must accept the passage for what it is: a parable in which things happen which cannot and do not happen in real experience"""

Are there other such meaningless "parables"?
Who said the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus has no meaning? You? Certainly not me. Watch the video is you'd like to see what Jesus' point of the parable is.
 
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The soul is the mind,will, and emotions.

It is clear those spirits in heaven and hell have all that.
Wrong...a "soul" is the WHOLE person, the "I", the "ego" the "self" the "whole being".

Why do "Christians" refuse to believe Genesis 2:7 KJV which says the Soul exists ONLY as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life?
 
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you know, after getting proved wrong so many times, it would be classy to walk away....
LOL I'd be bored with proving you wrong so much, but God's Gospel commission demands I stay in the fight so long as so many servants of Satan are out there spreading lies about what He said.
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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Yes, we call that "UNCONSCIOUSNESS" but for some reason, the Christian world thinks "sleeping saints" means something other than "unconscious", right or wrong?
"Unconsciousness" is a word we have invented to describe a state someone appears to be in from an outsider's point of view.
But the spirit is always awake; we dream when we sleep. But most people forget their dreams as soon as they wake up. This is confirmed in the psychological literature. Even when the body sleeps, the spirit is awake.
So, Abraham's "literal" bosom must be many square miles in size if all the dead who've ever lived have gone there, right? :unsure:
I already answered that. To be in someone's bosom means to be close to them. It's a common Hebrew idiom. To be "in Abraham's bosom" means to be in the place where Abraham is, because one would be near him.

For emphasis:
““But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God: ‘I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Issac, And the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”” (Matthew 22:31–32)​

Here, Jesus made the point that these patriarchs are examples of how people are living even while their body is "asleep". He is (currently) the God of Abraham, and He is (currently) the God of the living because Abraham is (currently) alive.

The rich man (and the rest of the wicked) are awake and disembodied (until their resurrection). They are who Peter referred to when he spoke of how Jesus "went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (1 Pet 3:19).
Torment (in Hades) is their prison until judgment day.
 

justbyfaith

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Just a bit down from your itchy ears
2 Tim 4:4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Even your trinitarianism does not even conform with the Athanasian creed
It does. While I emphasize the Oneness of the Lord in my teaching, I also do not deny the distinctions between the members of the Godhead.

But because I emphasize His Oneness, sometimes the three-ness in the Godhead may take the backburner; which may account for your misunderstanding.

as you make your own rules as I recall (modalist interpretations I believe), not to mention hell a eternal place of perpetual torture like the pagan folk. Things which are not said in and against the Scriptures. Making good bad and bad good.
The doctrine of eternal judgment in hell is not against the scriptures; it is a basic tenet of holy scripture (Hebrews 6:1-3).

All your statements are self-serving and unfit as doctrine. The logic behind your emotional notions are as inchoate as fog, suitable only for virtual swilling swine.
All my statements are based in sound doctrine.

Just a little down from your faith.
Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
The word states explicitly without exception God is One, God is Lord. The Word states explicitly without exception that our God is the God of Jesus. So no, your words are meaningless as the obey not the Scriptures. When the truth is not evident, dig a little deeper with the Good Book instead of the low hanging fruits of this english world.
Yes, God is one Lord.

There is even one Lord in holy scripture (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18).

Yet, no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Spirit of truth (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

And, Jesus is the one Lord of holy scripture (1 Corinthians 8:6).

I conclude that Jesus and the Father are the same Lord (1 Corinthians 12:5, 2 Corinthians 8:19).

In light of Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21, 2 Corinthians 6:17-18, can you say that Jesus is the Lord?

(I await your response)...

If you cannot, then you do not have the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv))...

And therefore you do not belong to Christ (Romans 8:9).

Of course, you can have the last word. I believe it was acceded to you at the last OP. But if you choose not to exercise this to avoid foolish talk then let us continue to avoid conceit.
No, I do not want the last word. As a matter of fact, I await your response to the question that I have asked of you.
 

Journeyman

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Last days deception.
The tares are burned after the mil.
Creation as we now know it will be ser ablaze at the return of our Lord Jesus. He said,

as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

meaning God sent a flood on the unrepentant,

Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pet.2:3-7

So our King reigns now. To those who reject his reign now he will say at his return,

But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and slaughter them in front of me!'"

The so called millennial reign of Christ is when he reigns over sinners in mercy and appoints ambassadors to do the same. When our sweet Savior returns, his reign in mercy over unrepentant sinners ends.