Is cessation an observation or theology?

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Your insistence that there be 'chapter & verse' in the Bible for a thing to be legitimate has its problems. While Scripture is our final authority, it is not the sole authority.
Experience is also an authority. And the experience of the Church is that the sign gifts ceased with the death of the Apostles.
The so called 'gifts' in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements are not the same as those in the New Testament.
That's not the experience of the church, and it is rather ignorant to say that.

Do a bit of reading. There have been numerous accounts of miracles throughout church history. You can also read about prophecy during the Ante-Nicene period. Ireneaus wrote of prophecy, miracles, tongues, foreknowledge, etc. in his day. He lived around 200 AD. He wrote 'Against Heresies' and considered rejecting prophecy to be a characteristic of the heresies.

There is other evidence for prophesying being done in the church in the second century. The Shepherd of Hermas refers to this.
The issue with the Montanists was not that the church had accepted cessationism. Rather, the Montanists prophesied in a way that was not in line with church tradition and practice. Eusebius recorded a lot of writings written before him. He recorded how that after Montanus died, a certain Miltiades noted that the Montanists could not produce prophets, though the church had the gift of prophecy, for the apostle wrote that the gift would continue until the Lord returned. This might have been an early interpretation of I Corinthians 13 or I Corinthians 1:7.

Though ironically, some of the Montanists might have been the I Corinthians 13 cessationists, since some of them may have considered Montanus, or what he brought, to be 'that which is perfect' in I Corinthians 13.

Eusebius also mentioned names of prophets Amnia and Quartus who were recognized as prophets prior to his writing.

There have been numerous claims and accounts of miracles throughout church history as well. And the Bible does not categorize some gifts as 'sign gifts.' What scripture at all do you have for the idea of gifts of the working of miracles or gifts of healing ceasing.


This is among the work of the Spirit in scripture:
I Corinthians 13
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Do you have the authority to overturn the teaching of scripture with the experience of the church... when you are wrong about the experience of the church?
 
I see no point in continuing this conversation. You obviously are not open to other perspectives. It must be reassuring to be so right.
 
Chapter and verses were not in the original text.
Chapter and verses were invented so that everyone could be on the same page and sentence.

"Perfect" back then meant mature.
You can Google it.

The temp gifts were given for the "baby stage" of the church when the NT was still being developed.
The Bible never needed to mature because it's God's Holy Word.

If someone says the clouds are white you will say silver. I understand from our previous conversations. Have a good day but that's not what Paul was referring to and you know it.
 
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Your insistence that there be 'chapter & verse' in the Bible for a thing to be legitimate has its problems. While Scripture is our final authority, it is not the sole authority.
Experience is also an authority. And the experience of the Church is that the sign gifts ceased with the death of the Apostles.
The so called 'gifts' in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements are not the same as those in the New Testament.
And yet the Church Fathers wrote about seeing them in their lifetime and it continues to even Calvin and Wesley mentioning such miraculous events and gifts. And we find more documentation from that period until late 1800s and early 1900s. And we're still seeing evidence today.

If you choose not to believe then do so. But when I see family members suffer from cancer that took them down to 80 lbs and we pray after the diagnosis was terminal and they're living today strong and healthy or aneurysms that normally kill you on the spot of occurrence or debilitate you for the rest of your life and we pray and within hours and a few days you're back running 5ks and living life as if nothing ever happened we see this because we believe it still happens.

I personally could care less if you believe or not because God understands what kind of person you are and just like Paul wrote about Speaking in Tongues: he wished everyone was doing it but he clearly knew many wouldn't believe.

You don't believe and just like Paul it doesn't matter because that's your choice. Enjoy your choice (y)
 
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And yet the Church Fathers wrote about seeing them in their lifetime and it continues to even Calvin and Wesley mentioning such miraculous events and gifts. And we find more documentation from that period until late 1800s and early 1900s. And we're still seeing evidence today.

If you choose not to believe then do so. But when I see family members suffer from cancer that took them down to 80 lbs and we pray after the diagnosis was terminal and they're living today strong and healthy or aneurysms that normally kill you on the spot of occurrence or debilitate you for the rest of your life and we pray and within hours and a few days you're back running 5ks and living life as if nothing ever happened we see this because we believe it still happens.

I personally could care less if you believe or not because God understands what kind of person you are and just like Paul wrote about Speaking in Tongues: he wished everyone was doing it but he clearly knew many wouldn't believe.

You don't believe and just like Paul it doesn't matter because that's your choice. Enjoy your choice (y)
Please read post #122.
 
Your insistence that there be 'chapter & verse' in the Bible for a thing to be legitimate has its problems. While Scripture is our final authority, it is not the sole authority.
Experience is also an authority. And the experience of the Church is that the sign gifts ceased with the death of the Apostles.
The so called 'gifts' in the Pentecostal/Charismatic Movements are not the same as those in the New Testament.
On the basis of my experience, I can assure you that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. Obviously you won't experience them because of your doubt and unbelief. That's fine, but don't go telling others that their experience is not genuine just because you don't have the same experience. They are not "so-called" gifts. They are genuine. And yes, there is much that is false as well. That does not diminish the real.
 
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On the basis of my experience, I can assure you that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased. Obviously you won't experience them because of your doubt and unbelief. That's fine, but don't go telling others that their experience is not genuine just because you don't have the same experience. They are not "so-called" gifts. They are genuine. And yes, there is much that is false as well. That does not diminish the real.
For your information, I was an Assemblies of God pastor. I spent 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement. I was a 'tongues' speaker. I HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE. I also experienced the spiritual abuse from leadership. The sexual miss conduct of 'Spirit filled Christians. Need I go on.
I came to a point where I asked the question, 'Is this really of God? 'Is this really what the Bible teaches'?
So I searched the Scriptures afresh and began to see the falsity and sham and I came to see the errors in Pentecostal theology.
So don't get on your 'high horse' and tell me about doubt and unbelief. You have idea.
 
For your information, I was an Assemblies of God pastor. I spent 20 years in the Pentecostal Movement. I was a 'tongues' speaker. I HAD THE SAME EXPERIENCE. I also experienced the spiritual abuse from leadership. The sexual miss conduct of 'Spirit filled Christians. Need I go on.
I came to a point where I asked the question, 'Is this really of God? 'Is this really what the Bible teaches'?
So I searched the Scriptures afresh and began to see the falsity and sham and I came to see the errors in Pentecostal theology.
So don't get on your 'high horse' and tell me about doubt and unbelief. You have idea.
So you had a moment of doubt and unlike those in the Bible you remained in doubt. That is quite obvious from your posts.
 
On the basis of my experience, I can assure you that the gifts of the Spirit have not ceased.
The claims of ongoing physical supernatural manifestations do not need your experiences to be assured.

This is the fundamental flaw in the Pentecostal Movement.

Example:
The claims of heavier than air flight do not need to be proven by personal experiences or physics textbooks. The claim is proven by prima facie. Just look up and see the planes.

We do not need to read about the experiences of the Wright Brothers.
 
The Bible never needed to mature because it's God's Holy Word.

Perfect also means "completed.

Besides....

The Bible is to be presented on different levels.
To the baby you do not give meat, but milk.

Why don't you know this?
 
Perfect also means "completed.

Besides....

The Bible is to be presented on different levels.
To the baby you do not give meat, but milk.

Why don't you know this?
Even though Holy Spirit Inspired is perfect, it's written in a personal viewpoint.

Example:
Paul wrote in Timothy that he, as in personal opinion...not Holy Spirit Inspired, did not believe a woman should preach.

Yeshua did nothing but lift up Mary M and she was known as an Apostle and was referred to as one. So Paul didn't get his opinion from Yeshua.

Some of the Bible is personal human opinion which doesn't mean perfect.
 
Even though Holy Spirit Inspired is perfect, it's written in a personal viewpoint.

Example:
Paul wrote in Timothy that he, as in personal opinion...not Holy Spirit Inspired, did not believe a woman should preach.

Yeshua did nothing but lift up Mary M and she was known as an Apostle and was referred to as one. So Paul didn't get his opinion from Yeshua.

Some of the Bible is personal human opinion which doesn't mean perfect.

It was recorded perfectly as God wanted it to be made known.
That was perfect.
 
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It was recorded perfectly as God wanted it to be made known.
That was perfect.
But it's still not as perfect as Jesus which we have a list as long as a library from Church Fathers and the history of the Church leaders proclaim.