Is cessation an observation or theology?
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I've heard/read some bizarre overstatements of this, and analysis of this, most recently about John MacArthur's assertions.
The Greek middle is frequently used for certain verbs. It is best not to try to exaggerate the theological significance of the mediopassive for some of these verbs.
They could also be unknown languages (not referring to the italicized KJV word, btw) in I Corinthians 14. Paul gave teaching on the need for interpretation because others present may not understanding speaking in tongues.
Paul mentions tongues of men and of angels. The emphasis on the early Pentecostal movement was more on human languages, I think. I've read that Agnes Ozman spoke Chinese. Dr. Vinson Synan said that it was confirmed by someone in a Chinese laundry according to 'some of their papers.' I don't know his source. (He passed away several years ago.) He was basically the founder of the field of Pentecostal historical studies.
Of course The Apostolic Times newsletter records many accounts of people understanding speaking in tongues in their own languages. Synan interviewed two individuals who were children at the Azusa Street Revival. The interview is available on YouTube. One of them said that what drew people to the revival was people hearing their own languages spoken 'in tongues', such as Japanese. I know of two books that tell of similar events. There have been a number of similar testimonies from Assemblies of God missionaries, from the early Charismatic movement. I know of two books that record accounts. I have got one somewhere. I've also known a number of individuals who either heard a language they knew 'in tongues' or else spoke in tongues and others understood.
Now, there could be fake tongues. F.F. Bosworth, who was at the Azusa Street Revival, was concerned about this. He warned some unscrupulous preachers would tell people to say 'Glory, glory' really fast. When they got tongue tied, he'd say "You got it." Pentecostalism has historically grown among uneducated people in an emotional type culture, and I've seen (and heard Pentecostal preachers preach against) one person grabbing another's jaw to try to make them speak in tongues. I've seen Charismatics use what felt like intense social pressure to try to extract tongues.
I've also seen a WOF preacher tell people not to think anything and say 'whatever bubbles up out of your spirit' while others are instructed to speak in tongues around them. This was in a church subculture overseas where it seemed like everyone in the room would speak in tongues and say 'bababa' or 'bada bada bada'. I noticed because I didn't speak in tongues when they said to do so, en masse, out of a desire to obey scripture. If you blank your mind, say whatever pops in your head, you might say 'bada bada' and the people around you say, "You got it." Does anything supernatural have to happen.
I am a bit concerned that 'initial evidence doctrine' and the idea that everyone can potentially speak in tongues, social pressure, and the set up, could lead to some 'psychological tongues'--- free association type stuff. And I also realize that Paul says nothing at all in the way of warning that speaking in tongues might be fake. So I don't want to be overly skeptical and open (but discerning) of tongues and interpretation in the meetings.
Another concern I have is that some Pentecostal churches don't have a culture of allowing tongues and interpretation and prophecy 'from the floor', anymore... shutting down what level of following scripture they had about church meetings. There is also the practice of encouraging speaking in tongues en mass, at the same time, with no interpretation, a practice where by one person is not edifying another.
That being said, speaking a language one doesn't know naturally... is supernatural. Two people getting the same interpretation of tongues (which happens) is likely supernatural. There is a lot of supernatural stuff going on with prophecy as well. These things could be genuine or fake.
Im not sure what you’re saying on this part - “Today, no such thing is possible.
For it was to be a sign to the Jewish unbelievers. "This people."
Are you saying that it is impossible to speak in tongues today? Surely I’m missing something.
The first part was so good.
Again, it has to be stressed, JUST BECAUSE IT IS SUPERNATURAL, ITS DOES NOT FOLLOW THAT IT IS GOD.
What a bizarre argument. Unbelieving Jewish people still exist. If you read Romans 11, blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. So if this your argument, why would you believe speaking in tongues would cease before Gentiles stopped being converted and Israel became believers en masse?
As for how Paul actually applied the passage, he applied it to an unbeliever or an uninstructed person coming in who hears speaking in tongues and says 'ye are mad.' He doesn't say the individual has to be Jewish.
After all, centuries before, the northern kingdom had already been taken into captivity by Assyrians who marched them out naked into captivity, barking orders at them in a foreign language. 'And yet for all that ye will not hear Me.' And then Paul's application has to do with the unbeliever, etc. hearing speaking in tongues and saying 'ye are mad'-- responding with unbelief, as contrasted to the one who hears prophecy and prostrates and declares that God is truly among you.
We need to follow the flow of Paul's argument and the point he actually makes in the text rather than try to make a prooftext out of this.
But the way you are using it... Jews still exist, so no, it is not possible for tongues to occur the way you describe, since 'this people' still exists and much of it is still blinded and still in rebellion to this day.
We also need to read the context. For believers, divers tongues along with interpretation, tongues is among the manifestations given to the body for the common good. But to unbelievers it is a sign to them that believe not.
It is reported that the occult has that kind of experience.
That is why it is not something to play with after Scripture says they are to end.
Google the following, please. During exorcisms there is a speaking in tongues.
Since my mother in-law is a linguist that once taught for the University of Illinois I would say that I find it encouraging that she said you can hear the general building blocks to language formation. This is the key significance to all languages and what ties whether something is human or not.
So would you accuse the apostles because of reports of such activity in the occult-- reports not found in scripture.
I suppose demons know multiple languages.
It does not make sense to view the coming of the perfect as a past event.
Linguists would have difficulty with:
1. Tongues of angels, unless they had enough of a representative sample of angelic language from interviews and sessions with angels to confidently know the structure of angelic language. The assumption these linguists have is that the field has uncovered the variables by which human language is inflected for meaning.
2. Short, repeated phrases. It would be difficult to know if 'to God be the glory' in some language repeated over and over again is human language if there were no cognates with other known languages.
3. The speaker's accent. if the speaker spoke the language in his own accent, that might hinder some types of research.
I have a degree in Linguistics btw, but no graduate work in that field.
Come on back.
You just wandered off in to the fields.
This is why I said what I did.
But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues,
they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
Some today would have us to believe that is a lie.
Some today would interpret the verses consistently with the verses that follow and the rest of the book.
No one is saying that they are to 'play with'. Scripture does not say they have ceased. Address my post please on 'so that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1:7).
Why would Paul weite that if the gifts he was just about to write about would cease before Jesus came? That idea doesn't fit the passage.
Paul gives no warnings of tongues being occult. He says to earnestly desire spiritual gifts and not to forbid speaking in tongue.
If then there is not demonic speaking in tongues, the Mormons, Animists and other non-Christion groups who speak in tongues have the genuine thing?
I suppose demons can speak other languages. They spoke something for people to understand them in the first century (Greek, Aramaic, etc.)
That is not my point. Paul does not warn Christians to watch out for that speaking in tongues because it might come from a demon. That just isn't addressed when the issue comes up in scripture.
Or they're doing it by their own abilities which is probably the case more often than none.
Why do you assume that the Bible is the basis for cessation of gifts? That's an unproveable assumption. Do you not know God's word really says, "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word coming out of the mouth of God" You believe that God has stopped talking to His people? I can assure you that He has not. You may as well say that because we have the Bible, God no longer answers prayer. You may as well say that Lord Jesus is the Word of God, so we do not need the Bible. Correlation does not imply causation.
With the state of what calls itself church today (pathetic), Christians need all the help that they can get.
Demons can counterfeit all the gifts. Fortune telling mimics prophecy, for example. And for sure some demons speak in tongues. I've heard it. It's bad. And some people just babble away, self deceived. I've heard that too. But the real thing can be a tremendous blessing. I've experienced that too.
What demons cannot counterfeit is fruit. The high priestly garment had a gold bell and a pomegranate sown alternately around the hem. This represents gifts and fruit.
Even when someone is not showing fruit, that person's gift will still be in operation. (Romans 11:29) Some "gifted" people do not live the kind of life that could be expected; Solomon probably the best example of that. And if I had to choose, gift or fruit, I'd choose fruit every time.
What about tongues of angels? Do you know what they speak? On the day of Pentecost, you are right. What was Paul talking to the Church of Corinth about?
Why should Paul say they will cease, if they were to do so when Christ returns?
It would just happen, and end. No need to explain.
Paul wrote what he did to make it known why they shall cease before Christ returns.
Why do you need them, knowing what they enable, once you're with Yeshua when He Returns?
Of course that's when they end.
Re-write that please?
Here is what I said:
Why should Paul say they will cease, if they were to do so when Christ returns?
It would just happen, and end. No need to explain.
Paul wrote what he did to make it known why they shall cease before Christ returns.
Here is your somewhat confusing unclear response...
Please clear it up?
Why do you need them, knowing what they enable, once you're with Yeshua when He Returns?
Paul was saying we were to stop needing them before Christ returns.