Is cessation an observation or theology?

[TrustandObey]

All I can agree on is that this thread is a click bait, the grievance in the OP has nothing to do with "cessationism", which is a denial of God's general revelation in nature, both mother nature and human nature.

The OP (which I suspect you have not read) labels cessationism as an observation of the lack of supernatural physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit as it was during the age of New Testament.

I agree with the OP that we are not living in such an age.

Do you also agree?

 

[Lovette]

The OP (which I suspect you have not read) labels cessationism as an observation of the lack of supernatural physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit as it was during the age of New Testament.

I agree with the OP that we are not living in such an age.

Do you also agree?

No, I don't. The supposed "lack of supernatural physical manifestations" is the result of "disenchantment" and "disillusionment" in the age of enlightenment, such manifestations are either mocked, ignored or intellectualized through scientific theories, yet they still exist. You know, the devil once mocked such a charlatan - "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?"

 

[lrs68]

Not simply the words we read translated into English.
The Greek tenses reveal it.

One excellent resource appears to be still available at present.

First Corinthians | Bible Doctrines to Live By

www.bibledoctrines.org

View attachment 288909



Ernest R. Campbell Commentary First Corinthians

Lol using a Reformed Baptist Theologian as a reference for Cessation is no different than using a Charismatic Bible Scholar for Continuation.

You prove nothing but reveal your deep seeded biasness.

 

[presidente]

You are fooling no one by sidestepping the issue.

Again, the question is not "have to be added" the question is can it be added to scripture?

The etymology of the English word "canon" is a strawman.

If the Holy Spirit gives us a prophetic message should it not be given the due respect of scripture?

Can you give an example of the prophetic words of the Holy Spirit given to Pentecostal that equal scripture?

You need to understand what the Bible is. The New Testament is the writing of the apostles in the early and their closest associates that communicate the Daring revealed by Christ and to the apostles through the Holy Spirit.

It is not every prophecy the Holy Spirit has given.

If you will do a bit of study about second century Christianity apparently had prophesying in the church during that era also. Read Eusebius ecclesiastical he's history and he includes quotes about the church having prophecy. The quote from Miltiades may have been late third or early fourth century.

 

[presidente]

You are fooling no one by sidestepping the issue.

I would also point out this quote is an example of being obnoxious.

 

[Fillan]

Today apostles are called missionaries. "Missionary is the Latin translation of the word the English Bible translates as apostle. The only reason the so-called apostolic gifts have ceased is doubt and unbelief. Derek Prince exercised the gifts of healing and deliverance routinely. There are many videos of meetings where he taught and ministered those gifts. I had the joy of attending one of his meetings. He commanded deliverance and prayed and some were healed.

​

Hello Gideon, good to hear from you. Where I would disagree with your viewpoint is in two places.

Firstly, take for example the Missionary/teacher. When the Apostle Paul wrote a letter to the church in Galatia, this letter is considered to be part of scripture, on the same level as God himself speaking. The letter to the Galatains is the word of God on the same level as the stone tablets that God wrote with his own finger. Every word of God is flawless and The word of God is perfect, as the bible says in numerous places like Proverbs 30 and Psalm 19. However when a modern missionary or Christian speaker sends a letter it isn't considered to be part of scripture, it isn't flawless, it isn't added to the Canon. Every Christian teacher today has obvious flaws, they don't achieve the standard of perfection that the word of God has, they contradict themselves, scripture, each other, they embellish, they get things clearly wrong. Derek Prince, my Auntie was really into him and yes, as above, his practices and teachings had obvious flaws, not to say his ministry was bad but it didn't attain the standard required for the Apostolic IMHO.

Secondly there were missionaries and teachers in the New Testament who weren't Apostles. These terms are distinct.

God Bless You.

 

[Fillan]

You need to understand what the Bible is. The New Testament is the writing of the apostles in the early and their closest associates that communicate the Daring revealed by Christ and to the apostles through the Holy Spirit.

It is not every prophecy the Holy Spirit has given.

If you will do a bit of study about second century Christianity apparently had prophesying in the church during that era also. Read Eusebius ecclesiastical he's history and he includes quotes about the church having prophecy. The quote from Miltiades may have been late third or early fourth century.

Hello. I hope you're having a good day. Where I would perhaps disagree with your viewpoint is similar to where I disagreed with Gideon's above.

Take the writings of St Paul for instance, 2 Peter 3:16 says that the writings of Paul are part of scripture. That is perfect, pure, flawless, on the same level as God himself speaking. Paul's doctrine was correct and sound, he was an Apostle of God.

Eusebius taught intercession for the dead and other blatantly false doctrines. What he says isn't pure, it isn't flawless, it's possibly tainted. Any prophecies he gave or recorded are not flawless as bible prophecy is. Studying him on the same level as scripture, we're entering a minefield that we don't need to enter.

Please consider a scenario- you're walking through a desert. You have a flask of the purest spring water in your hand. You stop at a pool where there is water which may or may not contain tainted water, but by the hoofprints in the water it's likely it contains animal waste. You pour out half the flask of the pure spring water out into the sand and refill the flask with the possibly tainted water.

We have the pure word of God and then we have screeds of contradictory writings and teachings and prophecies. I would suggest we should keep our attention on what is pure and sure.

It's good to be careful with what is being taught in God's name, we should be cautious because the bible says we should expect false teachers and false prophets:-

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

God Bless You, have a good day ahead

 

[Fillan]

And I suggest you distinguish objective signs and wonders from snake oils with a Christian facade.

Hello Lovette. Yes it's good to be cautious, to test everything and pray carefully. The Lord warned of false prophets coming, so we should be careful and alert:

Matthew 24:34 For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

God Bless You, have a good day

 

[Genez]

So, base doctrine on no scripture at all? Just get a chart and write 'church age' on it, and base doctrine on that, right?

Show me where the Bible mentions 'the church age' and the other aspects of the doctrine you promoted in your post above.

The Tribulation will not be in the Church age, any more than the age of Israel was in the Church age.

Before the Church age took place?
It was a hidden and a mystery!
The Church age took everyone by surprise!

Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking
in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of
God in its fullness— the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but
is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. Colossians 1:24-26


So it is .......

.....

 

[JimiSurvivor]

We need to get the timeline as to when Paul wrote that.

I Corinthians circa 50-55 AD

At the time of I Corinthians?
Most of the NT had not yet been written!
That is why... They only could know in part!
That is why they need the gifts to fill in the blanks.


Revelation circa 90-96 AD
That was when the perfect (completed) arrived!

So we are back to the idea that the PERFECT refers the completion of the canon of scripture. There is absolutely no evidence that Paul had prior knowledge that the Holy Spirit was going to inspire a number of writings which would eventually be assembled into the set of writings Christians would call the New Testament.

If he had possessed specific prophetic knowledge of that event (which he never mentioned) then the gender of the adjective PERFECT would have needed to be in agreement with the NOUN it was DESCRIBING. For instance, had the Apostle been referring to the completion of the SCRIPTURES [which is a feminine noun] or the book we call the BIBLE [which is a masculine noun] then the adjective PERFECT would have to be either in the feminine or masculine gender too. Instead, the ADJECTIVE PERFECT is in the NEUTER gender. This shows that what Paul was talking about was the general STATE of perfection or completeness which would arrive some time in the future --- most likely when Jesus comes again and brings the fullness of His kingdom to earth. That is when we will have unveiled FACT TO FACE knowledge of Him.

 

[legion]

Paul expressed that reality when he wrote Titus 2:11-12.

For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.​

It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to ​

live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.​

I love how my pastor always taught us from the original languages of Scripture.
When it came to Titus 2:12, he took time to show us that the word translated "teaches,"
means as seen in...
"It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions."

"Teaches" is not what we would assume it to mean when reading from an English translation.

It did not mean to teach, as a teacher in a classroom setting would teach, in regard to what we should refuse and deny.
It is actually a word about tough love.

For the word translated 'teaches"'means to teach someone a lesson by having him to get hurt by what he does.
In doing so… Learning to not do it anymore.
Having learned to say "No" if it should come our way again!

Tough love, over time, is there to make living become easier for us.

Grace and peace .............

I'm not 100% sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me but my premise is this: and it may not be the best example but...

If a drug addict needs $10 presumably to eat or whatever they say giving that person $10 is not a good idea and will hurt them the fact is they don't have $10 because they blew it on drugs or they simply want the new $10 so they can blow it on drugs.

I say this from personal experience in being a drug addict anyone who was giving me money was aiding and abetting me being an addict and had it not been for those around me cutting me off from finances I would have never hit bottom and learn the lesson.

 

[Genez]

So we are back to the idea that the PERFECT refers the completion of the canon of scripture. There is absolutely no evidence that Paul had prior knowledge that the Holy Spirit was going to inspire a number of writings which would eventually be assembled into the set of writings Christians would call the New Testament.

Paul wrote that God gave him revelations concerning the Church.

Paul knew that there was more to come!

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.​

​

1 Corinthians 13:9​

 

[Genez]

I'm not 100% sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me but my premise is this: and it may not be the best example but...

If a drug addict needs $10 presumably to eat or whatever they say giving that person $10 is not a good idea and will hurt them the fact is they don't have $10 because they blew it on drugs or they simply want the new $10 so they can blow it on drugs.

I say this from personal experience in being a drug addict anyone who was giving me money was aiding and abetting me being an addict and had it not been for those around me cutting me off from finances I would have never hit bottom and learn the lesson.

Well? Did you learn to say "No" to drugs?

That was God's grace teaching you to say "No" by making you sick of what were doing and to hate it.

 

[Gideon300]

Hello Gideon, good to hear from you. Where I would disagree with your viewpoint is in two places.

Firstly, take for example the Missionary/teacher. When the Apostle Paul wrote a letter to the church in Galatia, this letter is considered to be part of scripture, on the same level as God himself speaking. The letter to the Galatains is the word of God on the same level as the stone tablets that God wrote with his own finger. Every word of God is flawless and The word of God is perfect, as the bible says in numerous places like Proverbs 30 and Psalm 19. However when a modern missionary or Christian speaker sends a letter it isn't considered to be part of scripture, it isn't flawless, it isn't added to the Canon. Every Christian teacher today has obvious flaws, they don't achieve the standard of perfection that the word of God has, they contradict themselves, scripture, each other, they embellish, they get things clearly wrong. Derek Prince, my Auntie was really into him and yes, as above, his practices and teachings had obvious flaws, not to say his ministry was bad but it didn't attain the standard required for the Apostolic IMHO.

Secondly there were missionaries and teachers in the New Testament who weren't Apostles. These terms are distinct.

God Bless You.

"What is a missionary? "The word missionary comes from the Latin word mitto, which means "to send." It is the equivalent of the Greek word apostello, which also means "to send." The root meaning of the two words is identical (Herbert Kane, The Making of a Missionary, ISBN: 081053587, p. 13).

If not for the Latin Vulgate, missionaries would still be called apostles. Barnabus was an apostle. He was called at exactly the same time as Paul, known as Saul at the time.

"While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Acts 13:2

Confusion about the role of apostle is common. Many do not understand that the founding apostles were not the only ones. Yes, they are highly significant. But they all passed away. The work of spreading the gospel and teaching the flock of God did not come to an end with them. The need for apostles did not end with their deaths either.

 

[Lovette]

Hello Lovette. Yes it's good to be cautious, to test everything and pray carefully. The Lord warned of false prophets coming, so we should be careful and alert:

Matthew 24:34 For there shall arise false christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

God Bless You, have a good day

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:18-22)

 

[TrustandObey]

No, I don't. The supposed "lack of supernatural physical manifestations" is the result of "disenchantment" and "disillusionment" in the age of enlightenment, such manifestations are either mocked, ignored or intellectualized through scientific theories, yet they still exist. You know, the devil once mocked such a charlatan - "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?"

You say you don't agree with the OP but your words seem to say the opposite.

You state: "You know, the devil once mocked such a charlatan - "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you?"

The OP is about the false claims of the Pentecostal movement, they are the "charlatans" you are speaking about.

Are these not your words:

"snake oils with a Christian facade"
"those claims" are just claims, it's their fault of making unsubstantiated claims"
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Did you honestly read the OP?

 

[Lovette]

Did you honestly read the OP?

Why do you care so much?

 

[legion]

Well? Did you learn to say "No" to drugs?

That was God's grace teaching you to say "No" by making you sick of what were doing and to hate it.

yeah I quit but that was predicated upon my family not supporting me financially and letting me hit the bottom it was truly tough love

 

[lrs68]

presidente said:
"Because the scripture shows that God empowered people to do miracles and gave spiritual gifts in the past, that proves that He does not do so today?"

This is a false dichotomy, im assuming you know this.

Agreed, for one it doesn't match the claim that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[Lamar]

such manifestations are either mocked, ignored or intellectualized through scientific theories

Are you bonkers???

The blind are given sight, the dead are raised to life and the lame are healed right under our noses but it is being ignored???

How deep is the ditch that you are living in?