Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Gideon300]

Where does scripture say that the gift of healing is past?

Prophesying is mentioned in Revelation, also.

Where does scripture designate certain gifts as 'sign gifts'?

The usually quoted verse is Mark 16:17 & 18
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well.”…

My understanding is that anyone who is born again has the same authority and power. Some realise it and exercise the authority and power and many do not.

 

[Gideon300]

It is interesting to study some Church history. Impartial observers of the so called "Azuza Street Revival" the birth place of the Pentecostal Movement, saw many instances of people running around in circles, others rolling on the floor barking like dogs. Instances of demonic manifestation which its leaders considered the Holy Spirit.
I could go on. From the very beginning, The Pentecostal Movement was questionable. That is why so many godly, evangelical leaders stood against it at the time.
.

Agree 100%. However, it is not unusual, unfortunately, for the false to infiltrate the real. While not as extreme, the Welsh revival had some similar issues.

Pentecostals especially have little discernment between demonic and genuine manifestations of the Holy Spirit. An AOG pastor I much respected fell victim to the so-called Toronto Blessing. He was a great help to me in my early Christian life. I met him again many years after he moved away from where I lived. He was mixed up in the TB, yet he still had an accurate and helpful word of knowledge for me. What he said proved to be accurate over the years.

​

 

[Aussie52]

There are people who truly have the gift of healing. Derek Prince was one. He also routinely ministered deliverance from bondage to evil spirits. The two often go hand in hand. I cast out evil spirits myself from time to time. It is no big deal. Everyone who is born again has that power and authority.

There are also way too many charlatans and the self deceived.

There can be blockages to healing. Some believers have attitude problems and God allows them to suffer sickness. Paul talks about them to the Corinthians. He rebuked them for their mishandling of Communion. Some even died because of their wrong attitudes.

Lord Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick - all who came to Him. There are many people who would rather be ill than submit to the Lordship of Christ. That's terrible because they miss out on the best possible life, the abundant life that Jesus came to give us. My youngest brother was one such man. He refused prayer and died well before his time.

Satan hates the miraculous. He hates it even more when people are delivered from evil spirits. And deliverance is at the heart of the Kingdom of God. (Matthew 12:28). If we want to see the Kingdom of God on this earth then we'd better get back to casting out demons. (Evil spirits and demons are the same thing).​

In regard to the ministry of Derek Prince, I once read an article of a medical missionary in East Africa, where Derek was holding meetings. Out of interest, she went along for the meetings held over a period of a week. Each night people went out to be prayed for by Derek. At these meetings, Derek announced that 'hundreds were being healed every night.
After the series of meetings were over, she went to the different Churches in the city to find out how many people there were who had been healed. She could not find a report of a single one.
She visited all the medical doctors in the city to find out if any of their patients had been healed at Derek's meetings. She could not find a single incidence of someone being healed. She also contacted the local newspapers and found the same result.
So, for all the announcements that 'hundreds' had been healed, there was no evidence to back it up at all.

The medical missionary was affiliated with a reputable Missionary Society, and this article was reported in the Banner periodical.

 

[Anchorite]

In regard to the ministry of Derek Prince, I once read an article of a medical missionary in East Africa, where Derek was holding meetings. Out of interest, she went along for the meetings held over a period of a week. Each night people went out to be prayed for by Derek. At these meetings, Derek announced that 'hundreds were being healed every night.
After the series of meetings were over, she went to the different Churches in the city to find out how many people there were who had been healed. She could not find a report of a single one.
She visited all the medical doctors in the city to find out if any of their patients had been healed at Derek's meetings. She could not find a single incidence of someone being healed. She also contacted the local newspapers and found the same result.
So, for all the announcements that 'hundreds' had been healed, there was no evidence to back it up at all.

The medical missionary was affiliated with a reputable Missionary Society, and this article was reported in the Banner periodical.

This is just your memory of an article you once read. The medical missionary is not named. The medical missionary may have been biased against divine healing. The missionary society is not named. The city in East Africa is not named. There is no link to any documentation verifying this report. There is no evidence to back it up at all.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

So the Pentecostals and their sort are raising the dead, they are giving sight to the blind, their glossolalia is real languages and they are certainly healing the lame.

And you call me a liar, hateful, angry and a buffoon. Well then.

Now I understand why the roofs of the Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced.

I have another explanation for why the "roofs of Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced" - the universal Law of Entropy. Things, always proceed towards disorder. I think this is far more reasonable than anything you have implied in this post. You know, it might be the reason why, sooner or later, the roofs of almost every Church will need to be repaired.

 

[frederickdoc]

I agree with your assessment about the argument. But when Christ says that he is the manna from heaven, he doesn't mean this to be a literal statement as you already know. His statement is a metaphor and it relates to the purpose of bread. Just as bread sustains our physical life, Jesus sustains our life in the next age.

Thats the king gift but he didn't forget the wine

 

[TrustandObey]

I have another explanation for why the "roofs of Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced" - the universal Law of Entropy. Things, always proceed towards disorder. I think this is far more reasonable than anything you have implied in this post. You know, it might be the reason why, sooner or later, the roofs of almost every Church will need to be repaired.

Oh please tell me you understand the reference to Mark 2:4 that Lamar is pointing to.

 

[Roger316]

Thats the king gift but he didn't forget the wine

Thank you for sharing that. I think I see what you’re pointing toward — that Jesus didn’t only speak of Himself as the bread from heaven, but also used the image of wine to show the fullness of His gift. Even if I’m not catching every nuance because of translation, I appreciate the heart behind what you’re saying. Jesus gives Himself completely, both as the bread that gives life and the wine that brings joy.

I want to make sure I understand your point correctly. When you mentioned the wine, were you thinking about another symbol Jesus used—like how bread and wine together show the fullness of His gift? I’d love to hear a little more about what you meant, so I don’t miss the heart of what you’re saying.

 

[Gideon300]

In regard to the ministry of Derek Prince, I once read an article of a medical missionary in East Africa, where Derek was holding meetings. Out of interest, she went along for the meetings held over a period of a week. Each night people went out to be prayed for by Derek. At these meetings, Derek announced that 'hundreds were being healed every night.
After the series of meetings were over, she went to the different Churches in the city to find out how many people there were who had been healed. She could not find a report of a single one.
She visited all the medical doctors in the city to find out if any of their patients had been healed at Derek's meetings. She could not find a single incidence of someone being healed. She also contacted the local newspapers and found the same result.
So, for all the announcements that 'hundreds' had been healed, there was no evidence to back it up at all.

The medical missionary was affiliated with a reputable Missionary Society, and this article was reported in the Banner periodical.

I see your anecdote and raise you with Kurt Koch. Mr Koch was an expert in the realm of the occult. He wrote "The Devil's Alphabet" and a number of books regarding the occult, including how to be delivered.

Mr Koch was something of sceptic when it came to supernatural manifestations. Around the time I was saved, there was a revival in Indonesia. It made quite a stir at the time. I read some of the accounts of miracles. Kurt Koch decided to check out the reports for himself. The long story short, he confirmed that many miracles were genuine and that healing indeed took place. His conclusion was the the revival and accompanying signs and wonders were genuine.

People have told me that they have found no evidence or confirmed reports of diving healing. I say, "You have not spoken to me". The usual response from the doubters is to dismiss my experience. I was healed instantly, twice, in one day.

It's not just me. I had a friend in the Navy. He left to become a minister, but it did not work out. He was the worst driver I've ever met. He somehow got his licence and decided to drive from Sydney to Melbourne. He did not make it. The Hume Highway in those days was only two lanes in quite a few stretches.

A few k's outside of Holbrook, he had a head on with a semi. The impact broke his seat belt and threw him through the windscreen. I saw the bruises on his chest, his broken and slashed arm and unrecognisable face. I saw his car dumped in a paddock. it was a Morris 1100. The engine pushed the firewall hard up against the front seat.

The truck driver saw Mike standing on the side of the road with a jumper against his neck. He suffered a cut artery. This was well before mobile phones. It took 20 minutes to get Mike to Albury base hospital. The Ambos booked him in DOA.

The Lord enabled me to meet the worker (wardsman these days) who took Mike to the ward. He was cutting off Mike's blood soaked clothes when Mike made a faint noise, like a scream. That led to emergency action and massive blood transfusions. By a miracle, Mike survived and in a few weeks was up and about.

The wardsman was a member of the local AOG and prayed for Mike. What is also miraculous is that the wardsman realised that there was a sign of life. It is not unusual for air to be in the lungs of the deceased. Sometimes the air is exhaled so a sound like a sigh happens. My wife is a retired nurse and shared this with me.

I met a local man who asked me if I'd heard about the "miracle man". I told him I'd visited him in hospital. Mike's recovery was complete and ridiculously quick. Unless, of course, you accept that God still does miracles.

Some of the details of his injuries are better left unsaid. Suffice to say that when I saw him, I was reminded of the scripture that the face of Jesus was marred more than any man. As an aside, that's why I reject the notion that the Shroud of Turin is really the burial cloth of Jesus. The face on the shroud is much too human like.

I do not believe in coincidence. God enabled me to meet the wardsman and someone who had read the story in the local newspaper. The Navy unwittinly helped me by sending me to Canberra a number of times so I was able to stop off in Albury.​

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Oh please tell me you understand the reference to Mark 2:4 that Lamar is pointing to.

…3Then a paralytic was brought to Him, carried by four men. 4Since they were unable to get to Jesus through the crowd, they uncovered the roof above Him, made an opening, and lowered the paralytic on his mat. 5When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”…(Mark 2:3-5)

Why don't you tell me what you think these verses mean.

 

[Dave123]

This was not always the case. For instance, when Jesus visited His hometown, the word says He "did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief." COULD He have done miracles there DESPITE their unbelief? I imagine He could, but we would have learned nothing that. This would be like a disobedient child disobeying its parents and getting away with stealing a reward he did not earn. What would the child learn from this?

Hey Jim

You're missing the point. Jesus did not heal them, or perform miracles there. That's the point. He didn't fail, He refused. That's not putting the onus on the believer to receive what Jesus tried to give him, it's Jesus not giving.

Matthew 12:38-40 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

He refused because the demand came from skepticism, and not of faith.

At the Pool of Bethesda (John 5), Jesus healed only one man among a multitude of sick people. There was a reason for this. He didn't try to heal everyone but failed, He healed everyone He intended to heal, one man. There was no, sorry, you don't have enough faith. The "all where healed" still stands.

Sometimes, EVERYONE in a certain crowd was healed. I don't think there is sufficient evidence to say that always happened. Therefore, we cannot be dogmatic about it. Paul mentions occasions when he as well as other members of his Apostolic team (such as Timothy and Epaproditis) got sick. From this, we see that the gift of healing does not grant a person the power to heal anyone any time they wished. This is a misconception of what the gift of healing was. It is even dangerous since it might tempt a person to believe as Simon Magus who people called "The Great Power of God"

When Jesus gave, all were healed. Same with the Apostles. that's what it says.

The only time I can remember it not working was when the disciples were asked to cast out a demon from a boy possessed. Jesus did it because the disciples could not. It was *their* lack of faith, not the boys (Matthew 17:14-21). And keep in mind this was before they were indwelt and born again, which happened at Pentecost. The miracles were to confirm the message and the messenger, that's why Timothy and Epaphroditus were not healed through human agency, they had faith already.

Your other statement that even those who were healed miraculously eventually died is irrelevant. God healing someone's body is not at all like their body being resurrected to eternal life. When you speak of "faith running dry" it sounds as faith were a battery that can lose its charge. The Bible says "faith comes by hearing the word of God." Unless we have a word from God or a clear truth recorded in scripture we have no basis to believe anything. I also object to calling people who are used by God to bring about healing a Faith Healer as if they had permanent custody of some power other than the Holy Spirit.

We don't need a guru. Any believer can ask God directly for healing as we have direct access to Him in the NT. He lives in us. We are complete in Him and lacking nothing. When does enough faith run out? At 60? At 70? When is enough faith no longer enough faith, since all eventually die? That's the point.

Dave

 

[Dave123]

There are people who truly have the gift of healing. Derek Prince was one. He also routinely ministered deliverance from bondage to evil spirits. The two often go hand in hand. I cast out evil spirits myself from time to time. It is no big deal. Everyone who is born again has that power and authority.

There are also way too many charlatans and the self deceived.

There can be blockages to healing. Some believers have attitude problems and God allows them to suffer sickness. Paul talks about them to the Corinthians. He rebuked them for their mishandling of Communion. Some even died because of their wrong attitudes.

Lord Jesus cast out demons and healed the sick - all who came to Him. There are many people who would rather be ill than submit to the Lordship of Christ. That's terrible because they miss out on the best possible life, the abundant life that Jesus came to give us. My youngest brother was one such man. He refused prayer and died well before his time.

Satan hates the miraculous. He hates it even more when people are delivered from evil spirits. And deliverance is at the heart of the Kingdom of God. (Matthew 12:28). If we want to see the Kingdom of God on this earth then we'd better get back to casting out demons. (Evil spirits and demons are the same thing).​

This is where the heroes of healing go when they are sick.

https://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html

I'll leave you with this, as I cannot say it any better. Here's a quote from Macarthur.

2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased." Macarthur

You don't need a guru for this, just ask Him yourself.

Dave

 

[Lamar]

I have another explanation for why the "roofs of Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replaced" - the universal Law of Entropy. Things, always proceed towards disorder. I think this is far more reasonable than anything you have implied in this post. You know, it might be the reason why, sooner or later, the roofs of almost every Church will need to be repaired.

The Law of Entropy?

Are you not aware that the statement about the "roofs of Pentecostal Churches are always needing to be replace" is in jest?

Are you seriously this slow?

The crowds pulled the roof off of the house that Jesus was healing.

Is this happening in the Pentecostal Churches?

Can you not connect the dots?

 

[Anchorite]

Hey Jim

You're missing the point. Jesus did not heal them, or perform miracles there. That's the point. He didn't fail, He refused. That's not putting the onus on the believer to receive what Jesus tried to give him, it's Jesus not giving.

No, you are the one who is missing the point. Jesus did not refuse to perform miracles there. It was their unbelief that prevented miracles from happening.

The onus is always on the suffering person who is required to exercise faith, believing, trust in Jesus.



Matthew 13:58

And He did not many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.




Matthew 9:28,29


28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.

29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

 

[Dave123]

No, you are the one who is missing the point. Jesus did not refuse to perform miracles there. It was their unbelief that prevented miracles from happening.

Jesus refused because of their unbelief.

 

[Anchorite]

Jesus refused because of their unbelief.

I would say that Jesus was unable to perform miracles because of their unbelief. He was certainly willing, but their lack of faith prevented it. So Jesus did not refuse a request, nor was He angry, He was merely reacting to their unbelief.

If they believed, they would have requested healing, like so many others did, and Jesus would have done miracles for them, for that is one big reason why He came to earth from heaven.

Matthew 8

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

 

[CS1]

I would say that Jesus was unable to perform miracles because of their unbelief. He was certainly willing, but their lack of faith prevented it. So Jesus did not refuse a request, nor was He angry, He was merely reacting to their unbelief.

If they believed, they would have requested healing, like so many others did, and Jesus would have done miracles for them, for that is one big reason why He came to earth from heaven.

Matthew 8

16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

amen. That is what the word of God says Matthew 13:58 "Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

 

[Anchorite]

amen. That is what the word of God says Matthew 13:58 "Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief."

Yes. It does not say “He refused to do many mighty works there…” as though it was His whim or due to Jesus being angry, which the word “refused” could imply. Jesus apparently did do some mighty works there, but not many, as He did in other places.

 

[CS1]

Yes. It does not say “He refused to do many mighty works there…” as though it was His whim or due to Jesus being angry, which the word “refused” could imply. Jesus apparently did do some mighty works there, but not many, as He did in other places.

The Greek it seems like it saying I wanted to do good workers for you, but you tied up my hands and would not let me. Ties up with unbelief.

 

[Gideon300]

This is where the heroes of healing go when they are sick.

https://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/healthyself.html

I'll leave you with this, as I cannot say it any better. Here's a quote from Macarthur.

2. THE HYPOCRISY OF MODERN HEALERS

The question I hear all the time is: "Well, how do you explain what goes on?" All right, let me ask you a question. Since none of the healers can heal with a word or a touch, instantaneously, totally, everybody, organic diseases, and raise the dead; since none of them have received the gift of healing from Jesus or the Apostles; since the Bible is complete, the revelation has ceased, and more signs are no longer necessary; since the Word needs no confirmation -- it is sufficient that the man of God might be perfect; since their healings are based on faulty theology of the atonement and salvation; since they disallow God His own purposes in having some people remain sick; since their personal lives are not known to manifest the fruit of the Spirit; since so many tricks, gimmicks, and special effects are often used; since the evidence is weak, unsupported, and so-called testimonies exaggerated; since they do not go to where the sick are, as Jesus did; since they cannot heal all who come to them; and since their healings can have other possible explanations rather than that God has acted supernaturally; let me ask you this question: "How do you explain it?" You can't explain it biblically -- it is fraud, they are deceived. Maybe they don't know they are deceived; maybe they are honestly deceived, but they are deceived.

3. THE HEALING OF GOD

You say, "Are you saying God doesn't heal?" No. God answers prayer. Second, God heals in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith. God heals miraculously in answer to prayer where there is faith to manifest His own glory. Don't say I don't believe God heals. I've seen Him heal. I've seen Him heal miraculously. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory. I've seen Him heal miraculously to manifest His glory in response to faithful prayer. God heals. But, God does not heal everybody and God no longer heals through the apostolic gift of healing. That gift has ceased." Macarthur

You don't need a guru for this, just ask Him yourself.

Dave

Well I have experienced healing myself and seen many miracles. I've prayed for people to be healed myself. Lord Jesus gave the power to heal to all His disciples, not just to the 12. That is part of the problem, the idea that there is a special class of believers that are the only ones who may minister.

The ministry gifts in Ephesians 4:11 are to equip the saints for ministry. Stephen was a deacon, yet he performed signs and wonders. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There will need to be apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists and pastors as long as there are believers who need to be equipped.

The church is a mess precisely because a group of self proclaimed "elites" shut out those who God has called to ministry. Those self proclaimed leaders ensure that only those that they approve of become the next generation of ministers. So those people go to the approved theological institution to get an approved denomination indoctrination and then get thrown into a den of the critical and ungrateful. And often, the pastor is paid peanuts to be on call 24/7.

Thousands of pastors are walking away. Many denominations can't get a professional pastor. In itself, that is pathetic. To be a pastor is a calling of God, not an appointment by a board who demands doctrinal conformity to denominational biases.

Peter warned that judgement begins with the house of God and what can be shaken will be. It's underway right now.​