Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

[Inquisitor]

But those that repent, obey, overcome and endure will be given the gift of Eternal life in the Family of God.

Sounds like 'if you do this and that, then you are saved'.

The polar opposite is true.

Romans 10:13
For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

After being saved you then as a new creation put into practice what you were instructed to do.

 

[memberofthebride]

Sounds like 'if you do this and that, then you are saved'.

The polar opposite is true.

Romans 10:13
For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

After being saved you then as a new creation put into practice what you were instructed to do.

you are making doctrine with one or two scriptures --- for every one there are 5 or 10 more that add to it
Those that Do my Father's will
Those that over come
Those that endure until the end.
Those that bring forth fruit
on and on

 

[Inquisitor]

you are making doctrine with one or two scriptures --- for every one there are 5 or 10 more that add to it
Those that Do my Father's will
Those that over come
Those that endure until the end.
Those that bring forth fruit
on and on

Put Jesus first and last at all times.

Gentiles were never under the law and that includes the ten commandments.

The law for the Jews was summed up in loving others as Christ loved them.

Christ overcomes and we overcome in Christ as Gentiles.

No one can endure without the Holy Spirit.

It was never about what you strive to do but by the grace of our Lord.

 

[memberofthebride]

Put Jesus first and last at all times.

Gentiles were never under the law and that includes the ten commandments.

The law for the Jews was summed up in loving others as Christ loved them.

Christ overcomes and we overcome in Christ as Gentiles.

No one can endure without the Holy Spirit.

It was never about what you strive to do but by the grace of our Lord.

Gentiles were never under the law and that includes the ten commandments.
Are you saying never under penalty of death or never knew the Law or never under subjection to the law ?

The law for the Jews was summed up in loving others as Christ loved them.
and where is it shown the ways Christ loved them, are there rules? actually define love, is it an emotion?

Christ overcomes and we overcome in Christ as Gentiles.
Not at all sure what "we overcome in Christ as Gentile" mean, and overcomes what exactlly?

No one can endure without the Holy Spirit.
that is clear, totally agree, without the Father's Spirit dwelling in us we can do nothing

It was never about what you strive to do but by the grace of our Lord.
please define Grace, Strongs says it also means kindness, and are you saying there is nothing we need to do, just stand there and it is all done for us?

For many years I have not liked word put together that have no concrete meaning, abstract words give me no mental picture.

When Christ says, 'paraphrased', 'If i can not rule over you, if you will not obey, then I will put you to death' I under stand all those words.
I understand "rule" , "obey", and "put to death",
When some say, "the law is the shadow of the reality" ---that is meaningless to me and I would guess to the person saying it.

What I am pointing out, when Christ comes back to rule earth as its KING He will institute a pure language, the one we use causes confusion.
I have lots of trouble with the way folks form the thought or point they are making as you can see above

 

[biblestudent78]

I was baptized in water in 1970, in 2015, the Lord saved me. I'll never be the same.

John
King James Bible
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

So if you plot from 1970 till today, what does that plot look like? How does it vary from the cultural transition of youth to old for unbelievers?

 

[biblestudent78]

Those of Israel and the kingdom gospel were required to endure to the end. Those saved by the grace gospel have salvation that is immediate and eternal. Those who are saved by the grace gospel are expected to grow into Christ-likeness by transitioning from the flesh to walking by the Spirit. Sadly, most Christians do not know this much less how to do it. Thus most Christians remain immature and indistinguishable from the unsaved.

I thought the Holy Spirit would "guide them into all truth?"

 

[timf]

The Holy Spirit can be quenched and grieved.

 

[rogerg]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

Yes, definitely instantaneous and permanent because it is by Christ's perfect completed offering and sacrifice and not by the one to whom it is given. Christ alone is the Savior, man is not

 

[dkontner]

So if you plot from 1970 till today, what does that plot look like? How does it vary from the cultural transition of youth to old for unbelievers?

I'm not sure what to plot, but I'm nowhere near the same person I was. I was blind. To be truthful, I was overwhelmed had A LOT of questions. When I asked Him, I ended up at Hosea 6 (my signature). What has Jesus been doing for 2000 years (2 days)? He has been saving His by any means necessary. I found myself flat on my back without anyone or anything. I found myself in a King James Bible and it was Him who granted me repentance. He did all that, not me. His grace and mercy saved me, and I'm not talking about the flesh. He spoke of perfecting Himself for 2 days in Luke 13.

Luke 13
King James Bible
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

God bless

 

[biblestudent78]

I'm not sure what to plot, but I'm nowhere near the same person I was. I was blind. To be truthful, I was overwhelmed had A LOT of questions. When I asked Him, I ended up at Hosea 6 (my signature). What has Jesus been doing for 2000 years (2 days)? He has been saving His by any means necessary. I found myself flat on my back without anyone or anything. I found myself in a King James Bible and it was Him who granted me repentance. He did all that, not me. His grace and mercy saved me, and I'm not talking about the flesh. He spoke of perfecting Himself for 2 days in Luke 13.

Luke 13
King James Bible
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

God bless

Would this conversion and change of life be noticed by your family? friends, fellow workers and children?

 

[dkontner]

Would this conversion and change of life be noticed by your family? friends, fellow workers and children?

There weren't any to notice.

 

[biblestudent78]

Revelation 7:3
King James Version (KJV)


3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.



The seal of God is the Holy Spirit and only God’s elects can receive the Holy Spirit

Revelation 9:4
King James Version (KJV)


4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


Ephesians 1:13-14
King James Version (KJV)


13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Given that you claim the power to become the Sons of God and be sealed servants of God, has your family noticed, your coworkers, your budget, your entertainment expenses and your politics changed?

 

[biblestudent78]

Sounds like 'if you do this and that, then you are saved'.

The polar opposite is true.

Romans 10:13
For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

After being saved you then as a new creation put into practice what you were instructed to do.

And if you don't "put into practice what you are instructed to do" please answer after reading Matthew 25. I look forward to your insight.

 

[sawdust]

And if you don't "put into practice what you are instructed to do" please answer after reading Matthew 25. I look forward to your insight.

You come under discipline. Matthew 25 deals with the end of the age, not our ongoing sanctification.

Heb.12:6-8
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

 

[Inquisitor]

And if you don't "put into practice what you are instructed to do" please answer after reading Matthew 25. I look forward to your insight.

Have you ever heard the word "context"?

Context refers to the circumstances, background, or setting surrounding an event, statement,
or idea that helps explain its full meaning. It acts as the framework—including time, place, and
culture—needed to interpret information accurately and understand its significance, often
determining why something happened or what it truly means.

Matthew 25 does not contradict salvation by grace; rather, it describes works as the natural, inevitable
evidence of true faith and a transformed life. While grace is the root of salvation, the actions (loving service to others)
described in the chapter are the fruit, demonstrating genuine, living faith rather than merit-based salvation.

You need to be a new creation in Christ before you can even take the first steps in Christ.

We are saved by grace through faith and that is not from us, it is a free gift given to us.

 

[Inquisitor]

Would this conversion and change of life be noticed by your family? friends, fellow workers and children?

Of course they notice and they sometimes ridicule you.

They will stab you in the back but rarely discuss it with you.

 

[Inquisitor]

I thought the Holy Spirit would "guide them into all truth?"

There is only one truth and that is Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit constantly directs you to Jesus.

We don't save ourselves by ticking a set of boxes.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe in Jesus.

Look for the word "believe" in the verses below.

John 1:7
He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 1:50
Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”

John 2:11
This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

John 2:22
So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

John 2:23
Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name, observing His signs which He was doing.

John 3:12
If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

John 3:15
So that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 4:39
From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done.”

John 4:41
Many more believed because of His word.

John 4:42
And they were saying to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Saviour of the world.”

John 4:48
So Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe.”

John 4:50
Jesus said to him, “Go; your son lives.” The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started off.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said to him, “Your son lives” ; and he himself believed and his whole household.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 5:44
How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

John 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.

John 5:47
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

John 6:30
So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You?

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.

John 6:36
But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

 

[anjelica]

I think the best scripture for this argument goes something like "he who endures until the end" So I do think salvation can be accepted and is instantaneous but "once saved always saved" is a false doctrine

 

[Inquisitor]

you are making doctrine with one or two scriptures --- for every one there are 5 or 10 more that add to it
Those that Do my Father's will
Those that over come
Those that endure until the end.
Those that bring forth fruit
on and on

Your focus on 1 John 3:23 highlights a pivotal distinction in Christian theology between obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic Law and the "new" requirements of the New Covenant.

1 John 3:23 defines the commandment of God in two parts:

1. "That we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ"
2. "And love one another, just as He commanded us"

Here is a breakdown of your point regarding this potential derailment in historical Christianity.

The Two Commandments of 1 John 3

• Belief in Jesus (Not in the Mosaic Law): As you noted, the imperative to place faith specifically in the name of Jesus Christ for salvation is not found within the 613 laws of Moses. It is the core of the Gospel.
• Loving Others (As Christ Loved): While the Mosaic Law commands loving one’s neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), the commandment in 1 John 3:23-24—and John 13:34—adds a new standard: "as I have loved you". This requires sacrificial love (laying down one's life/interests), which differs from the Mosaic standard of loving a neighbor as oneself.
• The Shift from Moral Law to Love: Many interpretations suggest that legalistic obedience to moral codes (the Old Testament law) has often replaced the higher, active demand of love. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Argument for a Historical "Derailment"
You point out a "derailment," which some theologians and believers describe as a return to legalism (Galatians 3-5). [1]

• Legalism vs. Life in the Spirit: A common derailment is focusing on keeping moral laws to gain righteousness, rather than trusting in Christ's completed work (the first part of the commandment) and allowing love to flow from that faith (the second part).
• The Law as an External Code: Historical Christianity has often operated under a "do" framework (obeying rules to avoid punishment) rather than the "done" framework of the New Covenant, where love is a fruit of the Spirit rather than merely a commanded action.
• The Commandment is Love: The passage in 1 John 3 implies that all of God’s requirements are ultimately summed up in these two aspects: faith in Christ and sacrificial love. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Summary
1 John 3:23-24 presents a simplified, yet higher standard than the Mosaic Law, focusing on personal relationship with Jesus and sacrificial love. You are correct that this is often overlooked in favor of more rigid legalistic interpretations. [1]
1 John 3:23-24 (NIV):

"And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them."

 

[Mem]

Romans 8
"...but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption to sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him.
If your hope is in the law, then you have no hope in Christ. If "indeed we suffer with Him," we will also be glorified with Him. There are two occurrences of 'sumpascho,' "suffer with," in the NT. The second occurrence is in 1Cor 12:26 and it speaks to all members suffering when one member suffers and all rejoicing when one member is honored.

Rev 5:12
In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

If you're honoring the law, then you're dishonoring the sufferings of Christ to deliver those under the law.
Gal 6:14-16
14But as for me, may I never boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything. What counts is a new creation.

16Peace and mercy to all who walk by this rule, even to the Israel of God.

You are not a new creature if you're waiting for the judgment of your salvation at the resurrection.
2Cor 5:16-17
16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!