Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

[mailmandan]

“not by earning favor through external, merit-based works.”

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone teach that you need to earn favor by a merit based works system .

Churches that traditionally teach that salvation involves both faith and meritorious works (just two name 2) include the Roman Catholic Church and The Church of a Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). These churches teach that while salvation starts with God's grace, individuals must cooperate through acts of love, obedience, and/or sacramental participation to gain or maintain justification.

 

[Inquisitor]

Read Romans 1:1 to 10:12.

I know those chapters very well.

Why do you ask?

 

[Roger316]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

The Bible presents salvation as three parts: justification, sanctification, and glorification. We are justified the moment we hear and believe the gospel. We are sanctified when God decides to save us, and we will be glorified in the next age.

Justification:
To be justified in this context is to be declared "right with God." Those who hear the gospel message, believe that Jesus is both Lord and Christ, are right with God.

Sanctification:
Contrary to what some people believe, sanctification isn't strictly about becoming a better person. This may happen certainly, but to be sanctified is to be set aside for a holy purpose. When God chooses a person to be saved, he is assigning that person to a life dedicated to his service, and the subjective aspect of sanctification is enlightenment and a heart willing to trust him. Thus, this aspect of salvation takes place over a lifetime.

Glorification:
All human beings suffer both the penalty and the inevitability of sin. Jesus solved the former at the cross and he will solve the latter in the coming age. To be "glorified" is to be free of sin and morally perfect, always doing the right thing and always acting in goodness toward others, and loving the truth. Glorification takes place in the coming age.

 

[Inquisitor]

My question; do you "believe" Jesus Christ?
Not just believe Jesus is the Christ! Do you believe what He is telling you -- what you are to DO and NOT to DO?

You are so confused by the oldest heresy in Christianity,

We are saved by our savior Jesus Christ and that salvation is a free gift.

We are not saved because we endured or we loved others or we obeyed a rule, or a sacrament or attended a church.

You seriously need to address your corrupt combination of grace and works.

Saved by Jesus and our response in gratitude for His atonement is following Him, obedience.

We can never be saved by anything we can do because salvation is a free gift at all times.

 

[Inquisitor]

Churches that traditionally teach that salvation involves both faith and meritorious works (just two name 2) include the Roman Catholic Church and The Church of a Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). These churches teach that while salvation starts with God's grace, individuals must cooperate through acts of love, obedience, and/or sacramental participation to gain or maintain justification.

They all have sacraments.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That little Protestant gem is older than the early 1800's, it goes back to circa the 16th century, so more like 4-500 years. Now that Jesus had to die as a sacrifice to satisfy God's honor over the offense of sin is even older, all the way back to the 12th or 13 century but unknow before that. There are several things in scripture that are "obvious" to believers today that were "discovered" well after the time of the Apostles as indicated in the writings of the early church fathers who did not refer to these "obvious" points, but rather puzzled over them.

“Thus salvation depends on how you live, not at all about what you claim to believe.”

seems like its been longer

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It never says “ you’ll be resurrected and asked what you believe then you’ll either be saved or damned based on your answer “

rather it repeatedly explains the same thing Jesus said

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

One group who does good receives eternal life the other group who rejects that and does evil receives wrath and anger.

The actions of a believer matter so much because we’re going to be judged for our words and actions . And indeed whether we receive eternal life doing good or receive wrath and anger doing evil is all about salvation

this consistent principle covers Paul’s writings consistsntly

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;

whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

again the matter is about destruction or eternal life . Eternal life is directly tied to salvation

seeing to please the flesh is a reference from the prior chapter which explains what those flesh works are

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Note Paul saying” I’ve told you this now and before this many times over . So it’s a really important matter to Paul that they accept and hear that part about how they now live after they have believed

Believers should know this ort along with everything else it’s really important because it’s what guides our behavior and gives us the means for repentance and should affect our conscience

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You are so confused by the oldest heresy in Christianity,

We are saved by our savior Jesus Christ and that salvation is a free gift.

We are not saved because we endured or we loved others or we obeyed a rule, or a sacrament or attended a church.

You seriously need to address your corrupt combination of grace and works.

Saved by Jesus and our response in gratitude for His atonement is following Him, obedience.

We can never be saved by anything we can do because salvation is a free gift at all times.

Churches that traditionally teach that salvation involves both faith and meritorious works (just two name 2) include the Roman Catholic Church and The Church of a Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). These churches teach that while salvation starts with God's grace, individuals must cooperate through acts of love, obedience, and/or sacramental participation to gain or maintain justification.

“These churches teach that while salvation starts with God's grace, individuals must cooperate through acts of love, obedience, and/or sacramental participation to gain or maintain justification.”

and Your issue is ?

they need to cooperate and obey God after he’s given them grace like he did with Noah ?

Let’s take a simple example paul wrote this to the church at corninth regarding ( communion ) or sacred ent or whatever you want to call it .

“For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”

( now listen to what Paul the apostle whom you seem to really highly regard )

For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

So then, Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭11:23-29‬ ‭NIV‬‬


now to be very clear brother mailman …..I’m not trying to tell you that you must do this to gain merit or justification at all


My question to you is can you acknowledge that participating in communion is definately a serious and important point in Christian doctrine ?
and also if it’s about this like Paul’s saying
“For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.”

if we don’t say we’ll it’s just a ritual and doesn’t mean what he’s saying doesn’t have that impact can’t make us guilty of sinning agains his body and blood like Paul’s saying “ if we don’t explain it all away and just hear what he’s saying there …… what value is there in teaching anyone “ you don’t need to do that it won’t affect you .” It doesn’t actually mean or affect believers “

 

[mailmandan]

You are so confused by the oldest heresy in Christianity,

We are saved by our savior Jesus Christ and that salvation is a free gift.

We are not saved because we endured or we loved others or we obeyed a rule, or a sacrament or attended a church.

You seriously need to address your corrupt combination of grace and works.

Saved by Jesus and our response in gratitude for His atonement is following Him, obedience.

We can never be saved by anything we can do because salvation is a free gift at all times.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

this grace correct ?

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( that’s part of Gods grace , the teachings of repentance and obedience ) looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gods grace doesn’t come without accepting his word in the gospel the things he taught us regarding repentance and doing the right things . Those are the inner workings of grace .

 

[dkontner]

this grace correct ?

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( that’s part of Gods grace , the teachings of repentance and obedience ) looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gods grace doesn’t come without accepting his word in the gospel the things he taught us regarding repentance and doing the right things . Those are the inner workings of grace .

I hope I do enough

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I hope I do enough

It’s really Not about how much you do . Or if you’ve done enough because none of us have done enough to deserve what he’s done for us . It’s about our response to hearing his word in the gospel.

It’s about hearing the things Jesus taught for instance one of the early things I adored and needed in his actual doctrine for gods children found in the gospel.

Notice it’s not about how many things you do but the response to his word

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s this type of thing

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after you see jesus teaching these things enough in his sermons then read Paul from that same perspective and Paul does something wonderful for us through his gift of revelation

Jesus said this in the gospel

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭

and so now paul to the church afterwards Teaching of the coming judgement

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;

for thou that judgest doest the same things. ( sinners judging sinners ) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See how important this part is ?

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and how the things Jesus taught are actually for us to embrace because we aren’t perfect and we can’t do all we need to do ourselves we already know we fell short that’s why we needed Jesus to come teach us the truth of God and his judgements and die for our sins beforhand so we could have a new beginning with God through him rather than like the ot just being good enough to have a relationship with him ourselves

thats what led man to this point

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But now we have a new doctrine to follow a better one . meant for those who believe in Jesus who acknowledge they aren’t perfect and aren’t good enough themselves they have to trust in thier lord and savior and his word out things like “ how we can be saved “ how we can be forgiven , how we can please God …. Ect


It’s just about being a disciple brother doesn’t matter how much you know or how much you do . It’s about being someone who lets him teach you the ways of God and as you learn them prayerfully and carefully begin applying those things because you believe in him being trustworthy and knowing the things he taught were true

faith in Jesus isn’t just to say he exists or that he died and rose the end . It comes to us as we exist in his presence and what we have is his word to do that . We can sit and hear the sermons he preached himself when he came to save

youll find his doctrine isn’t like Moses doctrine it’s new and far better

 

[HeIsHere]

I hope I do enough

9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:9-11

 

[dkontner]

It’s really Not about how much you do . Or if you’ve done enough because none of us have done enough to deserve what he’s done for us . It’s about our response to hearing his word in the gospel.

It’s about hearing the things Jesus taught for instance one of the early things I adored and needed in his actual doctrine for gods children found in the gospel.

Notice it’s not about how many things you do but the response to his word

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s this type of thing

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after you see jesus teaching these things enough in his sermons then read Paul from that same perspective and Paul does something wonderful for us through his gift of revelation

Jesus said this in the gospel

“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:1-3‬ ‭

and so now paul to the church afterwards Teaching of the coming judgement

“Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;

for thou that judgest doest the same things. ( sinners judging sinners ) But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:1-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See how important this part is ?

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.

For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and how the things Jesus taught are actually for us to embrace because we aren’t perfect and we can’t do all we need to do ourselves we already know we fell short that’s why we needed Jesus to come teach us the truth of God and his judgements and die for our sins beforhand so we could have a new beginning with God through him rather than like the ot just being good enough to have a relationship with him ourselves

thats what led man to this point

“The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there were any that did understand, And seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: There is none that doeth good, no, not one.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


But now we have a new doctrine to follow a better one . meant for those who believe in Jesus who acknowledge they aren’t perfect and aren’t good enough themselves they have to trust in thier lord and savior and his word out things like “ how we can be saved “ how we can be forgiven , how we can please God …. Ect


It’s just about being a disciple brother doesn’t matter how much you know or how much you do . It’s about being someone who lets him teach you the ways of God and as you learn them prayerfully and carefully begin applying those things because you believe in him being trustworthy and knowing the things he taught were true

faith in Jesus isn’t just to say he exists or that he died and rose the end . It comes to us as we exist in his presence and what we have is his word to do that . We can sit and hear the sermons he preached himself when he came to save

youll find his doctrine isn’t like Moses doctrine it’s new and far better

I know, the Lord saved me in 2015 at the age of 55. It has ZERO to do with anything this filthy sinner ever did. Has He changed me in 11 years? Night and day and He isn't done.

 

[PaulThomson]

God is timeless.

I say: No, He isn’t.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I know, the Lord saved me in 2015 at the age of 55. It has ZERO to do with anything this filthy sinner ever did. Has He changed me in 11 years? Night and day and He isn't done.

Ah I see. That’s a good deal

 

[Pilgrimshope]

9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,
10 for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.
11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:9-11

“Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.”
“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-30‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I say: No, He isn’t.
Prove me wrong.

Define time first

 

[HeIsHere]

“Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.”
“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-30‬ ‭

Yes, but remember this is before He went to the cross.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yes, but remember this is before He went to the cross.

After the cross ….

“Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭NIV‬‬

After the cross

“Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:21-22‬ ‭NIV‬‬

After the cross the apostle Paul

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

“For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Finally paul explaining the proper mindset for a mature Christian

“Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭3:12-15‬ ‭

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:

If we just say “ I’m saved “ I don’t need to do anything god said a person needs to do I’m already saved “ …….we could be missing some information that would set us free from things we didn’t know were bonds

Remember he said to make disciples of all nations teaching then to obey what I taught you ? This is for all of us

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[wattie]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

Question is, if it isn't instant and permanent, then what kind of salvation is it?

If it is eternal salvation, it has to be instant and permanent, because we are flawed beings, who get eternally saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

If it were a long process of development, that would not be a free gift of eternal life.

If salvation wasn't permanent, and it's not meant to be thru works to get it.. how do you get it back? Works?

Comes down to the flawed nature of human beings and the grace of God.