Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

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Jesus said that only those who endure all forms of persecution, "but remain faithful to the end" will be saved. What does His statement imply about "instantaneous and irreversible?" Paul said it does not matter how much faith you have. If you don't have love, your faith is just noise. How does that play into your theology? Can you have "saving faith" without love?
In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity."

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity which culminates in salvation by works. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith in Christ is insufficient to save us without the merits of our best efforts to love.

All who are truly born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
 
I like this question....
Because so many serious Biblical studies get it so wrong....

For this answer....we need those who love Science Fiction.
Especially those who like time travel movies.

We, as humans in our mortal coil are in the third dimension....we know about the 4th dimension (time) and watch it move.
We have zero ability to have any affect on time whatsoever. It continues to move regardless of anything we do.

However God is not limited in this way.
God is timeless.
God is without beginning or end just because.....

God also can traverse dimensions....and has.

The scriptures talk about us one day being "face to face" with God and able to know God.....
The best we can currently do is apprehend God.....comprehension is way beyond our abilities as 3 dimensional beings.
It's just like licking your elbow....you think you can but....nope....not happening either.

So....the "face to face" and "being with the Lord in Heaven" are synonymous with existing in the 4th dimension with God.
Where, yes, time has meaning....but we can traverse it much like we can traverse 3-D spaces now.

So.....
IF (big, huge, "IF") you decide to humble and prostrate yourself to God, His Decrees, His desires.....

You have then become a resident in Heaven who has been there for thousands of years and will be there for thousands of years more.

Told ya.....total mind bender.
 
Sounds like 'if you do this and that, then you are saved'.

The polar opposite is true.

Romans 10:13
For, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

After being saved you then as a new creation put into practice what you were instructed to do.
Certain folks seem to turn "overcome" and "endure" into "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door. 🚩
 
Your focus on 1 John 3:23 highlights a pivotal distinction in Christian theology between obedience to the Old Testament Mosaic Law and the "new" requirements of the New Covenant.

1 John 3:23 defines the commandment of God in two parts:
  1. "That we should believe in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ"
  2. "And love one another, just as He commanded us"
Here is a breakdown of your point regarding this potential derailment in historical Christianity.

The Two Commandments of 1 John 3
  • Belief in Jesus (Not in the Mosaic Law): As you noted, the imperative to place faith specifically in the name of Jesus Christ for salvation is not found within the 613 laws of Moses. It is the core of the Gospel.
  • Loving Others (As Christ Loved): While the Mosaic Law commands loving one’s neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), the commandment in 1 John 3:23-24—and John 13:34—adds a new standard: "as I have loved you". This requires sacrificial love (laying down one's life/interests), which differs from the Mosaic standard of loving a neighbor as oneself.
  • The Shift from Moral Law to Love: Many interpretations suggest that legalistic obedience to moral codes (the Old Testament law) has often replaced the higher, active demand of love. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

The Argument for a Historical "Derailment"
You point out a "derailment," which some theologians and believers describe as a return to legalism (Galatians 3-5). [1]
  • Legalism vs. Life in the Spirit: A common derailment is focusing on keeping moral laws to gain righteousness, rather than trusting in Christ's completed work (the first part of the commandment) and allowing love to flow from that faith (the second part).
  • The Law as an External Code: Historical Christianity has often operated under a "do" framework (obeying rules to avoid punishment) rather than the "done" framework of the New Covenant, where love is a fruit of the Spirit rather than merely a commanded action.
  • The Commandment is Love: The passage in 1 John 3 implies that all of God’s requirements are ultimately summed up in these two aspects: faith in Christ and sacrificial love. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

Summary
1 John 3:23-24 presents a simplified, yet higher standard than the Mosaic Law, focusing on personal relationship with Jesus and sacrificial love. You are correct that this is often overlooked in favor of more rigid legalistic interpretations. [1]
1 John 3:23-24 (NIV):

I have been focused on "Words" of late.

Everyone uses the word "believe". "believe on Jesus" on and on.

My question; do you "believe" Jesus Christ?
Not just believe Jesus is the Christ! Do you believe what He is telling you -- what you are to DO and NOT to DO?

If a person "believes" Jesus IS the Savior, our Passover are they then willing to Do what He tells them to DO?

He has told us to follow HIM!
The "way" of most churches I do not see following Christ, neither His words or the way He lived.

I believe Jesus over Paul, Paul is not my Passover, not my Maker, Paul did not die for me

Paul is said to be difficult to understand and yet The Many put Paul in front of Christ. Why?
Paul appears to be saying the Law is over, you are saved by Grace, ignoring the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
thus; if the Law is no more -- I am freed from all those do's and don't, I am accepted just as I am, no action required.

The 4 Gospels, the Words from the mouth of our Maker, do not, have not freed us from the Law.
If you Agape ME keep My commandments.

will this change minds? nope!
If the words of GOD will not, mine certainly can not
 
In regard to 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul uses hyperbole about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love, but Paul is not using hyperbole about the importance of love. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith "plus love/acts of charity."

Love is the greatest quality between faith, hope and love (1 Corinthians 13:13) because God is love and it outlasts faith and hope. Long after the "evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1) are now seen and we are no longer looking for the "blessed hope" - (expectation of what is sure) and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13) because we are now in His presence, love will still be the principle that governs all that God and his saints are and do throughout eternity in the new heaven and new earth.

Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love/acts of charity which culminates in salvation by works. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith in Christ is insufficient to save us without the merits of our best efforts to love.

All who are truly born again have love. Why? Because we (believers) have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
Funny how two can read the same passage (1 Corinthians 13 and draw different conclusions) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

So how do you conclude that we are "saved by faith alone" while Paul says that without love you are "nothing.." "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love" So exactly how is "being nothing to God equate to salvation?" Why is faith, hope and love where love is the greatest, mean we are saved by faith alone no matter if totally fail at hope and love?

Is is possible we have conveniently redefined belief (usually in dogmas) as faith. If faith does not dramatically change you into a vastly more loving person, is what you claim as "faith" not just a very convenient form of belief? Faith take you to your cross. Belief if super satisfied in an airconditioned concrete entertainment venue.
 
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Those of Israel and the kingdom gospel were required to endure to the end. Those saved by the grace gospel have salvation that is immediate and eternal. Those who are saved by the grace gospel are expected to grow into Christ-likeness by transitioning from the flesh to walking by the Spirit. Sadly, most Christians do not know this much less how to do it. Thus most Christians remain immature and indistinguishable from the unsaved.
During Christ's ministry he was alway surrounded by crowds. They came for the Spectacle. They were deeply interested in what Jesus could do for them. That is why most followed Him. When it came time for Him to bear His cross and them to bear their own cross, they moved back to a more comfortable viewing location.

IMHO, this is 21st century Protestant/ND Christianity. If you just give us enough money, God will bless you 100x..... "If you put your faith in Christ you will be saved" but of course not you homosexuals, dirty people, poor people, people of the wrong color, wrong country of origin, wrong style of clothing, uneducated people, people who oppose our politics, unhygienic people. "Before you even think about putting your membership here, look around. Do you see people like you? Of course not. There is a reason for that..saved people look like us.

If what we claim as "saving faith" requires no sacrifice, no life change, no priority changes, no explosive love, no self discipline, and no inconvenience, it is a very convenient belief standing and looking at the funeral of an ancient faith being buried under a mountain of self-delusion, earthly pleasures and false hope.
 
Context is very important in the letter to the Romans (Jews and Gentiles).

Here is AI summarizing your question applied to Romans.

Based on a strict reading of Romans within its original context, Calvinism (often summarized by the TULIP acronym: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, Perseverance of the Saints) is a possible, though not universally accepted, interpretation of Paul’s argument, particularly in chapters 8–11. [1, 2]
However, the "possibility" of Calvinism in Romans relies on how one interprets Paul’s focus: whether it is on the individual's salvation destiny, or on God's sovereign historical plan for Israel and the Gentiles. [1, 2]
Here is an analysis based on the text and context of Romans:

1. Arguments for Calvinism in Romans
Calvinists heavily rely on Romans 8-9 to argue for unconditional election and sovereign grace. [1, 2, 3, 4]
  • Total Depravity (Romans 3 & 5): Paul states, "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God" (Rom 3:10-11). He also teaches that all sinned in Adam (Rom 5:12-19).
  • Unconditional Election (Romans 9): Paul argues that God’s purpose in election stands "not of works, but of him that calleth" (Rom 9:11). He uses the example of Jacob and Esau, noting God loved one and hated the other before they were born, concluding "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy" (Rom 9:15-16).
  • Sovereignty/Hardening (Romans 9): Paul asks "who art thou that repliest against God?" when discussing vessels of mercy and wrath (Rom 9:20-23). He directly states, "He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth" (Rom 9:18).
  • Perseverance/Golden Chain (Romans 8): Paul links divine actions that guarantee the outcome: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Rom 8:29-30). [1, 2, 3, 4]

2. Contextual Arguments Countering Calvinism
Many scholars argue that lifting these verses to support a systematic theology (Calvinism) ignores the immediate context of Romans 9-11, which focuses on national Israel, not individual heaven/hell destiny. [1, 2]
  • Context of Israel (Romans 9-11): Paul is addressing the problem of Israel’s unbelief (Rom 9:1-5). The election discussed is often interpreted as God choosing Israel to bring the Messiah, and now choosing to bring in Gentiles, allowing a temporary "hardening" of Israel (Rom 11:25-26).
  • Conditional Faith (Romans 10): While chapter 9 seems high-sovereignty, chapter 10 emphasizes human responsibility. "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom 10:13). Paul notes that Israel did not believe because they sought righteousness by works rather than faith (Rom 9:31-32, 10:3-4).
  • "All" vs. Elect (Romans 5 & 11): In Romans 5:18, Paul states justification applies to "all men" (corporate), and in 11:32, he says, "God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." This implies a universal offer, contradicting Limited Atonement.
  • Free Will in Vessels (Romans 1 & 9): Before God hardens (Rom 9), the people "did not like to retain God in their knowledge" (Rom 1:28), implying they hardened themselves first. [1, 2, 3, 4, 6]

Conclusion
Is it possible? Yes. If one reads Romans 9 as a direct treatise on individual salvation from eternity past, Calvinism is a plausible systematic deduction. [1]
However, if one reads Romans in its historical context—focusing on God’s faithfulness to his covenant promises through history (replacing national privilege with faith-based inclusion for both Jews and Gentiles), and balances Romans 9 with Romans 10—then the text can be interpreted to hold God's sovereignty and human responsibility in a way that differs from strict Calvinism.

Ignore context and you pay a dreadful price.
When many people have the opportunity to see the vast forest of faith, they chose instead to focus on the trees. "This is a pine forest because I can prove there are 21 pine trees here! No! this is an oak forest because I can show you 30 oaks, etc. ect. Too often we trot out our proof texts to proved the forest is exactly like this. Then thousands more offer their description of the forest via proof texts. All claim they alone have the only "truth" about the forest they alone can see.

It is my observation that the vast number of proof texts about God's forest are all designed to make our lives easier, more secure in our dogmas, more socially and politically supported. They are crafted to insure our "Christianity" enhances and supports our lifestyle and most importantly, make us invisible in our world.

In God's forest there is loving sacrifice, commitment, discipline and a new ever changing life. No wonder it is so hard to find God's forest in 21st century where the top priorities are wealth, health and personal satisfaction.
 
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Funny how two can read the same passage (1 Corinthians 13 and draw different conclusions) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

So how do you conclude that we are "saved by faith alone" while Paul says that without love you are "nothing.." "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love" So exactly how is "being nothing to God equate to salvation?" Why is faith, hope and love where love is the greatest, mean we are saved by faith alone no matter if totally fail at hope and love?

Is is possible we have conveniently redefined belief (usually in dogmas) as faith. If faith does not dramatically change you into a vastly more loving person, is what you claim as "faith" not just a very convenient form of belief? Faith take you to your cross. Belief if super satisfied in an airconditioned concrete entertainment venue.
Please explain the following verse.

Romans 10:13
For whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.
 
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Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.
Well there are mainly two camps of thought on this one is that yes it is instant and eternal the other being that no we can fall away.
i used to be a osas believer but I have seen so many fall away and to many have run away from faith for me to believe this any more. Yes one could say they were never saved to begin with but this seems like a cop out to me because I have seen genuine faith in many of those who left the faith a spark that was beautiful but they fell away and to be honest the main reason they did was actually because of other Christians.

I will never forget this one lady I met who has been abused and unloved all her life she sought out Christians to help her but all she got was judgement for her sins and lifestle she was so broken and damaged that when I couldn't help but hug her she began to bawl in tears I was heart broken for her and absolutely furious at those so called Christians who hurt her I remembered all the times I myself have been attacked severely from other Christians and I have togh skin but the fact remains that Christians do a lot of damage even to each other.

She was actually amazed to learn I was a Christian even this one person who called himself a blood witch I befriended and he himself was amazed to find out I was a Cgristian because he had a similar story he used to be a Christian a very dovoted one at that but many Christians were so judgemental so quick to accuse and attack even to each other he was shattered by them

Sorry for going on a rant there but this subject kind of brings back things to memoryand honestly I wish osas was true but the evidence is to obvious that isn't. my heart still aches from all those who became lost and it only drives me more to reach those who are lost and hurting inside because many used to be saved but fellow Christians broke them not that it is Christians alone but yeah the damage I have witnessed infuriates me especially since it came from those who were called to be love and shine the heart of Christ.
 
Funny how two can read the same passage (1 Corinthians 13 and draw different conclusions) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

So how do you conclude that we are "saved by faith alone" while Paul says that without love you are "nothing.." "And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love" So exactly how is "being nothing to God equate to salvation?" Why is faith, hope and love where love is the greatest, mean we are saved by faith alone no matter if totally fail at hope and love?

Is is possible we have conveniently redefined belief (usually in dogmas) as faith. If faith does not dramatically change you into a vastly more loving person, is what you claim as "faith" not just a very convenient form of belief? Faith take you to your cross. Belief if super satisfied in an airconditioned concrete entertainment venue.
Again, Paul is using hyperbole to express the importance of love and is not suggesting that there are Christians who have faith that can move mountains but totally fail at hope and love. If we have faith, then it would be impossible to not have hope. Hebrews 11:6 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If we totally fail at love, then that would demonstrate that we have not been born of God. (1 John 4:7-8) You seem to be making this out to be much more complicated than it really is and you seem to be flirting with salvation by works. Now saved by faith alone does not mean that we have faith but no hope and no love. Saved by faith alone means that we are saved by trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not by works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Both believing in Christ/faith in Christ result in salvation. (Acts 16:31; Romans 3:22-26)
 
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Paul wrote this to the Corinthians, with a focus on spiritual gifts, to remind them that love is the essential, everlasting motivation behind all Christan actions.

Faith will become sight in heaven and hope will be realized. Love is the very nature of God which makes it the most important virtue. Without love, spiritual gifts and acts of service are meaningless.
 
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Please define "Saving Faith."

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone….

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only…..

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:17, 24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


True faith isn’t the reason we don’t need to act , it’s the strength and reason to act .

noah had faith and so he acted upon the Lords word to him obeyed and was saved and his house making him an hier to the righteousness of faith. His faith wasn’t without the obedience to Gods word , but by faith he obeyed the lord and was saved

thats what James is getting across he uses the example of Abraham when he was tested by God , he obeyed the hardest thing he could have been commanded he trusted and obeyed the lord .

We misunderstsnd the terms it seems thses days like “ faith “ and “ grace “ and use then to erase the things God said will save and also those things that will condemn believers
 
Paul wrote this to the Corinthians, with a focus on spiritual gifts, to remind them that love is the essential, everlasting motivation behind all Christan actions.

Faith will become sight in heaven and hope will be realized. Love is the very nature of God which makes it the most important virtue. Without love, spiritual gifts and acts of service are meaningless.
What is made meaningless if we don’t do the actions ?
 
James 2:17 - So too, faith, if it does not have works (to back it up) is by itself dead. That would not be genuine faith, but a bear profession of faith.

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
In regard to James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony.*

In regard to James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

In regard to Noah, he had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8,9) and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)
 
What is made meaningless if we don’t do the actions ?
Actions are the tangible evidence, fruit, or "breath" of a living faith and without them, faith is nothing more than a dead, empty profession. (James 2:14)

Authentic faith operates through love (Galatians 5:6) rather than legalistic rule-following. It emphasizes that Christian living is fueled by God’s love and internal transformation by the Spirit, (Romans 5:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17) and not by earning favor through external, merit-based works.
 
Actions are the tangible evidence, fruit, or "breath" of a living faith and without them, faith is nothing more than a dead, empty profession. (James 2:14)

Authentic faith operates through love (Galatians 5:6) rather than legalistic rule-following. It emphasizes that Christian living is fueled by God’s love and internal transformation by the Spirit, (Romans 5:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17) and not by earning favor through external, merit-based works.

“without them, faith is nothing more than a dead, empty profession.”

agreed

“Authentic faith operates through love”

yes agreed (through Gods form of love ) and what is love without the actions we’re taught by him ?


“It emphasizes that Christian living is fueled by God’s love and internal transformation by the Spirit, (Romans 5:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17) and not by earning favor through external, merit-based works.”

im pretty sure faith is not going to look at repenting and obeying Gods word as a “ works based merit system by which one earns favor “

Rather it’s just what he said we need to do. For instance a believer will hear this and have faith and know it’s a blessing and grace from God towards imperfect sinners

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The issue I see is labeling things like that “ works to earn favor “ when actually it’s the lord himself telling anyone who would listen to him and believe the truth of things .


if god says “ if you forgive I’ll forgive you but if you don’t forgive brother will I forgive you “

this is not works based system to earn favor it’s the unfiltered truth from the mouth of God regarding what he will do .
faith emphasizes what Jesus taught in the gospel and doesn’t hide from the things requiring of the person , it’s rather received as intended an instruction that holds a blessing from God who will keep his word






Can take that as a father teaching his children about life and reality …. Or I suppose one could take it like a dictator who wants you to earn his favor by doing some ( I’m not sure really what works your meaning )





“ not by earning favor through external, merit-based works.”

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone teach that you need to earn favor by a merit based works system .
 
I guess you are probing at the center of the problem. If you are saved, why not just go out and live your best life based on your priorities, morality, finance, entertainment choices and sin pleasure.

The old circular thinking theology goes like this. You can get saved, but then if your life is as a reprobate, antagonistic headonist, then you were "never saved in the first place..." Thus salvation depends on how you live, not at all about what you claim to believe. That little Protestant gem has been around for about 220 yrs.
That little Protestant gem is older than the early 1800's, it goes back to circa the 16th century, so more like 4-500 years. Now that Jesus had to die as a sacrifice to satisfy God's honor over the offense of sin is even older, all the way back to the 12th or 13 century but unknow before that. There are several things in scripture that are "obvious" to believers today that were "discovered" well after the time of the Apostles as indicated in the writings of the early church fathers who did not refer to these "obvious" points, but rather puzzled over them.
 
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