Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

[PaulThomson]

Define time first

Time is a measure of related changes.

The minute hand on a watch does one circuit and we call that one minute. I wait for my wife outside the hospital for five circuits of the minute hand. I have been waiting for five minute. She came out after I had been waiting for five minutes.

My wife is speaking for one minute and I listen silently for 56 seconds after she has started speaking, and 4 seconds before she finished speaking.

Within the Godhead, the Father says, “Who will go for us?” and after He says that, the Son says, “Here I am, send Me.”Then, some time after that they send Gabriel to speak to Mary, and after that the Son enters Mary’s womb as a zygote, which after that grows into a child.

 

[PaulThomson]

Question is, if it isn't instant and permanent, then what kind of salvation is it?

It seems people equivocate on definitions of “salvation". No answer to questions about a thing can really be established, if the thing is not itself clearly defined. What would you suggest as a universal meaning for “salvation" that applies to all cases in scripture where the word “salvation" is used. Like wise what would be a universal definition of "saved” that would apply to all instances in the Bible?

 

[mailmandan]

this grace correct ?

Those who have been justified by faith have access by faith into grace is the correct grace. (Romans 5:1-2) Access by works into grace is the wrong grace.

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace is the correct grace. (Romans 11:6) By grace and works is the wrong grace.

Saved by grace through faith, not works is the correct grace. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Saved by grace through faith and works is the wrong grace.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( that’s part of Gods grace , the teachings of repentance and obedience ) looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gods grace doesn’t come without accepting his word in the gospel the things he taught us regarding repentance and doing the right things Those are the inner workings of grace

God's grace brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Believers are to be zealous for good works, which is what we are saved FOR, but not by. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Devoting ourselves to good works is good and profitable to men. (Titus 3:8)

These passages of scripture do not support salvation by works. The good behavior/good works mentioned are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it. Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is believing the gospel/faith in Jesus Christ. (Mark 1:15; Acts 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 20:21)

 

[jacko]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

Can a christian apososate the faith?

 

[wattie]

It seems people equivocate on definitions of “salvation". No answer to questions about a thing can really be established, if the thing is not itself clearly defined. What would you suggest as a universal meaning for “salvation" that applies to all cases in scripture where the word “salvation" is used. Like wise what would be a universal definition of "saved” that would apply to all instances in the Bible?

Eternal salvation is the once off permanent thing.. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Daily salvation, daily service .. is different and dependent on serving

 

[GWH]

I know those chapters very well.

Why do you ask?

I didn't ask; I answered your question.

 

[GWH]

The Bible presents salvation as three parts: justification, sanctification, and glorification. We are justified the moment we hear and believe the gospel. We are sanctified when God decides to save us, and we will be glorified in the next age.

Justification:
To be justified in this context is to be declared "right with God." Those who hear the gospel message, believe that Jesus is both Lord and Christ, are right with God.

Sanctification:
Contrary to what some people believe, sanctification isn't strictly about becoming a better person. This may happen certainly, but to be sanctified is to be set aside for a holy purpose. When God chooses a person to be saved, he is assigning that person to a life dedicated to his service, and the subjective aspect of sanctification is enlightenment and a heart willing to trust him. Thus, this aspect of salvation takes place over a lifetime.

Glorification:
All human beings suffer both the penalty and the inevitability of sin. Jesus solved the former at the cross and he will solve the latter in the coming age. To be "glorified" is to be free of sin and morally perfect, always doing the right thing and always acting in goodness toward others, and loving the truth. Glorification takes place in the coming age.

Yes, and another way of explaining salvation is by means of a creed such as the following:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6). Another way is “Saving faith is loving Jesus as Messiah and Lord.” The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4, EZK 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Justification is #4; sanctification and glorification (heaven) are in #5.

 

[JohnDB]

I say: No, He isn’t.
Prove me wrong.

Why?
(I have demand resistance/oppositional defiance)

Just because you desire to be wrong doesn't mean that I have to correct you.

Timelessness is not a state completely devoid of time....its just a term used for those with whom time does not have such a major control over their decisions and actions much like existing in a location in a room doesn't stop you from exiting a room.

 

[rewriter]

“Thus salvation depends on how you live, not at all about what you claim to believe.”

seems like its been longer

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It never says “ you’ll be resurrected and asked what you believe then you’ll either be saved or damned based on your answer “

rather it repeatedly explains the same thing Jesus said

“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-

One group who does good receives eternal life the other group who rejects that and does evil receives wrath and anger.

The actions of a believer matter so much because we’re going to be judged for our words and actions . And indeed whether we receive eternal life doing good or receive wrath and anger doing evil is all about salvation

this consistent principle covers Paul’s writings consistsntly

“Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction;

whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭6:7-10‬ ‭NIV‬‬

again the matter is about destruction or eternal life . Eternal life is directly tied to salvation

seeing to please the flesh is a reference from the prior chapter which explains what those flesh works are

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:

of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:19-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Note Paul saying” I’ve told you this now and before this many times over . So it’s a really important matter to Paul that they accept and hear that part about how they now live after they have believed

Believers should know this ort along with everything else it’s really important because it’s what guides our behavior and gives us the means for repentance and should affect our conscience

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Wonderful quotes but slightly lacking in explanations. I can use all the quotes you provided, with likely different assumptions about what they mean, to prove my points against you. Throwing quotes around proves nothing, the assumptions behind your logic and how you apply your logic says far more. Jesus did not use a different set of scriptures than the Pharisees did, He used different assumptions and logic.

 

[GWH]

Wonderful quotes but slightly lacking in explanations. I can use all the quotes you provided, with likely different assumptions about what they mean, to prove my points against you. Throwing quotes around proves nothing, the assumptions behind your logic and how you apply your logic says far more. Jesus did not use a different set of scriptures than the Pharisees did, He used different assumptions and logic.

Yes, Jesus revealed a NT, and Paul revealed that the OT/GW includes the Gentiles.

 

[Roger316]

Can a christian apososate the faith?

Anyone can apostate. The question is, will they?

 

[GWH]

Can a christian apososate the faith?

Heb. 6:4-6 indicates that only believers can commit apostasy.
Unbelievers can repent of atheism and become believers.
Apostate believers become unbelievers, who are so corrupt they will never again repent per Heb. 6:4-6.

 

[HeIsHere]

Heb. 6:4-6 indicates that only believers can commit apostasy.
Unbelievers can repent of atheism and become believers.
Apostate believers become unbelievers, who are so corrupt they will never again repent per Heb. 6:4-6.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is stating being born from above is once and one cannot be born again, again ..unlike the animal sacrifices which needed to be repeated.

Therefore the author is telling the audience to stop trying to repeat what is a one time event, go onto maturity your justification is secure.

 

[Genez]

Just because you desire to be wrong doesn't mean that I have to correct you.

I like that...

"Just because you desire to be wrong doesn't mean that I have to correct you."​

​

.​

 

[Genez]

I like this question....
Because so many serious Biblical studies get it so wrong....

For this answer....we need those who love Science Fiction.
Especially those who like time travel movies.

We, as humans in our mortal coil are in the third dimension....we know about the 4th dimension (time) and watch it move.
We have zero ability to have any affect on time whatsoever. It continues to move regardless of anything we do.

However God is not limited in this way.
God is timeless.
God is without beginning or end just because.....

God also can traverse dimensions....and has.

The scriptures talk about us one day being "face to face" with God and able to know God.....
The best we can currently do is apprehend God.....comprehension is way beyond our abilities as 3 dimensional beings.
It's just like licking your elbow....you think you can but....nope....not happening either.

So....the "face to face" and "being with the Lord in Heaven" are synonymous with existing in the 4th dimension with God.
Where, yes, time has meaning....but we can traverse it much like we can traverse 3-D spaces now.

So.....
IF (big, huge, "IF") you decide to humble and prostrate yourself to God, His Decrees, His desires.....

You have then become a resident in Heaven who has been there for thousands of years and will be there for thousands of years more.

Told ya.....total mind bender.

If one theoretically enters the speed of light?
Time stands still.

Scripture tells us... "God is light." 1 John 1:5

Eternal = having no beginning and no end. Timeless.

.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Wonderful quotes but slightly lacking in explanations. I can use all the quotes you provided, with likely different assumptions about what they mean, to prove my points against you. Throwing quotes around proves nothing, the assumptions behind your logic and how you apply your logic says far more. Jesus did not use a different set of scriptures than the Pharisees did, He used different assumptions and logic.

Right I’m somehow “ interpreting “ this

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And this …. It really needs “interpreting “
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-8‬ ‭NIV‬‬

We aren’t supposed to interpret but rather hear and believe and let the faith it creates guide us . Things like I just quoted should bring a sober ness to us
That’s the reason Paul always preached it it should bring clarity but we often simply reject the idea and explain why it’s not true but Paul always wrote this same concept in his epistles it’s meant for repentance

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. ( it’s hard to just reject what he said there and “ interpret “ it to mean another thing because he said it so clearly and plainly ) Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭NIV‬‬

It requires a person to actually believe what’s being said to the church by the apostle however . Paul’s point isn’t “ you must be perfect now if you make a mistake your dead “ Paul’s point is meant to bring minds here

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-47‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Repentance is in the doctrine regardless of it’s Jesus or Paul or Peter and they make it really plain so no one needs special revelation to grasp or interpret it .

But it’s okay if you don’t agree I’m used to that worth the ultra grace instant salvation that has none of the requirements which god stated when he spoke salvation forth

 

[Fillan]

Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life (John 5:24)

 

[PaulThomson]

Heb. 6:4-6 indicates that only believers can commit apostasy.
Unbelievers can repent of atheism and become believers.
Apostate believers become unbelievers, who are so corrupt they will never again repent per Heb. 6:4-6.

This low opinion of God’s love and mercy is the reason sommany people are fixated on whether salvation can be lost. If one believes there is a line one can cross after which there is no way back into communion with God, one will become obsessed with proving that one can or cannot lose one's salvation. The myth of an unforgivable sin is the root of this centuries old debate.

 

[PaulThomson]

Eternal salvation is the once off permanent thing.. believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

Daily salvation, daily service .. is different and dependent on serving

The woman who had the issue of blood for 12 years was saved by being healed. How does that fit into your equivocal definition of salvation?

 

[Magenta]

The myth of an unforgivable sin is the root of this centuries old debate.

Mark 3 verses 28-29 / Matthew 12 verses 31-32 / Luke 12 verse 10 ~ Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.