Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
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unclefester
Guest
Honestly just-me ... I get a stronger sense that many don't want to admit that we have a New Covenant in Jesus Christ. My two cents worth.
1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
Carefully note the colon, "The most common use of the colon is to inform the reader that what follows the colon proves, explains, or lists elements of what preceded it."
OK, then, what follows the colon that explains the preceding?
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Now show me some verses for "the Lord's supper" and Ishtar.
Carefully note the colon, "The most common use of the colon is to inform the reader that what follows the colon proves, explains, or lists elements of what preceded it."
OK, then, what follows the colon that explains the preceding?
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Now show me some verses for "the Lord's supper" and Ishtar.
And many don't want to admit that all the teachings of Jesus were under the old covenant before His crucifixion. Henceforth, Jesus connects the old with the new, so I don't see the discrepancy between the two, one being more relevant than the other.
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unclefester
Guest
The substance and the fulfillment of all things written in God's Word (Christ) isn't more relevant than the shadows that pointed to Him ? And you don't see the discrepancy ?? The defence rests your honour.
you're trying to say the Lord's Supper is only for "Passover"...correct?
you said Paul told told them NOT to take the Lord's Supper when they come together.
you cherry-picked that single verse and misapplied what he said:
Paul blames them for their discord and neglect and contempt of the poor, at the Lord's supper (v. 17-22)
He reminds them of WHY they are there - The Lord's Supper (v. 23-26)
He warns them about profaning the Lord's Supper by eating the bread and drinking the wine NOT discerning the body and blood of Christ - people who partake the Lord's Supper unworthily sin against the body and blood of Christ (v 27-32)
He tells them if they are hungry and can not refrain from profaning the Love Feast and Lord's Supper - eat at home! ( v.33-34)
BEHOLD:
summary of these passages:
Disorderly Assemblies. The Abuse of Love Feasts. The Lord's Supper Profaned. The Lesson from Christ's Appointment of the Ordinance. Must Be Eaten with Solemn Reverence.
1 Corinthians 11
The Lord’s Supper
17But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,d 19for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
23For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is fore you. Do this in remembrance of me.”f 25In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
27Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. 28Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.g 31But if we judgedh ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplinedi so that we may not be condemned along with the world.
33So then, my brothers,j when you come together to eat, wait for one another— 34if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment. About the other things I will give directions when I come.
When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat.
cherry picked and misapplied.
to suit your false doctrine.
stop it.
t.y.
Paul plainly says we do not come together to keep "the Lord's supper" but he does instruct a Gentile church to keep the Feast of Unleavend Bread.
No, I did NOT SAY THAT, Paul did...
1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
OK, please show me where Paul or anyone else for that matter, instructs the chruch to keep "the Lord's supper".
OK, let's look at the night that the Lord Jesus was betrayed...
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
and also this...
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
And this occurred when?
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
He changed the symbols of the Passover from a lamb, unleavend bread and bitter herbs to unleavened bread (the symbol of His broken body) and wine (the symbol of His blood) and did so on the Passover and instituted the New Covenant method of keeping the Passover.
What you have quoted proves what? Paul gave instruction not to eat the Lord's supper, but to take the New Covenant Passover as Jesus Christ instituted on the night before His crucifixion.
Since I have cherry-picked that verse, show me all the other verses that instruct us to keep "the Lord's supper".
And we have no indication from the New Testament that Jesus taught the church to stop observing Passover.
So we have:
1) God told His people to celebrate Passover perpetually.
2) Jesus celebrated Passover with His disciples and told them to do it in remembrance of Him
3) There's no indication from Jesus that He wanted them to stop observing Passover.
4) There's no teaching from Jesus to celebrate "the Lord's Supper" as anything different than breaking bread and wine on Passover.
And somehow from all that we get the idea that Jesus did away with Passover. And then to top it all off, there are some people who throw Easter in the mix, even though it's never mentioned in Scripture.
Seems like some faulty logic to me.
I don't see how these scriptures definitively teach to celebrate a new "ceremony" that replaces Passover. Isn't it just as logical say they're describing how they ate lunch when the fellowshipped?
So why didn't Jesus or any of the disciples say that this was superceding Passover? That's kind of a big inference to make. And one that doesn't seem very strong in these Scriptures about "the Lord's Supper"?
no He didn't.
He told them the bread and wine were the New Covenant in His blood, and His body broken for them.
if you are in Christ, you have PASSED OVER from death to life.
He fulfilled it. full stop.
not to mention - you said you're not jewish, so there's no possibility your ancestors were in Egypt, delivered out in the Exodus.
okay?
why people can't read the Historical Account of ancient Israel and see God's Plan in the types and shadows leading to the ONCE FOR ALL TIME PASSOVER LAMB....i will never know.
He is A REAL LITERAL PERSON...THE SON OF GOD AND REDEEMER.
He is not blood on a lintel or a roasted animal.
you weren't a slave in Egypt.
but God Bless you in your modernized and adapted observance of days moons and feast and days and years.
whatever they may be...
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Why would Jesus have us remember the passover of the jews being freed from egypt? Sorry my friend, this does not make sense. I can;t get my arm around this no matter how hard I try
Not to mention. Passover was once a year And the old covenant.. According to paul, Christ said of this, Do OFTEN in remembrance of me, and it is the new covenant.
The new replaced the old etc..
Passover was about one covenant and one death to seal that covenant. If you only want to remember and proclaim that once a year, that's your business. There's obviously people who like to do it more than that.
And we have no indication from the New Testament that Jesus taught the church to stop observing Passover.
So we have:
1) God told His people to celebrate Passover perpetually.
2) Jesus celebrated Passover with His disciples and told them to do it in remembrance of Him
3) There's no indication from Jesus that He wanted them to stop observing Passover.
4) There's no teaching from Jesus to celebrate "the Lord's Supper" as anything different than breaking bread and wine on Passover.
And somehow from all that we get the idea that Jesus did away with Passover. And then to top it all off, there are some people who throw Easter in the mix, even though it's never mentioned in Scripture.
Seems like some faulty logic to me.
Actually it is mentioned, but those who keep it will deny this and again accuse me of taking verses out of context...
Eze 8:16 And he brought me into the inner court of the LORD'S house, and, behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about five and twenty men, with their backs toward the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east; and they worshipped the sun toward the east.
Ezekiel is describing a sunrise service here. Now when in the world do people do this? Every week? Nope, once a year at the celebration of Ishtar.
Still on this?
The law was a schoolmaster pointing to Jesus.
He fulfilled.
We couldn't.
Anyone who thinks keeping one iota of the types and shadows of the law will excuse them from the rest-(grace, mercy, judgement), is damned.
Anyone who condemns the law is damned also.
- How hard can this be?
Notice what Jesus said. - (Read Matthew 7) - (In case you didn't know that's total Messiah work) - as in none of us but Him.
"I must decrease, so He can increase", (as John the baptist said). Total sanctification.
Why do we keep arguing about this? The clarity is total and effectual. - (Jesus did it!) - So follow ye Him. - (Not in the precepts, but in the grace, mercy, and judgement).
The law was a schoolmaster pointing to Jesus.
He fulfilled.
We couldn't.
Anyone who thinks keeping one iota of the types and shadows of the law will excuse them from the rest-(grace, mercy, judgement), is damned.
Anyone who condemns the law is damned also.
- How hard can this be?
Notice what Jesus said. - (Read Matthew 7) - (In case you didn't know that's total Messiah work) - as in none of us but Him.
"I must decrease, so He can increase", (as John the baptist said). Total sanctification.
Why do we keep arguing about this? The clarity is total and effectual. - (Jesus did it!) - So follow ye Him. - (Not in the precepts, but in the grace, mercy, and judgement).
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Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
Hmmm, who you gonna believe here? Christ and Paul, or Zone? My money is on Christ and Paul.
Then why will He keep it again when He returns and establishes His Kingdom on earth?
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.
Mar 14:23 And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
Mar 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
Mar 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
He will once again observe the Passover in the Kingdom of God.
What has that to do with GOD'S FEASTS?
Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
I suspect you do not even know that Judah was only one tribe among thirteen. To say that all Israelites are Jewish is like saying all Americans are Pennsylvanians.
No, the MBFM you are blathering is not OK.
I have wondered that myself. Teh Passover of the Old Testament being a type and shadow of the Passover of the New Testament. Armed with this knowledge, why do people dismiss the Passover adn dive headlong into a celebration of Ishtar?
First of all, let's consider some verses...
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them (them who? ancient Israel) for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition (who's admonition? OUR admonition), upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Notice "to come" is future tense? This was written twenty some years after the crucifixion. So it was not all fulfilled at the crucifixion, there is more to come.
Now if all these things are examples for our admonition and also shadows of things to come, we should understand them...
The Passover in Egypt was a shadow of a future event, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. What was Egypt a type of? Sin! Just as Christ freed Israel from Egypt (the shadow of sin), He frees us from Spiritual Egypt, our sins! The lamb's blood was the shadow of His blood. The Death Angel could not enter any home with lamb's blood on the door, and with Christ's blood on the lintel and posts or our heart, eternal death has no power over us. So, yes we have come out of Egypt! But then, standing on a hilltop on a certain morning at sunrise, does not teach this marvelous truth.
but God Bless you in your modernized and adapted observance of days moons and feast and days and years.
whatever they may be...
Why thank you and He already has with the wonderful truth of salvation through Christ.
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you know.....this is nigh on EVIL.
judaizers abound, and you appear to be teaching some other gospel and some other Christ.
how dare you twist Paul's teaching.
this is the THIRD time you've been corrected on this.
apparently you didn't read (Paul's warnings) on how serious this is.
you didn't read it - if you did, it is closed to your understanding.
probably due to profaning it.
i'll leave you to your fate on this.
God have mercy on your soul.
you're on your own.
still blind.
focused on WHAT THE FEAST SIGNIFIED AND NOT HOW HE FULFILLED IT.
once again, i'll post this for any who do not understand - as for you. do as you will.
Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html
what i find revealing is that everytime i post this expository teaching by Elin the judaizers fall SILENT.
not one word.
interesting.
go read it...then come back and tell me about unleavened bread and passover.
actually, please don't.
i reject your doctrine.
symbols?
"method"
you are in the process of falling away. anyone who listens to you deserves what they get.
the fruit of the Hebrew Roots Movement is evident.
people will not heed the warnings the Hebrews themselves got.
no, you have gentiles who willing do what the elect Hebrews did not do.
the writer wrote he (they - the apostles) were convinced of BETTER things of those who were leaving the Old and entering into the New. you don't understand it. it's blurry letters on a page to you.
apparently the HR apostates don't care what God has said about His Son.
they like animal blood on lintels and roasted sacrifices better.
Jesus was just explaining it all so they could observe it better.
without the lamb of course....that would be over the top...wouldn't it.
the Passover was fulfilled ON THE CROSS WHEN THE LAMB WAS SLAIN, and as He was laid in that TOMB.
it's over.
unless you want to recrucify Him over and over.
you weren't in Egypt...were you?
are you fearful of the death angel?
1 Corinthians 11
The Lord’s Supper
17But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,d 19for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. 21For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
WHEN DO CHRISTIANS COME TOGETHER AS A CHURCH?
ONCE A YEAR?
IN JERUSALEM?
goodbye.
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Let me approach this a little differently, if I may.
What would a good reason Jesus would have us remember it? Think about it and pray about it, and see what you can find. What lessons or encouragement could we we gain from celebrating a telling the story of Egypt's release from slavery?
Put yourself on the other side of the table for a bit and see what you can come up with.
Matt