Is this teaching still valid for the NT Christian?

[Hizikyah]

Matt 7:12, "So then, whatever you desire that others would do to and for you, even so do also to and for them, for this is (sums up) the Law and the Prophets."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

 

[Hizikyah]

yeah...here's a kleenex

I did no such thing!

what is actually occurring is that you cannot object because I wrote what is true about your personal opinions

what do you think of Paul's letters? do you accept them as valid scripture?

if you do, why do you ignore what they teach?

I took me 5 minutes to reply, and you said this:

and Paul?

gonna answer that one?

yet I am still waiting for more than an hour for your reply concenring this matter:

"Here is a kleenex" oh you are real sincere....

I believe people isolate Paul's writings and filter the entire word through them as most curches near exclusively read Paul.

I believe the is much truth and depth in his writings, yet they are misunderstood by many. He lived in a diffent time and those who know nothing of his upbringing, culture, etc. almost certianly twist his words.

I have one question (multi part) for you concerning Paul,

what do you think about why this was written?

Is it true?

Has any other book or writer of Scripture ever been explained in this way?

What can we take from this?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

because if we take the whole word we can see:

Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."

Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."

 

[FreeNChrist]

I took me 5 minutes to reply, and you said this:



yet I am still waiting for more than an hour for your reply concenring this matter:

That is merely your notion of what Christians are doing. What we are actually doing is correctly interpreting the OT by the NT. Whereas you incorrectly try to interpret the NT by the OT. Which is the reason for your confusion.

 

[Hizikyah]

That is merely your notion of what Christians are doing. What we are actually doing is correctly interpreting the OT by the NT. Whereas you incorrectly try to interpret the NT by the OT. Which is the reason for your confusion.

First that was for another member, but it's ok to comment on it. However, you did not answer of of the questions, you glossed over them, bundled them up and accused me of incorrect understandin, without having dealt with the NT verse in question....

 

[Grandpa]

Matt 7:12, "So then, whatever you desire that others would do to and for you, even so do also to and for them, for this is (sums up) the Law and the Prophets."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."

So you give up then. You have mixed law and grace for so long you have no idea where one ends and where one begins.

John1:17 [FONT=&quot]For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Galatians 3:10-14
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you really think that actually living by faith in Christ will result in "couch potato Christianity"?? Really?

I do believe some people think it does. and end up doing that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Without the Law of Sacrifice there would be no mercy, the only reason we have mercy is because Yahshua/Jesus gave Himself up in our place. The greatest gift of mercy ever given was by the Law and will of the Most High.

Is there anything not true about that?

The law did not give you Christ, it was given to lead you to Christ.

Huge difference.

 

[Hizikyah]

So you give up then. You have mixed law and grace for so long you have no idea where one ends and where one begins.

John1:17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Galatians 3:10-14

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

LOL what" I gove up? What? or did you just ignore what is written?

There are two ditches on the road, legalism and hyper grace, between those 2 ditches is a MOUNTAIN:

Revelation 14:12 - Parallel Verses

The Scriptures - Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Yah and the belief of יהושע.

New American Standard Bible - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

New International Version - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

New Living Translation - This means that God's holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Jesus.

You are isoloating Paul, as his own writings call for obedience...

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."


I believe It is those that think Paul taught not to follow the Law of the Creator is what is causing the error...


1 Corinthians 7:19, "For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God?"


Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."


Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"


Romans 7:7, Shall we therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet."


Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."


Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."


Acts 21:24, "Take them, and be purified with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads. Then everyone will know that those things they were informed about you (forsaking the Law), were lies, and that you, yourself, walk orderly, and keep the Law."


Romans 7:12, "Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous."


Ephesians 6:2-3, "Honor your father and mother; which is the first commandment with a promise: That it may be well with you, and you may live long on the earth."


Galatians 3:13,(KJV) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us, for it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangeth on a tree."


2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."


I want to point out that the words that are in italics are ADDED:


Ephesians 2:15-16, (NKJV), "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. "


Not only odes the next verse tell us what was abolished, but when you remove the ADDED words the meaning changes.


Ephesians 2:15-16, "Abolishing the enmity Law, the Commandments, and the Ordinances, through His own flesh, in order to create in Himself one new man from the two; making peace, That would reconcile both in one body to YHWH through the sacrifice--having killed the enmity through Himself."


“enmity” is word # G2190
Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon) Feminine of G2190; hostility; by implication a reason for opposition:—enmity, hatred.


He abolished the hatred of the Law...


Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), YHWH; for it his not subject to the Law of YHWH, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please YHWH."


Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love YHWH your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the Law."

Yaaqob 2:26, "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so the faith without works is dead also."

Faith + no works = dead

Works + no faith = dead

We need faith and works, AND OUR FAITH AND OUR WORKS HAS TO BE POINTED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION

Titus 1:16, "They profess that they know YHWH, but by their works they deny Him – being abominable, disobedient, and to every righteous work, reprobate."

2 Timothy 2:19, "Nevertheless, the Foundation of YHWH stands sure, having this seal: YHWH knows those who are His, because everyone who reverences the Name of YHWH departs from iniquity."


“iniquity” is word # G458 - anomia Strong's Concordance, lawlessness, Short Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, Definition: lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin
"iniquity" is: #0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law 1a) because ignorant of it1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

 

[Hizikyah]

The law did not give you Christ, it was given to lead you to Christ.

Huge difference.

Bait and switch, you act like I said something I didnt and then use it to say Im wrong.

I can sum it up easily;

Yahshua, it means YHWH is our Salvation.

 

[FreeNChrist]

First that was for another member, but it's ok to comment on it. However, you did not answer of of the questions, you glossed over them, bundled them up and accused me of incorrect understandin, without having dealt with the NT verse in question....

No. What I did was correct your mistaken notion, and explain why your understanding is incorrect.

 

[Magenta]

Yahshua, it means YHWH is our Salvation.

 

[Hizikyah]

No. What I did was correct your mistaken notion, and explain why your understanding is incorrect.

If you say so... But where did you answer this:

concerning Paul,

what do you think about why this was written?

Is it true?

Has any other book or writer of Scripture ever been explained in this way?

What can we take from this?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

 

[FreeNChrist]

If you say so... But where did you answer this:

concerning Paul,

what do you think about why this was written?

Is it true?

Has any other book or writer of Scripture ever been explained in this way?

What can we take from this?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Talk about a bait n switch......

 

[Hizikyah]

Talk about a bait n switch......

No this was the topic/particular post that you stepped in on (in my conversation with Lauren), and you never answered... It is Scripture, and this is the Bible Discussion Forum...

 

[FreeNChrist]

No this was the topic/particular post that you stepped in on (in my conversation with Lauren), and you never answered... It is Scripture, and this is the Bible Discussion Forum...

LOL. Until you correct what is causing your incorrect understanding you will never correctly understand. Understand???

 

[Magenta]

​

 

[Angela53510]

19Why then serves the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up to the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3

righteousness has NEVER been by law

This is an excellent passage, thank you for posting. In Galatians 5, Paul continues on this theme of not being under the law. I believe he is writing concerning Judiazers, who were trying to get new Gentile Christians to be circumcised, and follow the law of Moses. Paul rebukes them again soundly in chapter 5 verses 1-12. But then, because they are new gentile Christians, who have no idea what is sin and what is not, Paul TEACHES them HOW to love one another. He closes with bringing them back to the results of not giving into their fleshly desires. Context again - the chapter, the book, the Bible is so important!

"13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality,impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other."
Gal 5:13-26

As you can see - there is a pretty strong sin list in Galatians in verses 19-21. Paul does NOT want these new converts turning to Judaism. But, there are still right ways and wrong ways to live when you are loving God and your brother. AND, people need to actually be taught these things. I truly believe that because we read the Word of God and believe it, the Holy Spirit will indeed lead us to see the areas that need transforming. Again, transformation in the New Testament is always in the passive imperative.

Passive imperative:
Passive means God does it to us.
Imperative means God commands us to do it!
So we have a responsiblity. It is not just about floating along, doing nothing and suddenly we are sanctified! Instead, God calls us, commands us, in fact to read, learn, listen and obey!

Paul has made it very clear we do not live under the law, and we are not bound by the law in Galatians! Hallelujah! BUT, he also talks about the flesh and the havoc it can wreak! So we do need to read, pray, and obey the admonitions to walk in the Spirit not the flesh! Yes, we are given the Holy Spirit when we are saved! Yes, the Spirit will never leave us! But, we can still walk in the flesh, if we either are not aware of God's expectations, because we have not studied the Word and hidden it in our hearts, or we are willfully defying God, and defying the Holy Spirit.

We are under a great obligation to walk in the Spirit. But if we always did - would these warnings Paul gives in several places be necessary? We have a responsiblity to walk with the Spirit as he walks with us. That is why Christ gave us his commands, and that is why Paul so strongly says in verse 13 above that we have a choice about whether to walk in the Spirit or the flesh!

So this is not really a grace vs law issue at all! it is a flesh versus spirit issue! Let us not find ourselves defending something we all agree with, but rather, look instead at the real issues of walking in the flesh. Verse 17 so clearly states:

"For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[ you want." Gal. 5:17

Paul repeats this again in Romans 8:5:

"Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires." Romans 8:5

These are truly important instructions about how God expects us to act. Do not ignore the verses you do not like! But no condemnation or judgement on anyone in this forum. Just the deep theology behind what walking in the Spirit really means!

 

[Hizikyah]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yahanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."[/FONT]

 

[LaurenTM]

I believe people isolate Paul's writings and filter the entire word through them as most curches near exclusively read Paul.

I believe the is much truth and depth in his writings, yet they are misunderstood by many. He lived in a diffent time and those who know nothing of his upbringing, culture, etc. almost certianly twist his words.

do where did I say anything that was not true or personally attack you?

this is not my first rodeo...or BDF discussion with folks who place less value on Paul's letters than on the rest of the Bible

so then, you simply do NOT believe that all scripture is God breathed

you believe that YOU get to choose what YOU believe is valuable according to your preformed and wrongly taught opinions

OF COURSE!!! you do not really see much value in Paul's letters because if you did? you would have to re-arrange your entire philosophy

you actually do NOT believe ALL of the Bible, yet you want to teach the rest of us

now that's nerve!!!

but exactly what I stated in the first place and which you would prefer no one brings to light

just so very deceitful IMO

 

[LaurenTM]

Yahshua seems to disagree because He says the Law properly understood is to trat others as we want to be treated.

it's just YOU

YOU disagree...

Jesus is fine with what we said because it agrees with what scripture reveals to those who don't chop up the Bible and disagree with the Apostle Paul