Jesus: Both Son and Father?

[joefizz]

Well entities or deitys might be better words accept for Jesus because we know he was born as a man through the holy spirit,becoming fully man and fully God though I get what you are saying.

whoops I meant "except" not "accept" in this ^^^ above post.

 

[BillG]

NOOO,
There are 2 groups of believers, the 144k (the smaller group) - these are the faithful believers (faithful because they know who God is). These are marked by the Holy spirit and are set apart so that they are not harmed during tribulation. God protects them. These are also called the church of Philadelphia (rev 3:7). These form the new Jerusalem, the temple of God. God dwells in them as the Holy spirit. If you read about the dimensions of the New Jerusalem, you find out that it is 144 something something in angelic measurements of men. And, it's precious stones are similar to those that describe God. this group is also spiritually referred to as remnants of Judea or Judea.

The other group of believers are considered unfaithful. These are what Jesus referred to us Jerusalem when He kept lamenting because they killed the prophets (didn't understand the message). He says He tried to cover them as a hen covers her chicks but they wouldn't listen. Jerusalem doesn't even know her time of visitation and because of this, the enemies will surround her, hem her from all the sides and crush her. This group is also called the church of Smyrna - they must die to receive a crown of life a their gift. They will undergo the great tribulation and will be killed by Antichrist. They overcome the Antichrist by the blood of the lamb.

"Therefore, when you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, let those in Judea flee to the mountains..."

This 2 groups were also prophesied by Jeremiah:

Jer 24:1After Jehoiachin[SUP]a[/SUP] son of Jehoiakim king of Judah and the officials, the skilled workers and the artisans of Judah were carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, the Lordshowed me two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple of the Lord. 2One basket had very good figs, like those that ripen early; the other basket had very bad figs, so bad they could not be eaten.3Then the Lord asked me, “What do you see, Jeremiah?”“Figs,” I answered. “The good ones are very good, but the bad ones are so bad they cannot be eaten.”4Then the word of the Lord came to me: 5“This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good figs, I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I sent away from this place to the land of the Babylonians.[SUP]b[/SUP] 6My eyes will watch over them for their good, and I will bring them back to this land. I will build them up and not tear them down; I will plant them and not uproot them. 7I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the Lord. They will be my people, and I will be their God, for they will return to me with all their heart.8“ ‘But like the bad figs, which are so bad they cannot be eaten,’ says the Lord, ‘so will I deal with Zedekiah king of Judah, his officials and the survivors from Jerusalem, whether they remain in this land or live in Egypt. 9I will make them abhorrent and an offense to all the kingdoms of the earth, a reproach and a byword, a curse[SUP]c[/SUP] and an object of ridicule, wherever I banish them. 10I will send the sword, famine and plague against them until they are destroyed from the land I gave to them and their ancestors.’ ”


This prophesy in reality applied to Daniel and other captives from Judea who the Lord preserved in Babylon. But in real real real reality, it also applies to the people in end times (us- Judea and Jerusalem). We are in babylon now(kingdom ruled by Antichrist). Some will be preserved some will perish in the name of the Lord- doesn't mean they will be condemned to hell, but they'll face tribulations.

Good night guyz, got to go to bed.

The Church of Philadelphia.

That letter to the Church just soothes my soul.
Not for me as such, though it's Jesus saying you have little strength, I know this and I know your heart is for me.

So how does the 144k relate to this?
Is it an actual figure?

You say angelic measurement.
What is that?

Not being obtuse just not getting what you are saying.

 

[carl11]

If you believe the Christ and the Father are the same person, you do.

SovereignGrace but you believe Christ is God do you not ? Yet you will say God is the father. So then with that in mind Christ is God the father.

 

[bluto]

You logic/reasoning is flawed. Yes God the Father is the Savior according to Isaiah 43:11. And Luke 2:11 says, "for today in the city of David there has been born for you a SAVIOR, who is Christ the Lord." God the Father is identified in Scripture as the Lord and at 1 Corinthians 8:6 it says, "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."

Since the text says there is only one Lord who is Jesus Christ does this mean that God the Father is not the Lord? Of course not because there is only one God who share the same exact nature and essence. They are however, three distinct persons, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I'll give you another example of what I mean. It says at Isaiah 44:6, "Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And His Redeemer, the Lord of hosts; I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Now look at Revelation 1:17 where Jesus is talking, "Do not be afraid, I am the first and the last." Are there two first and last carl? Are there two Lords? Are there two Saviors or two Redeemers? Of course not. There is only one God who chose to identify Himself in the Bible as three distinct persons. Not modes, not roles and not aspects. Any more questions? PS: And don't take this personally but I think you have a problem of not knowing how to reconcile what appears to be contradictions in the Bible. There are no contradictions.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Bunped for carl.

 

[carl11]

Bunped for carl.

?? post #257

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is the authority of the son addressing the authority of the Father. Christ was demonstrating to us how to relate to the Father- we are the sons eventually.

No. The Son was praying to His Father. There are three Persons in the Godhead, not three authorities.

 

[SovereignGrace]

SovereignGrace but you believe Christ is God do you not ? Yet you will say God is the father. So then with that in mind Christ is God the father.

There is a Godhead, where God the Father, God the Son & God the Spirit are one Being. God the Father is not God the Son.

 

[bluto]

What is flawed is that the diagram that many used to show that the son is not the father but yet he is God and God is the father.

I’m not saying there are contradictions because there are none we may have “apparent” contradictions but that is all that it is apparent.

Come on carl, why would you depend on diagrams? The truth be known no diagram or explanation can replace studying your Bible. The purpose of the diagrams and explanations is to explain the Trinty. I'll give you an example. The Trinity is like water. Water can be in the form of ice, and it can be in the form of steam. Or the Trinity is like a three leaf clover. Three leaves represent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet the clover itself is one clover.

I'm going to post what I said to apostolic yesterday who is a oneness pentecostal who believes (like you) that Jesus is God the Father, He is NOT God the Father but God the Son. Please read my explnation which is from the Bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them.

You know apostolic you have said on a couple occasions that you are not a Modalist. Yet you just said above, "I do however believe that the titles, Father, Son and Holy Ghost Or (Holy Spirit) however you prefer it refer to three different "ASPECTS" of God's relationship to humanity." The following is the definition of "Modalism."

mod·al·ism
ˈmodlˌizəm/
noun
noun: modalism

• 1.
  Theology
  the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature.

Now pay attention because this is important. The Bible "DOES NOT" identify God by "modes, roles, or aspects. The Bible does identify God by (1) His names, (2) His titles, (3) His unique attributes, (4) His unique actions, (5) His worship. I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I am confident this list is comprehensive and your more than welcome to add to the list, this goes for anybody else.

The doctrine of the trinity cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sense of the term "theology" the "study" or knowledge" of God, and is drawn from the whole Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It is the doctrin that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a harmonization of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be undetstood from a view that accounts for ALL of the Bible.

If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are three and ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the COMBINATION of the literary means I listed above. These persons are variously ...

1) CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly of indirectly....usually both. We already know God the Father is called God, YHWH, and Lord. Jesus is called God and Lord. The Holy Spirit is identified or called God at Acts 5:3,4.

2) RECOGNIZED with the TITLES of God, (Lord, King, Savior, Redeemer, etc.)

3) ATTRIBUTED with UNIQUE characteristics of God, (creation, orgin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation. The Holy Spirit is identified at Genesis 1:2 as "moving over the waters."

4) CREDITED with the UNIQUE characteristics of God (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscient, eternality, etc.)

5) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to GOD ALONE.

Keep in mind I am not saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of thes 5. Nor am I saying that each person of the tirntiy is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.

I am saying that:
1) that each person of the trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above and
2) ONLY the three persons of the trinity receive some COMBINATION of these 5 literaly means.

For example, the Bible does not call anyone "God" (in the proper sense--meaning THE one and only God to whom it does not attribute the UNIQUE actions and UNIQUE attributes of God. I think you get my point and remember, theology is not salvation. It is in Christ that we find God fully and sufficiently manifested to us human beings, AS a human being and for His own glory. And it is only through His Holy Spirit that we can know Him and be saved by His grace. Any questions?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[SovereignGrace]

Well entities or deitys might be better words accept for Jesus because we know he was born as a man through the holy spirit,becoming fully man and fully God though I get what you are saying.

I think persons describes them best. Policemen are persons, have authority, are authoritative figures, but are persons. God is three persons in the Godhead, are not authority figures, but do have all authority, both in heaven and on earth.

 

[MarcR]

i think a good case can be made that the 144k are one and the same with 'the great multitude no man can number' -- 144k symbolically described, multitude, more literally described. course i could be way off, and many people abhor that explanation and are adamant that the 144k is a literal number of specific people. i don't "know" -- i just say, such a case can be made.

i think a good case can be made that the 144k are one and the same with 'the great multitude no man can number'

Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV


I don't see how that works. The 144k are supposed to come from the tribes of Israel.

 

[jb]

The 'heresy' you confronted was Lucy's sarcastic response to Old Hermit NOT her belief.

If you had read the thread carefully you would have seen that.

I did read it carefully and her reply was to nehemiah6, not oldhermit, and there was no hint of sarcasm!

Maybe you should try reading the thread carefully before getting on your high horse and throwing nasty rude comments at people!

 

[carl11]

There is a Godhead, where God the Father, God the Son & God the Spirit are one Being. God the Father is not God the Son.

Again it stands to reason that if God who is Christ who never ceased to be God and yet we call the father God then Christ also has to be considered to be the father. Same goes with the holy spirit who also is God which identifies with Christ and with the father.

 

[bluto]

Again it stands to reason that if God who is Christ who never ceased to be God and yet we call the father God then Christ also has to be considered to be the father. Same goes with the holy spirit who also is God which identifies with Christ and with the father.

Ok carl, let's test you on this. Mark 1:11 says the following, "and a voice came out of the heavens: Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." Does it stand to reason carl that if Jesus is really God the Father would He be calling himself out of the heavens saying I am my own beloved Son? Now, how would you interprete the verse since you believe Jesus is God the Father? Think man, think?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Locutus]

i think a good case can be made that the 144k are one and the same with 'the great multitude no man can number' -- 144k symbolically described, multitude, more literally described. course i could be way off, and many people abhor that explanation and are adamant that the 144k is a literal number of specific people. i don't "know" -- i just say, such a case can be made.

Not really Bones, there are actually two issues here, their identity and WHEN.

Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth.

Rev 14:4 These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they [fn]have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

We know that the are from the tribes of Israel because John states so earlier:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

There is only one set of "144K" - John calls them first fruits, we know from James' letter that the scattered tribes had heard and accepted the gospel:

James 1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

Not only is he writing to them he is calling them the first fruits:

Jame 1:18 (Young's Literal) having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

If James is calling these dispersed persons of the 12 tribes first fruit it makes no sense to be looking for some supposed gathered of the tribes 1970+ years later and calling them the first fruits of the book of revelation as the futurist "theologies" do by either ignoring of glossing over what James wrote as if they are chopped liver.

Any persons qualifying as descendants of the 12 tribes today would not qualify as as first fruits to God and to the Lamb.

This is just another blatant contradiction in dispensational-esque "theologies:

 

[carl11]

Come on carl, why would you depend on diagrams? The truth be known no diagram or explanation can replace studying your Bible. The purpose of the diagrams and explanations is to explain the Trinty. I'll give you an example. The Trinity is like water. Water can be in the form of ice, and it can be in the form of steam. Or the Trinity is like a three leaf clover. Three leaves represent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet the clover itself is one clover.

I agree with you that there is no diagram that can represent the trinity or even explain it. I don't think you understand what I'm trying to get at. The Father who is God, who is Christ who never ceased to be God, is the Holy Spirit who is 3 persons in 1 albeit you nor I can fully understand that. The father who was depicted in the O.T. as God, Jehovah, Yahweh..etc, Christ in the N.T as God in a human form, the H.S. as dove. All are God and yet all are three persons but yet all are one.

It may seem like I am for modalism but that would be far from the truth...I just see it different. I just don't think people are looking at it from a right perspective and yet I will go back to the illustration of the famous triangle which is trying to show how it all works out and yet I see it as they do but like I said I don't think they understood what they were trying to depict. Because I could go out on a limb and say they too are showing modalism in a certain way and yet also showing that there is yet a another "God" which is called the father and yet Christ is just a little bit lower "God" than he is.

 

[garee]

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

We know that this is a prophecy of Jesus Christ who is the Son. This verse of scriptures calls him the everlasting Father. If the Father and the Son are separate, how can this be?

Two immutable attributes "one person" as "one Spirit", one work of "one faith." the baptism of the Holy Spirit,not seen.

I would call the dynamic duel. Some call the trinity.

Two is the word God uses that describes one .

Three the end of a matter.

God is not a man as us. Eternal God, eternal Spirit he has no beginning of day or end of Spirit life

 

[carl11]

Ok carl, let's test you on this. Mark 1:11 says the following, "and a voice came out of the heavens: Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased." Does it stand to reason carl that if Jesus is really God the Father would He be calling himself out of the heavens saying I am my own beloved Son? Now, how would you interprete the verse since you believe Jesus is God the Father? Think man, think?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

There is no need to think about it, it was a voice from heaven and yes the father is saying My beloved Son and yet the father is God and Christ is God; so how can the father say to the father, or God say to God My son. It also goes to say Christ who is God and never ceased to be God who is on the Cross and crying "My God My God why has thou forsaken me" Tell me how can God forsake God.

Now you might throw the part where Christ is Praying to father in the garden and now how can Christ who you say is the father be praying to the father.

If you want we could look at Jn. 20:17 Where Christ say's I ascend to my father and your father and my God and your God. Makes sense the first part no Christ goes to the Father but you could say so "The father is going to the father" or we could also say "God is going to his God"

I don't have answers to all of these and there is no way I could even explain any of this, nor would I try and I'm sure you would be also the same way.

 

[oldhermit]

“John testified saying, 'I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit. I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.'”

The divine triad is represented by Jesus who came down from heaven now standing in the flesh as part of the material world. We see the Holy Spirit himself coming down out of heaven assuming a bodily form like that of a dove thus linking the two worlds (This is the only time the Holy Spirit has ever been described as assuming any type of physical form); And the voice of the Father from heaven declaring Jesus as the Son of God. This is indeed a unique event that has no parallel. In this event we find the ONLY time all three members of the triadic unity are present in a single manifestation. It never seems to have occurred before and has not occurred since.

 

[hillbilly]

Come on carl, why would you depend on diagrams? The truth be known no diagram or explanation can replace studying your Bible. The purpose of the diagrams and explanations is to explain the Trinty. I'll give you an example. The Trinity is like water. Water can be in the form of ice, and it can be in the form of steam. Or the Trinity is like a three leaf clover. Three leaves represent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit yet the clover itself is one clover.

I'm going to post what I said to apostolic yesterday who is a oneness pentecostal who believes (like you) that Jesus is God the Father, He is NOT God the Father but God the Son. Please read my explnation which is from the Bible. If you have any questions I will be happy to answer them.

You know apostolic you have said on a couple occasions that you are not a Modalist. Yet you just said above, "I do however believe that the titles, Father, Son and Holy Ghost Or (Holy Spirit) however you prefer it refer to three different "ASPECTS" of God's relationship to humanity." The following is the definition of "Modalism."

mod·al·ism
ˈmodlˌizəm/
noun
noun: modalism

• 1.
  Theology
  the doctrine that the persons of the Trinity represent only three modes or aspects of the divine revelation, not distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature.

Now pay attention because this is important. The Bible "DOES NOT" identify God by "modes, roles, or aspects. The Bible does identify God by (1) His names, (2) His titles, (3) His unique attributes, (4) His unique actions, (5) His worship. I am not aware of any other literary, contextual means by which the Bible clearly identifies God. I could be wrong, but I am confident this list is comprehensive and your more than welcome to add to the list, this goes for anybody else.

The doctrine of the trinity cannot be understood, argued or refuted by appealing to any single passage in the Bible. That is because it is a systematic theology in the proper sense of the term "theology" the "study" or knowledge" of God, and is drawn from the whole Bible, as any valid systematic theology should be. It is the doctrin that explains the nature of the one and only true God described in the Bible, and is necessarily drawn from a harmonization of ALL of scripture and therefore can only be undetstood from a view that accounts for ALL of the Bible.

If you will examine the Bible thoroughly you should be able to quickly discover that there are three and ONLY three "persons" who are identified as God by the COMBINATION of the literary means I listed above. These persons are variously ...

1) CALLED by the NAMES of God (YHWH and its variants) either directly of indirectly....usually both. We already know God the Father is called God, YHWH, and Lord. Jesus is called God and Lord. The Holy Spirit is identified or called God at Acts 5:3,4.

2) RECOGNIZED with the TITLES of God, (Lord, King, Savior, Redeemer, etc.)

3) ATTRIBUTED with UNIQUE characteristics of God, (creation, orgin of God's word, salvation of men and/or creation. The Holy Spirit is identified at Genesis 1:2 as "moving over the waters."

4) CREDITED with the UNIQUE characteristics of God (omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscient, eternality, etc.)

5) WORSHIPED and/or given the honor, reverence and position due to GOD ALONE.

Keep in mind I am not saying that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all consistently, equally and in every mention identified as God in every place they are represented in the Bible by any combination of thes 5. Nor am I saying that each person of the tirntiy is represented equally by ALL FIVE of these means of identifying God.

I am saying that:
1) that each person of the trinity receives some COMBINATION of the 5 means of identifying and distinguishing God listed above and
2) ONLY the three persons of the trinity receive some COMBINATION of these 5 literaly means.

For example, the Bible does not call anyone "God" (in the proper sense--meaning THE one and only God to whom it does not attribute the UNIQUE actions and UNIQUE attributes of God. I think you get my point and remember, theology is not salvation. It is in Christ that we find God fully and sufficiently manifested to us human beings, AS a human being and for His own glory. And it is only through His Holy Spirit that we can know Him and be saved by His grace. Any questions?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

This is My Son in whom I am well pleased Says The Father was talking to The Son etc etc
and Jesus says I will send the Holy Spirit who will never leave or forsake you etc etc
With all these scriptures how can anyone think God is not Father, Son And Spirit
Let Us make man in Our image

 

[posthuman]

Then the Christ must have been confused, because on the cross He cried out to His Father. I guess He was crying out to Himself?

He sang the first lines of a psalm called "The Hind of the Morning"

the question to ask is "who is the Hind?" -- because He cannot deny Himself