Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[FreeGrace2]

DavidTree said:
This is not a post-trib dilemma because it is not truth according to the Scripture.

Remember, the LORD Himself is a "Post-Tribr" and gave the Commandment as to when His Second Coming is:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is total conjecture, David, and you know it!

Wow. He quoted from Matt 24 and you call it "total conjecture". I guess that's how you view verses that don't align with your view, huh.

 

[Charlie24]

Kindly point out the verses that show that. Remember, I said "more or less".

I take my numbers from Rev 6:8 and Rev 9:15. What isn't clear from 6:8 is whether the "one-fourth of the earth" refers to population or geography. If geography, and depending where, it could obviously be a lot more.


We don't have to get so literal with figures of speech. It simpy means most or all of the population. It does say "the nations", so all could be included.


OK, sure. No problem for my view.


You will need to explain why, since I just said there is no problem with children in the streets.

Recall, living mortal unbelievers who survive the Trib will enter the Millennium. They will obviously continue to populate the earth.

However, if you take Matt 5 seriously, there's going to be a lot of capital punishment going on.

Multiple posting don't like it, only going to answer the first response. Not going to have 5 arguments going at once, already told you that!

The scripture I use for more that half the population wiped out comes from Isaiah 13. I posted this last night but not sure which rapture thread it was, there are 2 going on here, you know.

Isaiah is speaking of the destruction of Babylon by the Medes and in 13:6 the Lord speaks an interlude here beginning in vs. 6,

Isaiah 13:6

"Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Scholars point out that "the day of the Lord is at hand" here is the Lord stepping in and looking into the future to the Great Tribulation, as there is only "one day of the Lord."

In vs. 12 the great loss of life during this time is compared to man being more scarce than gold, and even as scarce as the golden wedge of Ophir. This would be a loss of life unimaginable to man! This why I say well more than half.

It blends with Matt. 24:22, where Christ says,

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

These 2 verses paint a very grim picture of the great loss of life to come.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Multiple posting don't like it, only going to answer the first response. Not going to have 5 arguments going at once, already told you that!

When I respond to a post I address what is in the post. If you don't want to answer more than one point, ok.

The scripture I use for more that half the population wiped out comes from Isaiah 13. I posted this last night but not sure which rapture thread it was, there are 2 going on here, you know.

Isaiah is speaking of the destruction of Babylon by the Medes and in 13:6 the Lord speaks an interlude here beginning in vs. 6,

Isaiah 13:6

"Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty."

Scholars point out that "the day of the Lord is at hand" here is the Lord stepping in and looking into the future to the Great Tribulation, as there is only "one day of the Lord."

There is NOT "one day of the Lord". It refers to a time period. It begins when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent and continues on through the Millennial reign.

Why would the DotL inlude the Trib when He isn't here? Doesn't make sense

 

[Charlie24]

When I respond to a post I address what is in the post. If you don't want to answer more than one point, ok.


There is NOT "one day of the Lord". It refers to a time period. It begins when Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent and continues on through the Millennial reign.

Why would the DotL inlude the Trib when He isn't here? Doesn't make sense

Of course it's not "one day" as in His wrath lasts only one day! They referred to "the day of the Lord" being a one time event in scripture.

All the theologians I have read say the day of the Lord includes the 7 years of tribulation and the 1000 year reign.

It doesn't matter that He isn't there, His wrath is there, and Christ will be there at the very end of the tribulation when He destroys the anti-christ and all his many armies from many nations.

 

[Omegatime]

There is no doubt the Lord returns at the end of the tribulation but no resurrection IMO. This is the time of the judgement of the unrighteous goat/sheep to see who enters the kingdom in the flesh along with 1/3 surviving jews.

 

[ewq1938]

If you are looking at that in the post'trib view, then there is only one resurrection at or around the Second Coming.

ALL have been translated into glorified bodies, there are no natural bodies left to enter the 1000 year reign.

Do you see the dilemma of the post-trib view?

You don't understand the post-trib view. Post-trib teaches there are MANY natural bodies that enter the thousand years. On day one of the thousand years the Earth is populated and continues to be all the way to the end of the thousand years.

 

[Charlie24]

You don't understand the post-trib view. Post-trib teaches there are MANY natural bodies that enter the thousand years. On day one of the thousand years the Earth is populated and continues to be all the way to the end of the thousand years.

That is not correct my friend! Most of the world is killed during the great tribulation, they will repopulate during the reign of Christ as children are born and Israel fulfills their calling to bring them to Christ.

As I said in my last post, they failed the first time 2000 years ago but they will not fail this time!

 

[ewq1938]

There is no doubt the Lord returns at the end of the tribulation but no resurrection IMO.

Scripture ties the Lord's return with the resurrection.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Three events:

1. coming of Lord
2. the resurrection
3. The rapture


Why do you deny the resurrection happens at the coming of the Lord?

 

[ewq1938]

That is not correct my friend!

It is correct.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule (future tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

The people he will rule after Armageddon are the unsaved nations. They are the ones that satan will go deceive after he is released.

 

[Omegatime]

16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. 18 And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall[e] come the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths.

These are the unrighteous who were not saved by grace but by works

 

[Omegatime]

Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Final reaping of the earth takes place before the bowl judgements for the righteous

 

[Charlie24]

16 Then every one that survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of booths. 17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain upon them. 18 And if the family of Egypt do not go up and present themselves, then upon them shall[e] come the plague with which the Lord afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths. 19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the feast of booths.

These are the unrighteous who were not saved by grace but by works

This is Zech. 14 and a very good point, Omega.

Those saved during the tribulation and survived will be welcomed into the 1000 year reign by Christ Matt. 25:31-46, while the lost will be sentenced to everlasting punishment.

So we we see only the saved will enter the Kingdom. So how do we solve the dilemma you have presented, when it seems the lost were invited into the Kingdom? but we know they were not.

What I have read is that the saved who are invited are of the descendants of the "nations that have come against Jerusalem," or family of those from those nations, etc.

 

[Charlie24]

Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Final reaping of the earth takes place before the bowl judgements for the righteous

I have to disagree that this is the reaping you are thinking of.

If you read on down to vs. 19- 20, the blood flows to the horses bridle from the winepress of God. This is the battle of Armageddon.

The reaping from the sickle of Christ is the gathering of the nations together to reap the earth with the wrath of God in this battle where millions will die, unknow how many but a very great crowd.

 

[Runningman]

John146 said:
Have you ever thought that Jesus was referring to a Jewish rapture and no th3 body of Christ? These passages are all concerning Israel.

In addition, the Bible teaches that there is ONLY ONE resurrection for the saved, and one for the unsaved.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

This is extremely important. We know that with "resurrection" there is a "rapture" as well. So, the Bible says there is ONE event that will include the "rapture".

So now we can easily locate WHEN the "rapture" will occur; which is when the SINGLE resurrection occurs.

Since Acts 24:15 shows just TWO total resurrections, one for saved and one for unsaved, we can easily understand what Rev 20:5 teaches.

5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The red words refers to the resurrection of the unsaved, when they will appear AFTER the Millennial reign of Christ before the GWT judgment of Rev 20, before being cast into the lake of fire.

The blue words refers back to v.4 and the Tribulational martyrs. So we know exactly WHEN the saved are both resurrected AND "raptured". After the Tribulation when Christ comes back at the Second Advent.

Exactly. Notice how pre-tribbers never want to talk about the resurrection to any extent. That's because it eventually comes around to debunking the pre-trib rapture, like you just showed.

 

[Charlie24]

Exactly. Notice how pre-tribbers never want to talk about the resurrection to any extent. That's because it eventually comes around to debunking the pre-trib rapture, like you just showed.

I'm a pre-tribber and I'm available right now to answer any question you have about the resurrection.

But please think to make yourself clear on what you are saying. We don't know what you have on your mind, so you must make yourself clear as possible for the sake of getting the answer you want.

 

[Absolutely]

Exactly. Notice how pre-tribbers never want to talk about the resurrection to any extent. That's because it eventually comes around to debunking the pre-trib rapture, like you just showed.

The dead in christ rise before the living are raptured.1 thes 4

Where do you place the living gathered in rev 14:14 ?

Before the dead in Christ are resurrected?

 

[Absolutely]

Exactly. Notice how pre-tribbers never want to talk about the resurrection to any extent. That's because it eventually comes around to debunking the pre-trib rapture, like you just showed.

Double post

 

[Absolutely]

Either way. The first 3.5 years will be the anti-christ establishing his kingdom, he will take what he wants and when he wants it in this first half. Untold millions will die all over this world as he takes over.

But the second half, when he declares himself to be God, and then turns to destroy Israel, the apple of God's eye, this is when God said in Ezekiel 38, "My fury shall come up in my face" this will be God' wrath on the nations (the world) as it has never been seen before on this earth. Thank God He promised the Church by faith we will escape this awful time.

Rev. 3:10

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

You know that is a great point.
Jesus refers to keeping his remnant from the first part of the trib.
Pre TRIB rapture right there.

 

[Absolutely]

"""This is extremely important. We know that with "resurrection" there is a "rapture" as well. So, the Bible says there is ONE event that will include the "rapture".

So now we can easily locate WHEN the "rapture" will occur...."""

In mat 24
Jesus placed the second coming on horses AFTER the trib.

Later in the same chapter;
Jesus placed the rapture "before the flood"..pretrib as well as the one taken/ left. (Before the flood).....AHEM....accompanied by " WATCH AND BE READY"

Then 3 minutes later jesus places the rapture (5 wise virgins) in a pretrib setting.

But i know.....that needs changing huh?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Runningman said:
Exactly. Notice how pre-tribbers never want to talk about the resurrection to any extent. That's because it eventually comes around to debunking the pre-trib rapture, like you just showed.

I'm a pre-tribber and I'm available right now to answer any question you have about the resurrection.

Yes, I'm a pre-tribber too, and have repeatedly and extensively made numerous points about that particular Subject;
so it is simply not true for Runningman to say that "pre-tribbers NEVER want to talk about the resurrection to any extent."